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    Literacy in Islam

    I believe my first attempted post was "blocked" for some reason. If Islam is true, then it should stand to any scrutiny without any obstacles.

    I have a question regarding the Shahada.

    If one of Allah's commandments was "Thou shalt not bear false witness" and the Shahada is essentially “I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

    How do you reconcile the fact that you are bearing yourself as a witness to a dead man? Do you actually consider yourselves as a "witness" to Muhammad? Does it not seem strange to you that Allah inscribed these commandments in stone, as if to suggest, they are solid as stone and you absolutely can not break them?

    Finally, if Allah were to ask for your proof from only your own personal life experience(not the Qur'an or your own authorities) that Muhammad is the final prophet, or let alone that he was a real person, what would you submit?

    Peace.

    #2
    Re: Literacy in Islam

    "How do you reconcile the fact that you are bearing yourself witness to a dead man?" You are not that different from me. Don't you bear witness to history and the people that came before you were born? I read the Quran and I cannot find a better logical explanation of reality than it.

    Do you actually consider yourselves as a "witness" to Muhammad? Yes.

    Does it not seem strange to you that Allah inscribed these commandments in stone, as if to suggest, they are solid as stone and you absolutely can not break them? No. I gave this explanation to a person before you:

    The reason why I am Muslim is because I cannot find a better logical explanation of reality than that of the Quran. I recommend you to the read the Quran to see if you will come to the same conclusion.The Quran is not based on blind faith but it asks you to think throughout the 114 chapters.

    Islam is based on one statement, that there is no God at all except Allah. In Arabic, there are two words for God, Allah refers only to the Creator of the heavens and the earth. I can never be an atheist because something cannot come from nothing, "Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?"(Surah 52:35).

    I cannot never be a polytheist because the Creator has to be different than everything else(Surah 112). Also if there was more than one God: "Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. [If there had been], then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have sought to overcome others. Exalted is Allah above what they describe [concerning Him]."(Surah 23:91).

    "Finally, if Allah were to ask for your proof from only your own personal life experience(not the Qur'an or your own authorities) that Muhammad is the final prophet, or let alone that he was a real person, what would you submit?" Nothing since I never met him. I judge Muhammad(peace be upon him) by the Quran. There is no doubt that the Quran goes back to Muhammad(peace be upon him), we have thousands of chain of narrations that bear witness to that fact. If you doubt Muhammad(peace be upon him) being a real person then you have to doubt everyone that came before you.
    Last edited by Calender121438; 15-09-17, 04:04 AM.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Literacy in Islam

      We are not bearing witness that we have seen him (sallaho alayhi wa sallam) we are bearing witness he was a messenger from Allah. You don't need to have seen him to state this when the evidence has been preserved mainly in the Quran but also in his sunnah

      I don't see your issue with this

      As for your other question my experience to believe in his messengership would be the good and benefit I have experienced in my own life from following his (sallaho alayhi wa sallam) teachings. Alhamdulilah Allah blessed me to turn my life around from the huge mess I'd made of it before becoming a muslim
      It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.
      "Whoever intends eternal happiness, then let him hold tight to the threshold of servitude.” ibn Taymiyyah.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Literacy in Islam

        Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
        "How do you reconcile the fact that you are bearing yourself witness to a dead man?" You are not that different from me. Don't you bear witness to history and the people that came before you were born? I read the Quran and I cannot find a better logical explanation of reality than it.

        Do you actually consider yourselves as a "witness" to Muhammad? Yes.

        Does it not seem strange to you that Allah inscribed these commandments in stone, as if to suggest, they are solid as stone and you absolutely can not break them? No. I gave this explanation to a person before you:

        The reason why I am Muslim is because I cannot find a better logical explanation of reality than that of the Quran. I recommend you to the read the Quran to see if you will come to the same conclusion.The Quran is not based on blind faith but it asks you to think throughout the 114 chapters.

        I have read it and I can agree that it provides a lens through which to perceive creation which (seemingly) explains many things. But I would hold that the way things seem are not the way things actually are; that is to say, if someone constructed the reality itself to "appear" the way it does (creating the problem) and simultaneously offering the solution to that problem (religion) then they hold all the power because they are making people see something that is entirely based on what the empire itself has created. This is how governments attain power. This is just the problem with religion that people do not see. To give an example the problem is not the Jews; they always fabricate religion. The problem is people who believe them. If the people didn't believe them, the Jews would not have any power in the world. This is why Islam shares a foundation with Judaism and Christianity; it's all part of the same machine creating perpetual conflict instigated by deception.

