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I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

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  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    As for the word al-ayyim

    Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) as having said:

    A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) [al-ayyim] must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought. They asked the Prophet of Allah (sallallaahu alyahi wa sallam): How her (virgin's) consent can be solicited? He (the Holy Prophet) said: That she keeps silence.

    [Sahih Muslim Hadith No. 1419]


    Imaam al-Nawawi has mentioned the following under this hadith [paraphrase of]

    The scholars have said that the ayyim, here, refers to the thayyib [a deflowered but unmarried woman, widow, divorcee] just like the other narration explains it [to be].

    al-Qaadi said the scholars differed in regards to the intended meaning of al-ayyim here despite the agreement of the scholars of the language that it is used for a woman who does not have any spouse whether she is young or old, a virgin or a non-virgin.

    al-Qaadi said that the scholars differed in regards to the intended meaning here. The scholars of al-Hijaaz and the masses of the jurists said that the intended meaning is al-thayyib [a deflowered but unmarried woman, widow, diforcee]. They have drawn evidence from the fact that the word has been used in another narration which makes it clear that it means al-thayyib. They have also drawn evidence from the fact that it is placed in opposition to the virgin and that it is most often used in the language to mean al-thayyib.

    Volume 9 Page 203


    al-thayyib

    فالثيب من النساء من زالت عذرتها ، وقد اختلف في تعريفها شرعا، فعند الأحناف هي من لم تتزوج، وعند الشافعية والحنابلة: هي الموطوءة في القبل، سواء كان الوطء حلالا أو حراما، أو كان وهي نائمة، وهي تقابل البكر

    [Paraphrase] A woman who is termed al-thayyib is one who has lost her virginity. The scholars have differed in regards to the legislative understanding of the word. The Shaafi'i and Hanaabilah say that it refers to the woman who has had sexual intercourse in the vagina regardless of if the intercourse was permissible or impermissible, whether she was asleep [when it took place] and she is the opposite of the bikr [virgin].


    As for this word [al-ayyim], if one were to claim it meant widow, they could still build a case to support it. This is unlike and in contrast to anyone making claims that a man who has a Haaja in a woman has a need to act as her matchmaker.

    One needs to not only understand the dictionary usage of the word but also how it is used in Islamic legislation. Mere literal translations are not how a language is understood.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    The OP can rest assured that the English translation he was directed to was quite accurate.

    Here is an Urdu translation of the Hadith. The Hadith is present in Sahih Ibn Hibbaan as well.

    The author here also correctly understands it and translates it as "shaadi" which means marriage.

    The Urdu speaking audience here will understand. I don't expect some people to ever understand. : )


    covver.jpg

    urdutranslation.jpg

    Leave a comment:


  • talibilm09
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    :salams

    But one among these two must read post # 51 here and also ask dua to Allah for avoiding knowledge that is not beneficial and to get iklaas which is the essence of Hidayah

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...r-Wisdom/page2

    &

    Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4273; al-Tirmidhi, 2433. classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi. (Islamqa)

    It was narrated that Abu’l-Darda’ (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Shall I not tell you something that is better than the status of (voluntary) fasting, prayer and charity?” They said: “Yes.” He said:“Reconciling in a case of discord, for the evil of discord is the shaver.” Al-Tirmidhi said: It was narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is the shaver, and I do not say that it shaves hair, but that it shaves (i.e., destroys) religious commitment.”
    Last edited by talibilm09; 18-10-17, 01:21 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tayoofa
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    [MENTION=3349]AbuNajm[/MENTION] [MENTION=40692]ZeeshanParvez[/MENTION]

    Salaam brothers

    Both of you are right lool and I don't think this matter is important

    قال رسول الله -صلى الله عليه وسلم-: (أنا زعيم ببيت في ربَض الجنة لمن ترك المراء وإن كان محقًّا،)
    Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "I guarantee a house in the surroundings of Jannah for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right)

    Sunan Abi Dawud 4800 Grade : Hasan

    Leave a comment:


  • AbuNajm
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    lol There is no point wasting time on self taught man who twists the language without having any evidence to back it up.
    If you had spent your time actually responding to my points, you might have uncovered your own twists and distortions of the language.

