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    #16
    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Peace be upon those who receive guidance,

    This shows you have zero understanding of the Shahada,

    The Shahada states we believe in only one who is worthy of worship (Allah عز و جل) and Rasul صلى الله عليه و سلم is his messenger

    It doesn't mean we are physically standing there watching either of them.

    The Shahada is not a belief statement, it is a witness statement. There is a difference. Bearing yourself as witness to something doesn't require you "physically" witness it at all, it simply requires you call yourself a witness to something. The moment you call yourself a witness to something that is not in your direct experience, you are opening yourself to a whole host of potential problems, which is why the commandment was issues in stone. Again, this is a comprehension/literacy problem.


    Personal life experiences are subjective, this what Christians play on.

    The proof for Islam are definitive, from the Qur'an and Sunnah of the messenger صلى الله عليه و سلم

    So, if you read the very first story of all of scripture, it tells you that your life experience is subjective and relative to you, if you are literate and understand it. If you proclaim yourself as witness and use the Qur'an / life story of the prophet as "proof", this is still subjective.

    Never heard of a sensible argument from a Christian,

    Now they are asking us to use "personal experiences" to justify the existence of people

    I am not a Christian; but "personal experience" is all you have in this world. That's why Isa taught you must be one with the father in order to perceive things just the way they are, and not how you want them to be.


    Facepalm
    Now consider Genesis;

    God makes man from the clay, and tells man you can eat from any tree you so desire. He says do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; you will surely die. Now the serpent enters and tells man you will not die, you will become "like" God, to know good and evil.

    Now your authorities try to convince you that the serpent is Satan / Ibliss and is evil. Do you see the problem here? God just forbade eating from the tree of good and evil, and you turn around and say the serpent is evil. This is the lesson which is supposed to teach you that whatever you call "good" and "evil" is your own internal "subjective experience". That's the duality at play in this mortal world; but there is a dilemma.

    How to know exactly "what" this tree is, if God doesn't explain it? It's like a mother telling a child "don't touch fire" and the child knows not why. So, in order for the child to learn why not, he/she touches fire. It is in this sense that the fall of man is inevitable; we are each fallen from birth. But to eat from this tree and understand why not to eat from it (don't touch fire because it burns) is the same thing as becoming "like" God; to know good and evil.

    That is the very first story at the base of all of the scriptures of the God of Abraham. This is why literacy is required; this is why God had to choose an illiterate man as the seal of the prophets; he could not read for himself and only went by what others told him. All of the stories in circulation orally at the time appear more than once in the Qur'an as proof that these stories all contained differences and contradictions. Muhammad even challenged people to find contradictions in it; indeed there are several. Once you see them you understand the role Muhammad had to play in the cosmic show. Your Qur'an contains stories which were already printed in pre-existing Syro-Aramaic liturgical texts that were scattered among different sects. The Qur'an and Muhammad, while they may indeed have been sent by "God" were sent for a reason, the vast majority of people don't recognize it because their authorities are telling them what is "good" and what is "evil" and, as I have been saying, they understand not that "Christ" is within them.

    That's why your experience necessarily must be subjective; it needs to be your own. Now if you want to believe the Qur'an is perfect, and Muhammad was real, God provided for you an example of what happens already. Upon the death of Muhammad, ownership of the caliphate was never discussed. This was done on purpose to allow humanity to see what happens; different rivaling families kill each other non-stop. You say Islam is a religion of peace, but it has not known peace since the death of Muhammad; it points the fingers at everyone and everything else as the problem (Jews, infidels, West) and feeds off of hatred and divisiveness. 1400 years of human history has been provided to humanity after the death of the final prophet; and those who continue to follow the "example" of Muhammad only fall into the same fate as he did; perpetual conflict. It is meant to be a lesson that you must be literate to make sense of things.

    This is all part of the "test" Muslims like to run around warning people about; but they perceive it not that it is a literacy test, much like you take in school in order to take more advanced courses. If you are illiterate and can't make sense of the story (Muhammad) you will forever be in perpetual conflict with the rest of the world, and Isa Ibn Maryam provided the only solution. As such there are two people on this planet; those who understand Isa (many are called, few are chosen) and those who do not (illiterate). Each individual (locally) owns that choice.

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Literacy in Islam

      Originally posted by pronorah View Post
      Which is correct, because his father was dead. So, they are not two, but one.

      No, that is contradictory. He is called the "son of man" or the "son of a man", which is always again a man. The son of a cat is also again a cat.

      No, that procedure is too complicated. I cannot imagine that anybody could find it attractive.

      The authorities in Islam are a set of books only: The Quran and its practical application in the Sunnah. There is no Papacy in Islam. The clergy only help the believers with provably deriving rulings from these books. Furthermore, there is no idolatry or deification of the prophet in Islam. You may be confusing things with other religions.