        Islam is based on one statement, that there is no God at all except Allah. In Arabic, there are two words for God, Allah refers only to the Creator of the heavens and the earth. I can never be an atheist because something cannot come from nothing, "Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?"(Surah 52:35).

        I understand that Islam recognizes one God; but in the same manner, a scientist can recognize (and prove) that the universe is actually only one energy without associating anything else to it. They need not then become indoctrinated by empire-based "religions". It is the very outcomes of empire-based religions which the athiest is looking at and seeing quite clearly that religious institutions are the cause for much of the suffering of the world. Indeed if you are a religious person (Christian/Jew/Muslim), you are being told the problem is elsewhere and you are part of the solution. The athiest sees religion as the problem because it has no stake in it (not invested) and sees it for what it really is. Do you see how that works?

        I cannot never be a polytheist because the Creator has to be different than everything else(Surah 112). Also if there was more than one God: "Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. [If there had been], then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have sought to overcome others. Exalted is Allah above what they describe [concerning Him]."(Surah 23:91).

        The teachings of Isa Ibn Maryam never contained polytheism; Christianity takes the concept Isa taught and placed the name "trinity" on it: that The Father(1) is in Christ(2) who is in you(3). It's one straight line marked by three separate junction points; but essentially it means Christ is in each person like a seed and he/she must turn within themselves in order to find it. That is "Christ". The Christians started worshipping Jesus/Isa (the man) as God in the flesh due to their authorities turning the teachings over onto its head; your religion teaches you that Iblis always makes things look like the opposite as they really are. This is an example, but Iblis is just a concept used to describe the deception of false institutions.


        "Finally, if Allah were to ask for your proof from only your own personal life experience(not the Qur'an or your own authorities) that Muhammad is the final prophet, or let alone that he was a real person, what would you submit?" Nothing since I never met him. I judge Muhammad(peace be upon him) by the Quran. There is no doubt that the Quran goes back to Muhammad(peace be upon him), we have thousands of chain of narrations that bear witness to that fact. If you doubt Muhammad(peace be upon him) being a real person then you have to doubt everyone that came before you.
        This is a matter of what you're willing to believe and on what grounds; it's local to each individual so I can't comment further.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Literacy in Islam

          Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
          We are not bearing witness that we have seen him (sallaho alayhi wa sallam) we are bearing witness he was a messenger from Allah. You don't need to have seen him to state this when the evidence has been preserved mainly in the Quran but also in his sunnah

          I don't see your issue with this

          To bear witness is not to simply say you "saw" them. To bear witness is to hold an assertion as true based on your direct witness account of it. For example to can bear witness that the teachings of Isa are true because it places Christ in each individual relative to their own experience. If course it must be true; I witness my own "Christ" when I read and comprehend his teachings (which requires literacy). This is why Muhammad (by necessity) must have been illiterate; he is the example to serve to humanity what happens if you are illiterate and can't grasp it for yourself. There are no "good" or "bad" prophets in the narrative, just "examples". This is why your religious institutions jump to create a religion whenever a messenger comes; but they only contort the truth, not provide it.

          As for your other question my experience to believe in his messengership would be the good and benefit I have experienced in my own life from following his (sallaho alayhi wa sallam) teachings. Alhamdulilah Allah blessed me to turn my life around from the huge mess I'd made of it before becoming a muslim
          I can't comment on what is your own life experience; I can say in my own life experience I was born free from any oppression/forced religion. Now I did go my own way in my childhood and did stupid things; it it is that very freedom which allowed me to discover more about myself and my relationship to creation itself.

          Thank you for your answers.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Literacy in Islam

            Originally posted by justoneman View Post
            I can say in my own life experience I was born free from any oppression/forced religion.
            This sounds like a misguided belief. Religion is the law, and the law is religion. You were not born free from any law. They also enforced the law in your life experience. There is always a law. If you do not seek protection under the law of the Almighty, it will be the law of Satan that will govern your life, even from birth.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Literacy in Islam

              Originally posted by pronorah View Post
              This sounds like a misguided belief. Religion is the law, and the law is religion. You were not born free from any law. They also enforced the law in your life experience. There is always a law. If you do not seek protection under the law of the Almighty, it will be the law of Satan that will govern your life, even from birth.
              For the sake of argument I am going to agree with this, but I will try to clarify my meaning of oppression/forced religion.