    Answer this question, which is basic logic:

    I have a hammer that I want to sell to you.

    It is known in our neighborhood that if anyone has any tools to sell, that you are a resourceful person and would either buy them yourself or know someone who needed to.

    So I approach you with the hammer with the intention of either selling it to you or to someone through you.

    If you tell me you don't need it, that simply means that you don't wish to buy it. However if you say you might need it, then that can mean that either:

    1) You wish to buy it for yourself;

    or

    2) You might have someone else who will buy it.

    What you're trying to argue, and quite unsuccessfully, is that the term "need" in this context can only refer to whether the person approached wishes to buy the hammer and that it is impossible for it to mean that he may have someone else interested in buy it.

    Proof that you're wrong is in the Hadith itself:

    The Ansar would inform the Prophet SAWS when they had a female relative who was available for marriage.

    The intention behind informing the Prophet SAWS was two-fold:

    1) Hoping for the slight chance that the Prophet SAWS might wish to marry the woman;

    or

    2) The more likely possibility that the Prophet SAWS would know someone righteous to marry the female relative to.

    The Prophet SAWS was known for matching individuals for marriage.

    Statistically, the Prophet SAWS was not known for marrying many women compared to the number of times he SAWS was most likely informed of the availability of a woman.

    The Hadith of Abu Barzah specifically mentions this detail about the Ansar informing the Prophet SAWS when a female relative was available for marriage directly before mentioning that the Prophet SAWS approached one such family and asked for the female relative's hand on behalf of a righteous Companions RA.

    The story of the Khitbah of the Prophet SAWS on behalf of Julaybeeb RA directly after the information regarding the custom of the Ansar in informing the Prophet SAWS about eligible women 100% demonstrates that the term "Haajah" in the context of marriage proposals INCLUDES matchmaking as well.

    So if the Prophet SAWS "had a need" for an eligible woman, that "need" also included matching her up with one of his SAWS Companions RA, NOT JUST FOR HIMSELF.

    If you can't understand that, then you are a hopeless individual who already does not deal with translations and who should probably never deal with them.

    It's basic logic.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbuNajm
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Now we know for sure who works with conjectures. Not one scholar understands the phrase as he does.

    I guess translators will be translators and not scholars
    .
    I don't understand what you're asking for.

    Do you need a scholar to say that the term "Haajah" can mean a wide range of things in the context of a Khitbah?

    Rather the onus is on the claimant not the one who questions the claim. This is a basic principle of debate and discussion that you fail to grasp.

    If you want to obligate everyone with accepting a certain translation, then you have to prove it. You have not brought a single quote which proves correct the restriction of the interpretation of "Haajah" as "marriage" in the context of Khitbah and the Hadith in question.

    I know you think that you've proven it with the quote from the Kuwaiti Encyclopedia of Fiqh, however you are wrong as it does not explicitly address the interpretation of the term "Haajah" but rather the circumstance in general, i.e. it is permissible for the Prophet SAWS to marry Ansariyyaat based on the Hadith in general.

    I've made it clear that I do not deny that the term "Haajah" in the context of Khitbah includes "marriage". My argument is that it is not restricted to it.

    It is clear to me that you have not reviewed all the possible meanings for the phrase "Haajah feehaa" in the context of marriage or Khitbah and for that reason you are blindly partisan to the translation of a single individual. That coupled with your jealousy of me, lack of knowledge, lack of manners and lack of scruples in dealing with fellow Muslims has led you to be insulting towards and to lie about me.

    I also find it interesting that [MENTION=143459]Tayoofa[/MENTION] made the mistake of translating أيّم as "widow" and restricting it to that meaning and you didn't jump all over her. That proves your insincerity in pretending to be the guardian of poor translations and translators.

    You're a sad individual [MENTION=40692]ZeeshanParvez[/MENTION].

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    You asked for evidence and you got it. The Kuwaiti Encyclopedia understood it to mean marriage. Jurists look for all possibilities when the evidence permits.

    No one, who knows the Arabic language, doubts that the meaning here means marriage as that is how the phrase is used. Even you admit it as a possibility.

    What you now need to do is bring us a a single - just one - commentary on the hadith by a reputable scholar who endorses your "theory." As it is, no one on the planet but you understands this hadith to mean what you understand it to mean. What is worse is that you think others like the authors of Kuwaiti Encyclopedia chose the understanding which goes against what you claim should be understood from the hadith.

    Bring us one scholar who understood it as you did. If you cannot, then you need to learn not to spread false understandings of the primary texts.

    The only one making conjectures here, something you accused me of, is you.
    Now we know for sure who works with conjectures. Not one scholar understands the phrase as he does.

    I guess translators will be translators and not scholars
    .

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
    There's no point in arguing about translations with people who don't work as translators.
    lol There is no point wasting time on self taught man who twists the language without having any evidence to back it up.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbuNajm
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    There's no point in arguing about translations with people who don't work as translators.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tayoofa
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
    It also means "widow", but that is not the only definition.

    From Ibn Qutaybah's Ghareeb al-Hadeeth:

    لأيم: الْمَرْأَة لَا زوج لَهَا بكرا كَانَت أَو ثَيِّبًا. وَكَذَلِكَ الرجل إِذا لم تكن لَهُ امْرَأَة فَهُوَ أيم

    "Al-Ayyim: the woman who has no husband, whether she is a virgin or not. And likewise the man who has no wife, thus he is "Ayyim"."

    From 2/46.

    It is strange that you would be so restrictive regarding the definition of the term "Ayyim", yet expansive in your reading of the term "Haajah".

    The debate is not whether the term "Haajah" is related to the Prophet SAWS, as that is clearly the case grammatically.

    The question is about "how" it relates to the Prophet SAWS.

    There is no Arab linguist who provides a general meaning of "marriage" for the term "Haajah". The term "Haajah" is an extremely generalized term whose meaning is always going to be subject to the specific context in which it is found.

    In the case of the Hadith of Abu Barzah, the Prophet SAWS approached an Ansari man who had informed the Prophet SAWS of his daughter's availability for marriage and asked for her hand on behalf of Julaybeeb RA. In this specific case, the "Haajah" of the Prophet SAWS was to match of the Ansari's daughter with Julaybeeb RA. The "Haajah" in this case is demonstrably NOT for the Prophet SAWS himself to marry the Ansari's daughter.

    This being the case, it is not possible to restrict the meaning of the term "Haajah" to "marriage", but rather to leave it in its widely-applied and understood meaning of a general "need".
    Yes you are right but the first thing that came to my mind after reading the hadith was the الايم means widow or even divorced as prophet SAW said : لا تنكح الأيم حتى تستأمر، ولا تنكح البكر حتى تستأذن )

    Second if you notice this part of hadith ( وَكَانَتِ الْأَنْصَارُ إِذَا كَانَ لِأَحَدِهِمْ أَيِّمٌ لَمْ يُزَوِّجْهَاحتَّى يَعْلَمَ هَلْ لِلنَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فِيهَا حَاجَةٌ أَمْ لَا )

    Which means any of Al Ansar would not arrange a marriage for her until they found out whether the Prophet wanted to marry her or not.”

    anyone who knows Arabic will understand from the context of hadith that haajah means marriage because Al Ansaar didnt need a permission from prophet SAW to arrange marriage for their daughters nor they need Him SAW to arrange marriages for them but they hoped if prophet SAW may marry one of their daughters thats why they kept them unmarried until they know if prophet SAW has a need of " marriage " or not !
    Last edited by Tayoofa; 17-10-17, 12:03 PM.