              When I say oppression/forced religion I simply mean a belief system which overtly teaches God. I was born into secularism; religion is offered in schools but not mandatory. The Bible was covered by employing teaching about the narratives within it; for example we learn the story of Moses pbuh and how it relates to our very lives within. They teach the narrative as symbolic narratives that hold personal meaning. They don't force you by trying to tell you exactly what God is outside of your personal relationship with "the Father" as Isa pbuh tried to describe to everyone. You must be one with "the Father" or creation itself in order to know life.

              Isa Ibn Maryam pbuh describes your boddy as a lamp; imagine a pawn chess piece on a chessboard - it can only see 9 squares of the 64 because it is only a pawn. He goes on to say you are the light of the world; your own "piece" is what grants your perception. That's why he describes "Christ" as within you. The Christians turned Isa/Jesus pbuh into God in the flesh and made idolatry of him.

              Isa Ibn Maryam pbuh taught how to become one with "the Father"; if your eye be single (you perceive a single Grandmaster) your body shall be filled with light (greater perception). As any yogi has been saying for thousands of years; in order to experience the divine you must enhance your perception.

              So yes there is a "law". That law is to be one with "the Father". And with respect to your religion, that law is above ALL. Your religious institutions; first Christianity, then Islam, are literally systematically suppressing these proper teachings and making you focus on other things, such as Muhammad pbuh the illiterate, the best example for all of mankind on how to die "fighting" for peace because you couldn't make sense of the narrative based on what others were telling you (you can't yourself read, this is why he was chosen); your narratives/fables are all derived by heretics who take away the keys for they enter not within themselves. While Muhammad pbuh was made victorious with terror, Isa Ibn Maryyam pbuh is always made victorious with truth, because he was one with "the Father". Here is another teaching:

              When Isa Ibn Maryam was approached by many followers he was often asked (more than once) how to get to the kingdom of heaven. He said when you learn to strip yourself naked before "the Father" and stand with no shame and live in abundance, it is then and only then.

              Of course Isa pbuh is referring to the first story; Genesis (Torah). Adam and Eve (pbut) were naked in the garden and they knew not shame. They were commanded not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The serpent enters. Here your authoritarian teachers tell you the serpent was "evil" Satan Ibliss. You have already disobeyed God/Allah before even eating from the Tree itself! Allah is neutral; both good and evil combined in balance. The serpent is neutral; he merely tells you how to become "like" God/Allah; not God itself, not a God, not your own God, but "like" God which is to know good and evil, which is what makes God ... God! Don't you see? Only Allah knows good and evil because that's what makes him Allah. You know not good and evil compared to Allah at all times; this is eternal. You will never know Allah. But if you eat from the tree, and derive proper lesson/instruction, your life will blossom (tree of life) and become "like" Allah. If you eat from the tree, and don't derive lesson/instruction, you will die just as Allah warned you about! Do not all of the prophets (pbut) speak for Allah?

              It is details like these your authorities over-ride with their own made-up nonsense; out of respect to your religion you follow I won't go into them. I find when people are completely attached/identified with something, they take things personally which I don't intend; it is secularism which gives the atmosphere to discuss these things openly because we value every single person (man and women) equal; and Isa (pbuh) says judge not lest ye be judged until I return to perform judgment myself. That's when you realize Christ is you; he is not a man to physically return, it is your own return to "the Father" relative to your own life. That is the "second coming" which people are waiting for; red pill or blue pill, how well have your authorities hidden it from you that Christ is in you? The Romans too Isa and idolatried him. The Arabs (after Muhammad pbuh) started killing each other and erected Muhammad and idolatried him. Lies started forming all over the place and sold to make money. Your Hadith are collections of stories people invented to make money on the street. It was an entire business in those days.Your authorities are not sincere with Muhammad; Muhammad never told a lie, but they themselves lie to you constantly.