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  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
    I do not deny that the Ansar who brought news to the Prophet SAWS of an eligible woman also privately hoped that he SAWS might consider taking the eligible women as wives. However there is no proof, NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE, that this hope was the only motivation in doing so nor was it the only intention the Prophet SAWS had in allowing the custom.
    That is a ridiculous proposition and contrary to the text of the Hadith itself. Yet that is the crux of your argument and basis for your attacks against me, at least in this discussion.
    Only a person Hell-bent on an alternative agenda could be so blind to the facts.
    You asked for evidence and you got it. The Kuwaiti Encyclopedia understood it to mean marriage. Jurists look for all possibilities when the evidence permits.

    No one, who knows the Arabic language, doubts that the meaning here means marriage as that is how the phrase is used. Even you admit it as a possibility.

    What you now need to do is bring us a a single - just one - commentary on the hadith by a reputable scholar who endorses your "theory." As it is, no one on the planet but you understands this hadith to mean what you understand it to mean. What is worse is that you think others like the authors of Kuwaiti Encyclopedia chose the understanding which goes against what you claim should be understood from the hadith.

    Bring us one scholar who understood it as you did. If you cannot, then you need to learn not to spread false understandings of the primary texts.

    The only one making conjectures here, something you accused me of, is you.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    An entry from the Kuwaiti Encyclopedia of fiQh which puts the issue at hand to rest.

    وقال الإمام أبو يوسف - من الحنفية -: لا دلالة في الآية الكريمة على أن اللاتي لم يهاجرن كن محرمات على الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام؛ لأن تخصيص الشيء بالذكر لا ينفي ما عداه

    Imaam Abu Yusuf - from among the Hanafi school of thought - said: There is no evidence in the Noble Verse that the ones [i.e. women] who did not make Hijrah were impermissible for the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) because takhSiiS of something by making mention of it does not negate that which is other than it.


    ويجوز للرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يتزوج من نساء الأنصار، قد تزوج عليه الصلاة والسلام من غير المهاجرات صفية وجويرية

    It was permissible for the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) that he marry women from among the 'Ansaar. He married صفية and جويرية who were not from the muhaajiraat



    وفي مسند الإمام أحمد عن أبي برزة رضي الله عنه قال: كانت الأنصار إذا كان لأحدهم أيم - لم يزوجها حتى يعلم هل للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فيها حاجة أم لا

    And it is present in Musnad Ahmad that Imaam Ahmad reported from أبي برزة that when the 'Ansaar had an أيم they would not marry her until they knew if the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) had any "need" in her or not


    فلولا علمهم بأنه يحل له التزوج من نساء الأنصار لما كان هناك داع للتربص والانتظار

    Had they not known that it was permissible for him (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) to marry women from the Ansaar, there would have been no need here for waiting.


    There is your fiQh reference [MENTION=3349]AbuNajm[/MENTION].

    As I said. You were wrong. And you were arrogant.

    After the nonsense you said to me in the PM you sent me, the only one who needs to fear humiliation in public or a torment is not me but you. Praise to Allah you left my FB list.

    Pray to Allaah I don't pray against you for your comments in that PM.


    Volume 6 Page 266
    Have a nice day.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    And on a closing note, what is even more hilarious is that your misguided understanding of the text cannot even be termed a "need" in Arabic.

    Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
    The translation of the term "Haajah" in the Hadith of Abu Barzah should be left as "need" and not "marriage" since the Prophet SAWS clearly took the news of eligible Ansari women and matched them up with eligible males. The Prophet SAWS did not just decide whether the "wanted to marry them or not" and that was that.
    You can't tell the difference between a need and a wish.

    You have to be the first person on the planet to think man who has a Haaja in a woman in means he wants to marry her off to someone else. Oh dear!


    I do not deny that the Ansar who brought news to the Prophet SAWS of an eligible woman also privately hoped that he SAWS might consider taking the eligible women as wives. However there is no proof, NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE, that this hope was the only motivation in doing so nor was it the only intention the Prophet SAWS had in allowing the custom.
    The jurists understood it like it is. And not like you are capitalizing it as you know you are in a predicament.