              Isa (pbuh) was the last direct witness of Allah being one with the Father. Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of any "interaction" witness of Allah (Muhammad through Gabriel), lest each man become literate and understand Christ, they will not know themselves; how his teachings taught you to enter within yourself and be granted vision to witness the hypocrisy of your leaders for yourself; thus taking their power away from them, just as they take the keys away from you. It is all within you; to me I have my own which is no example unto you. Yours is specific to you. If life is a chess game (starting in equal material/neutral) and it's only you (student) and the very source of creation opposite you; such was the relationship of Isa pbuh to Allah; one with the Father, which is what he taught; you must enter within yourself. This is why "animal sacrifice" is first necessary; to sacrifice your own internal animal nature such as to imitate other things you see and identify with (idolatry). They who make these things physical sacrifices killing real animals are the liars and hypocrites; your religion has such traditions.

              Now when I say oppressed/forced religion, I'm talking about hypocritical Christianity erecting Isa as idolatry and telling people he physically healed the blind. It was his teachings that made people realize they find all the answers within themselves; they need not a teacher anymore but Allah. Allah is sufficient unto all matters; but do you eat from the tree without deriving lesson because you allow authorities to make you believe you know good and evil? Who do they tell you to hate? Jews? Jews provide an example of deception; it is up to Christ to judge for hypocrisy, which is in you. This whole geopolitical nonsense going on with Islam in the media is a reflection of the same problem distorting religion; hypocrisy creates deception, both in the physical and internally within you. The more of a hypocrite you are, the more the deceivers gain power. This is to fall to the hands of what you refer to as "Ibliss". He is the soul-eater for those who deny Christ; for Allah can not teach you if you are not paying attention to the cosmic game as a teacher and student relationship. Evolution is the natural progression of how "one with the Father" we become. Where you end up is a matter whether or not you enter within your self. Each to his own unique Christ.

              Please take time to reflect. If you reject this premise of Christ, then to me mine and to you yours. Satan/Ibliss has no hold on a true Christ-seeker. These words I speak have nothing to do with Christianity; it is a false institution and I am not a Christian. I am simply a piece of life, in the cosmos, witnessing my own alpha and omega; beginning and end, the same you are experiencing within you, and just as Isa said, that Father(1) is in Christ(2) is in you(3) as One.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Literacy in Islam

                Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                They don't force you by trying to tell you exactly what God is outside of your personal relationship with "the Father" as Isa pbuh tried to describe to everyone. You must be one with "the Father" or creation itself in order to know life.
                Jesus spoke about his father, who was (already) in heaven. If you count Jesus and his father, they are not two, because one is already in heaven. The count is obviously just one. By the way, Jesus never meant God with "the Father". According to the Gospel of Thomas (Nag Hammadi):

                44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

                You cannot blaspheme against God. So, in the terminology of Jesus, it is the holy spirit who is God.

                Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                So yes there is a "law". That law is to be one with "the Father".
                No, because the count of you and your father can only be one, when your father is dead already.

                Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                Isa Ibn Maryyam pbuh is always made victorious with truth, because he was one with "the Father".
                No, Jesus was a messenger of our beloved master, the illustrious Allah, not because the count of him and his deceased father were one, but because he was given the permission to perform miracles.

                Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                The Arabs (after Muhammad pbuh) started killing each other and erected Muhammad and idolatried him.
                No, the prophet, may he rest in peace, was a man. He has never been worshiped as a deity. He was a man with a special mission. He was a messenger of our beloved Master, Lord of both Worlds, the illustrious Allah. There is no worshiping the prophet in Islam. Only our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, is worthy of worship.

                Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                Your Hadith are collections of stories people invented to make money on the street.
                No, the hadiths are testimonies by witnesses who narrate about what they saw when the messenger, may he rest in peace, was still alive.

                Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                Isa (pbuh) was the last direct witness of Allah being one with the Father.
                No, the count of Jesus and his deceased father was indeed one, because his deceased father was already with our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah.

                Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                Evolution is the natural progression of how "one with the Father" we become.
                No, the count of ourselves with our father only becomes one, when either our father dies, or we die. Otherwise, the count of ourselves with our father will be two.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Literacy in Islam

                  Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                  This is a matter of what you're willing to believe and on what grounds; it's local to each individual so I can't comment further.
                  1) "I have read it and I can agree that it provides a lens through which to perceive creation which (seemingly) explains many things. But I would hold that the way things seem are not the way things actually are"

                  We should not base life on assumptions, but we should take things as they are. This is the delusion of atheism, they want to believe something came from nothing.