    I guess you will never be a jurist. Or even understand Arabic at the rate you are going.

    Go on Abu Najm. Make good of your promise. Stop taking peek looks at my posts and put me on block!
    Last edited by ZeeshanParvez; 17-10-17, 09:00 AM.

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  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post

    There is no Arab linguist who provides a general meaning of "marriage" for the term "Haajah". The term "Haajah" is an extremely generalized term whose meaning is always going to be subject to the specific context in which it is found.

    In the case of the Hadith of Abu Barzah, the Prophet SAWS approached an Ansari man who had informed the Prophet SAWS of his daughter's availability for marriage and asked for her hand on behalf of Julaybeeb RA. In this specific case, the "Haajah" of the Prophet SAWS was to match of the Ansari's daughter with Julaybeeb RA. The "Haajah" in this case is demonstrably NOT for the Prophet SAWS himself to marry the Ansari's daughter.

    This being the case, it is not possible to restrict the meaning of the term "Haajah" to "marriage", but rather to leave it in its widely-applied and understood meaning of a general "need".
    You are blinded by your lack of knowledge of the language and arrogance.

    The Kuwaiti Encyclopedia clearly shows how that is understood. You, on the other hand, do not have a single reference to how you understand it.

    Anyone who reads this thread will know that you are ignorant.

    Nothing more needs to be said about you.

    And I think those on this forum who ignore most of what you write already acknowledge the fact that you lack substance.

    As for your claims of someone having a vendetta against you and being jealous of you, let me remind you.

    You are not a big deal. One only has a vendetta against someone or is jealous if he knows that the person is of value.

    For you to even think that someone would be jealous of you or have a vendetta shows how you are drowned in your arrogance.

    And we know that when you said "I have actually put the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) at a higher position" the true reasons why you need re-interpret the text with your misguided understanding were made apparent.

    Your "understanding" is wrong both in context of the hadith, how translators have translated it, and according to writers of the Kuwaiti Encyclopedia understood it.

    Enjoy your solitude.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbuNajm
    replied
    Re: I need a reference from Musnad Ahmad of this Hadeeth

    Originally posted by Tayoofa View Post
    Btw أيِّم is the widow
    It also means "widow", but that is not the only definition.

    From Ibn Qutaybah's Ghareeb al-Hadeeth:

    لأيم: الْمَرْأَة لَا زوج لَهَا بكرا كَانَت أَو ثَيِّبًا. وَكَذَلِكَ الرجل إِذا لم تكن لَهُ امْرَأَة فَهُوَ أيم

    "Al-Ayyim: the woman who has no husband, whether she is a virgin or not. And likewise the man who has no wife, thus he is "Ayyim"."

    From 2/46.

    It is strange that you would be so restrictive regarding the definition of the term "Ayyim", yet expansive in your reading of the term "Haajah".

    The debate is not whether the term "Haajah" is related to the Prophet SAWS, as that is clearly the case grammatically.

    The question is about "how" it relates to the Prophet SAWS.

    There is no Arab linguist who provides a general meaning of "marriage" for the term "Haajah". The term "Haajah" is an extremely generalized term whose meaning is always going to be subject to the specific context in which it is found.

    In the case of the Hadith of Abu Barzah, the Prophet SAWS approached an Ansari man who had informed the Prophet SAWS of his daughter's availability for marriage and asked for her hand on behalf of Julaybeeb RA. In this specific case, the "Haajah" of the Prophet SAWS was to match of the Ansari's daughter with Julaybeeb RA. The "Haajah" in this case is demonstrably NOT for the Prophet SAWS himself to marry the Ansari's daughter.

    This being the case, it is not possible to restrict the meaning of the term "Haajah" to "marriage", but rather to leave it in its widely-applied and understood meaning of a general "need".
    Last edited by AbuNajm; 17-10-17, 04:23 AM.

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