                  "If someone constructed the reality itself to "appear" the way it does (creating the problem) and simultaneously offering the solution to that problem (religion)"

                  It depends on whom that someone is. If that someone is the Creator of the heavens and earth then we should listen. One of the things that I love about Islam is its concept of God. It does not tell you to worship a man or idols and it tells that the Creator resembles no one:

                  A) "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." Surah 42:11

                  Islam is the natural state(fitrah) of human beings:

                  B) And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Surah 7:172

                  C) So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (Surah 30:30)

                  This explains why even hardcore atheists like Richard Dawkins call upon God when they are in distress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv2U2Xp2Nu8

                  D) But when there came to them Our visible signs, they said, "This is obvious magic." And they rejected them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof, out of injustice and haughtiness. So see how was the end of the corrupters. (Surah 27:13-14).

                  E) We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness? (Surah 41:53).

                  2) This is a challenge to you, give me something that is better than the Quran:

                  A) Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them(Quran and the original Torah) that I may follow it, if you should be truthful." But if they do not respond to you - then know that they only follow their [own] desires. And who is more astray than one who follows his desire without guidance from Allah ? Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (Surah 28:49-50).

                  3) Science explains the how of things, not why. Muslims like Ibn al-Haytham contributed a lot to it. Islam is not against science, it encourages it. For example:

                  A) Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created? And at the sky - how it is raised? And at the mountains - how they are erected? And at the earth - how it is spread out? (Surah 88: 17-20).

                  4) "It is the very outcomes of empire-based religions which the atheist is looking at and seeing quite clearly that religious institutions are the cause for much of the suffering of the world."

                  This is not true. An atheist has no problem with secularism yet take at look at the 20th century colonialism, wars, and the modern day war on terrorism, which countries bomb and invade other countries?
                  Last edited by Calender121438; 16-09-17, 04:17 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Literacy in Islam

                    Originally posted by pronorah View Post
                    Jesus spoke about his father, who was (already) in heaven. If you count Jesus and his father, they are not two, because one is already in heaven. The count is obviously just one. By the way, Jesus never meant God with "the Father". According to the Gospel of Thomas (Nag Hammadi):

                    44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

                    You cannot blaspheme against God. So, in the terminology of Jesus, it is the holy spirit who is God.

                    To deny Christ as within you is to deny the Father, which is to deny your own self. Did you not read Jesus say lest any man deny himself and take his cross daily and follow me?

                    No, because the count of you and your father can only be one, when your father is dead already.

                    I'm not sure what use of the word "father" you are using here. Jesus spoke Aramaic which had very few words; he chose "father" for what it implies; one who teaches, nurtures, disciplines, guides etc. This is creation. This is why Jesus said your eye must be single; that is to perceive all of creation as happening within yourself. The father is not "dead".

                    No, Jesus was a messenger of our beloved master, the illustrious Allah, not because the count of him and his deceased father were one, but because he was given the permission to perform miracles.

                    Jesus did not perform real miracles; these are corruptions from Romans.

                    No, the prophet, may he rest in peace, was a man. He has never been worshiped as a deity. He was a man with a special mission. He was a messenger of our beloved Master, Lord of both Worlds, the illustrious Allah. There is no worshiping the prophet in Islam. Only our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, is worthy of worship.

                    Here is where literacy comes in; if you do not understand how idolatry works in the mind (as per Moses) and don't understand how your treatment of Muhammad is idolatry, you have not understood lesson which came before. Your prostrations toward the kaaba is based on pagan tradition, your treatment of the Qur'an as perfect word of God is idolatry, treating Muhammad as the best example for all of mankind is idolatry etc. This is why the animal sacrifice before Christ is necessary; imitation is an animal quality, and idolatry operates on this animal nature, thus the need for animal sacrifice. These lessons regarding idolatry came before Muhammad and as such only a literate person can understand them. This is why God/Allah chose an illiterate man; as an example on to humanity what happens when you try to deduce the narrative through other people and not yourself. He knew it not Christ is within you because he couldn't read.

                    No, the hadiths are testimonies by witnesses who narrate about what they saw when the messenger, may he rest in peace, was still alive.

                    You are succumb to your authorities and as such they have hijacked your intellect.

                    No, the count of Jesus and his deceased father was indeed one, because his deceased father was already with our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah.

                    No, the count of ourselves with our father only becomes one, when either our father dies, or we die. Otherwise, the count of ourselves with our father will be two.

                    This sounds to me like you are confused.
                    This is the example for humanity to understand why an illiterate man can not comprehend the narrative. That's the example Muhammad provided. Your authorities started attributing things such as best example, sexual strength of many men, many wives (status) etc. It's all deception; you would perceive it if your eye was single but you perceive it not.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Literacy in Islam

                      Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                      1) "I have read it and I can agree that it provides a lens through which to perceive creation which (seemingly) explains many things. But I would hold that the way things seem are not the way things actually are"

                      We should not base life on assumptions, but we should take things as they are. This is the delusion of atheism, they want to believe something came from nothing.

                      "If someone constructed the reality itself to "appear" the way it does (creating the problem) and simultaneously offering the solution to that problem (religion)"

                      It depends on whom that someone is. If that someone is the Creator of the heavens and earth then we should listen. One of the things that I love about Islam is its concept of God. It does not tell you to worship a man or idols and it tells that the Creator resembles no one:

                      A) "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." Surah 42:11

                      Islam is the natural state(fitrah) of human beings:

                      B) And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Surah 7:172

                      C) So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (Surah 30:30)

                      This explains why even hardcore atheists like Richard Dawkins call upon God when they are in distress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv2U2Xp2Nu8

                      D) But when there came to them Our visible signs, they said, "This is obvious magic." And they rejected them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof, out of injustice and haughtiness. So see how was the end of the corrupters. (Surah 27:13-14).

                      E) We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness? (Surah 41:53).

                      2) This is a challenge to you, give me something that is better than the Quran:

                      A) Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them(Quran and the original Torah) that I may follow it, if you should be truthful." But if they do not respond to you - then know that they only follow their [own] desires. And who is more astray than one who follows his desire without guidance from Allah ? Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (Surah 28:49-50).

                      3) Science explains the how of things, not why. Muslims like Ibn al-Haytham contributed a lot to it. Islam is not against science, it encourages it. For example:

                      A) Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created? And at the sky - how it is raised? And at the mountains - how they are erected? And at the earth - how it is spread out? (Surah 88: 17-20).

                      4) "It is the very outcomes of empire-based religions which the atheist is looking at and seeing quite clearly that religious institutions are the cause for much of the suffering of the world."

                      This is not true. An atheist has no problem with secularism yet take at look at the 20th century colonialism, wars, and the modern day war on terrorism, which countries bomb and invade other countries?
                      See this is all stemming from a misunderstanding of God's first commandment to man: do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The secular scientists are obeying the command of God by "eating from any tree" they desire. They live their lives in pursuit of what they wish to contribute to humanity (Abel; first of flock; abundance). Here is a quote from Einstein:

                      Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind.

                      This is a perfectly balanced equation: if you pursue your religious beliefs without measuring them against science, you are blind. If you pursue science without asking why, this is a lame existence. If you are going to state that the Qur'an does not reject science, then you must also understand that many stories in the Qur'an are (provably) lifted from pre-existing Syro-Aramaic liturgical texts that were in circulation. This is proven in the Qur'an itself (if you have the eyes to see) because many stories are retold in different ways with different details. Only the literate man will see this. There are even stories which have been translated improperly; all of this is proven if you undergo honest intellectual pursuit. It is as such the Qur'an is not any product of divine original; this is a lesson on what happens when you treat it as such, which is a natural consequence of idolatry. The moment you are willing to label something (such as secularism) inherently evil, you are breaking God's first commandment. Even people who say the serpent is Ibliss (evil) they too are breaking the same initial commandment; indeed, God and the serpent are both neutral.

                      This is why Islam is stagnated; there is not equal effort to juxtapose science with religion in Islam. Indeed, if anyone publishes the obvious errors of the Qur'an, they are liable to be killed because Islam is no different from fascism. By labeling other humans beings as "infidels" that are less than human, simply because they do not follow Islam due to such reasons as above, and treating your book as the word of God which states to kill these infidels under certain circumstances, this is fascism and has caused perpetual hatred and divisiveness not only within Islam itself for 1400 years, but to the rest of the world. You have the Qur'an, and 1400 years of human history that followed for your "test". Life is a question and answers game; are you the one who thinks they have the answers, or the one constantly asking questions? That's why any yogi (Jesus taught yoga by the way if you didn't comprehend the teachings) never, ever identifies with what he/she knows, or thinks they know. They only identify with what they do not know, because what you do not know is where all possibilities are present. This is how evolution works. Islam closes the door by saying the Qur'an is the final word. It is the final word for those who are illiterate and can not progress further, but the example of Muhammad is your proof of how it ends; perpetual conflict.

                      Believing you have a special mission to eradicate "unbelievers" is a sick ideology and no different than Nazi-ism; but indeed, this is how it was all designed: to collapse people into "beds" and make them perform bad deeds thinking they are sanctioned by "God" whereby those very beliefs that you are supported by "God" only arise from fundamental disregard for that which came before. The God of Abraham narrative is an illustration of how one becomes progressively hypocritical, ending with Muhammad who could not read for himself and tried to make sense only by what other people told him. That is why the Muslim is locked into an eternal struggle; even for Muhammad, the fighting never ended and he suffered until the very end. He left not ownership of the caliphate because the example is meant to show what would happen under a single fascist caliphate; rivaling families will keep killing each other for power. This is your Sunni-Shia split which, if Islam were a true religion of peace, would have never happened. This is an example on to Muslims what awaits them if they do not become literate and understand the narrative in its entirety; perpetual bloodshed. Your authorities have prepared for you an "enemy" to blame the problems of the world on. This is the tactic the Jews have been employing for thousands of years, and you are succumb to them.

                      It is as such I do not share your views above but do wish you well in searching for the truth. If you believe Isa is going to physically return to the world and establish Islam for the whole of humanity, you are deceived. The return of Christ either happens within you, or it does not. Why do you think "infidel" nations have made such movies such as the Matrix? The whole of creation is simply code and a hologram; it's not real. Either you enter within yourself and engage with Christ on an internal level, or you continue to live on this planet being deceived by your authorities. That's the red pill blue pill choice every man faces; to deny Christ or enter in the narrow gate. It is only a literate person which has the ability to read the entire narrative, start to finish, reflect, and realize Christ is within. This is what you would refer to as "the great deception"; to not understand/realize that Christ is within.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Literacy in Islam

                        Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                        This is the example for humanity to understand why an illiterate man can not comprehend the narrative. That's the example Muhammad provided. Your authorities started attributing things such as best example, sexual strength of many men, many wives (status) etc. It's all deception; you would perceive it if your eye was single but you perceive it not.
                        How many are "John and Carl and Alex"? They are three.
                        How many are "John and Carl"? They are two.
                        How many are "John"? They are one.
                        If Alex is dead, how many are "John and Carl and Alex"? They are two.
                        If Jesus' father is dead, how many are "Jesus and the father"? They are one.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Literacy in Islam

                          Originally posted by pronorah View Post
                          How many are "John and Carl and Alex"? They are three.
                          How many are "John and Carl"? They are two.
                          How many are "John"? They are one.
                          If Alex is dead, how many are "John and Carl and Alex"? They are two.
                          If Jesus' father is dead, how many are "Jesus and the father"? They are one.
                          I'm sorry but you seem to be missing the entire concept here. Allow me to try to explain the concept of trinity. As you read this, please understand that Romans/Christians completely corrupted the idea of the trinity; they make it appear as something it is not. Indeed Muhammad made attempt to clarify this, but he was illiterate and could not read it directly for himself.

                          Isa declares himself, alone, as just one man. Thus he is placing himself at the exact same level as the common man. There is but one difference; Isa is the embodiment of the concept of "Christ" which is an internal seed planted in and among every man. However, Isa goes on to say that he and the Father are "one" and that nobody comes to the father except through him.

                          Now please understand; Christ is internal. It's not a man. Isa is portraying himself as "the Christ" which is also within you. Please see: (1)The Father is in (2)Christ is in (3)you. Currently you do not have Christ. But to enter within yourself, you engage in your own "Christ" which is the only way to the "Father". Thus it is all one process; you enter within yourself to become one with the Father in "Christ". It is all one process.

                          This is why the "second coming" of Christ is a local event; it happens within you. If you deny Christ (do not enter within yourself), you deny the Father because you did not understand/apply the concept properly. This is why God had to choose an illiterate man as the seal of all prophets; he is the living example of one who does not understand the concept of Christ; that's why he died in endless struggle.

                          That's why I keep stating your authorities are keeping away the key from you by making idolatry from Muhammad; do you see the irony?

                          Look; God promises you a life free from oppression if you follow the ten commandments. That's the covenant. He will give you a life free from all oppression IF and only IF you "understand" and "follow" the laws which were carved in stone by God himself. One of them was to never bear yourself witness to anything you do not directly perceive; the shahada violates this commandment which is what opens the door for such things as idolatry, killing, mistreating others etc. which all causes oppression. The ten commandments are meant to protect you from all forms of oppression, but if you break them without realizing it (eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil without deriving your lesson), you will die. However, if you eat from the tree and derive lesson, you become "like" God; to know good and evil. You will thus perceive all religion as forms of oppression and avoid them, because it is your own mistakes which gives rise to that very oppression (you perceive the problem as Jews/unbelievers/the West etc.) making you your own free person under the direct protection of Allah. If you understand the narrative (literacy), apply the rules, you will not be touched by anyone or anything. This is how God/Allah teaches. This is how evolution works (you evolved from more primitive hominid). God did not create you as a human; you evolved from animal which is why inner animal sacrifice is necessary. If you go to a zoo and make a face at a monkey, it makes a face back at you by imitating. Thus imitation is an animal trait. Idolatry exploits this inner animal trait; they tell you an example (Jesus or Muhammad) and tell you to imitate them. This is idolatry. This is part of the lesson you have to learn. If you deny this lesson, you will continue to face oppression because these lessons are necessary in order to evolve further.

                          So the concept of "one with the Father" means you entered into your own Christ; that's it. There is no three; there is only one. There is no "dead" father. I don't even understand how you could say Jesus' father is dead. His father and your father are the same father; creation itself. If the father were "dead" you wouldn't be here perceiving creation. That's what Jesus meant by "father".

                          I hope this clarifies.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Literacy in Islam

                            Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                            I believe my first attempted post was "blocked" for some reason. If Islam is true, then it should stand to any scrutiny without any obstacles.

                            I have a question regarding the Shahada.

                            If one of Allah's commandments was "Thou shalt not bear false witness" and the Shahada is essentially “I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

                            How do you reconcile the fact that you are bearing yourself as a witness to a dead man? Do you actually consider yourselves as a "witness" to Muhammad? Does it not seem strange to you that Allah inscribed these commandments in stone, as if to suggest, they are solid as stone and you absolutely can not break them?

                            Finally, if Allah were to ask for your proof from only your own personal life experience(not the Qur'an or your own authorities) that Muhammad is the final prophet, or let alone that he was a real person, what would you submit?

                            Peace.
                            Peace be upon those who receive guidance,

                            This shows you have zero understanding of the Shahada,

                            The Shahada states we believe in only one who is worthy of worship (Allah عز و جل) and Rasul صلى الله عليه و سلم is his messenger

                            It doesn't mean we are physically standing there watching either of them.

                            Personal life experiences are subjective, this what Christians play on.

                            The proof for Islam are definitive, from the Qur'an and Sunnah of the messenger صلى الله عليه و سلم

                            Never heard of a sensible argument from a Christian,

                            Now they are asking us to use "personal experiences" to justify the existence of people

                            Facepalm
                            http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                            "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                            – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Literacy in Islam

                              Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                              However, Isa goes on to say that he and the Father are "one" ...
                              Which is correct, because his father was dead. So, they are not two, but one.
                              Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                              Now please understand; Christ is internal. It's not a man.
                              No, that is contradictory. He is called the "son of man" or the "son of a man", which is always again a man. The son of a cat is also again a cat.
                              Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                              you enter within yourself to become one with the Father in "Christ". It is all one process.
                              No, that procedure is too complicated. I cannot imagine that anybody could find it attractive.
                              Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                              That's why I keep stating your authorities are keeping away the key from you by making idolatry from Muhammad; do you see the irony?
                              The authorities in Islam are a set of books only: The Quran and its practical application in the Sunnah. There is no Papacy in Islam. The clergy only help the believers with provably deriving rulings from these books. Furthermore, there is no idolatry or deification of the prophet in Islam. You may be confusing things with other religions.
                              Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                              There is no "dead" father. I don't even understand how you could say Jesus' father is dead.
                              Jesus prays for his father who is already in heaven. So, that means that his father is dead, no? Furthermore, how can the count of Jesus and his father be one, if both of them were still alive? In that case, the count would be two.

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