      Jesus prays for his father who is already in heaven. So, that means that his father is dead, no? Furthermore, how can the count of Jesus and his father be one, if both of them were still alive? In that case, the count would be two.
      I am going to make one last attempt to explain what Jesus meant by "the Father".

      The father is not a man. It is not a human. It is not a biological being. It is none of these things you keep trying to play numbers games with.

      Jesus spoke Aramaic; you choose words based on what they imply and the qualities they embody. For example "father" implies: one who teaches, nurtures, supports, raises, instructs, disciplines, guides, provides etc. etc. and the list goes on. Now let me ask you, which one of these can not be applied to Allah? How many names does Allah have? Jesus' use of the word "father" is simply in reference to "the instruction as provided directly from Allah".

      How does one know this? Jesus provides teachings: If your eye be single (you perceive everything as Allah) your body will be filled with light (perception). The single eye is not evil; it is your inner understanding that your whole experience being generated within you is in accordance to Allah. To "be one with" the father (Allah) is to simply acknowledge that you are paying absolute attention to creation, or "the Father".

      Imagine this similitude; there is a chessboard set equal in material. Allah is the cosmic Grandmaster seated on one side, you on the other. Now if you live your life unconsciously and do not pay direct attention to every single lesson the Grandmaster is providing for you, that's the same as eating from the tree but never learning your lesson (death). If you pay respect to the Grandmaster that he is there, it is only you and the Grandmaster (all else is irrelevant), and you pay absolute attention, that is to be "one with the Father".

      The father is not a person; Jesus' use of the word "father" is symbolic for Allah / creation itself. For you to say Jesus' father is "in heaven" and therefore dead is just a complete misunderstanding of the entire concept. Jesus says thus; he alone is just one man, but with the father he becomes the Christ. Um, hello? Single eye, treat all as Allah, Christ is within you. That's why there are only two people on this planet; those who understand the concept of Christ, and those who do not. If you are among them that believe Isa/Jesus is physically coming back to save you, you are deceived. Christ can only happen from within.

      There is no dead father. The father is all of creation as you perceive it. If you deny Christ (which is in yourself) you deny the father, which is actually what you and other posters in this thread are doing. I am not a Christian because once you understand Christ, you need not any religion. Why settle for other people filling your head with divisiveness nonsense when you have Allah itself teaching you? That's why Christ is the only, only, only way. Anything else is perpetual conflict, as 1400 years have tried to demonstrate to you. These religious institutions are build upon hypocrisy after hypocrisy after hypocrisy until they have you breaking almost every single commandment which was given in stone. They feed from your life energies as such because they who allowed them to. It's like someone stealing your watch and selling it back to you. Such is religion, including the current "Islam".

      The true Islam is one simple state of being: one with "the Father". Muhammad told you this; everyone is born a Muslim. Indeed they are. But what your authorities are telling you is "Muslim" and what Isa taught is "Muslim" are almost opposite one another; this is how hypocritical religious institutions mislead the masses to enrich themselves. There is only one Islam; one with the Father. No books, no teachers, no imams, no prophets, no mosques. It is you, and Allah, and that is it. Allah Himself is sufficient unto all matters.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Literacy in Islam

        The Shahada in it's original Arabic form is أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله

        In here أشهد is what could mean "I bear witness", but it could also mean "I testify" and "testify", some of it's definitions is to give evidence as a witness. to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief, or to serve as evidence or proof.

        Now we could argue about definitions to English words all day. But instead I'll tell you as a native Arabic speaker, it's intended meaning in Arabic is clear, and it is as previous repliers to this thread have described it to you. The declaration of believe and knowledge based on evidence, that evidence being the Quran in this case.

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Literacy in Islam

          Originally posted by Hythem View Post
          The Shahada in it's original Arabic form is أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله

          In here أشهد is what could mean "I bear witness", but it could also mean "I testify" and "testify", some of it's definitions is to give evidence as a witness. to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief, or to serve as evidence or proof.

          Now we could argue about definitions to English words all day. But instead I'll tell you as a native Arabic speaker, it's intended meaning in Arabic is clear, and it is as previous repliers to this thread have described it to you. The declaration of believe and knowledge based on evidence, that evidence being the Quran in this case.
          I think we're getting into semantics here; and as you pointed out, we could argue about translations which would get us nowhere.

          But if you are in a courtroom as a witness, instead of saying "I witnessed..." you say "my testimony is...", it is the same thing. If you are testifying that the Qur'an is the perfect word of God and Muhammad is his final prophet, that's still a testimony/witness statement.

          Now if your testimony is based on the Qur'an / sunnah, that's fine. There is nothing wrong with this. But consider the following:

          Let's say you die, and are brought into the judgment hall. You are called onto the witness stand. There is a blank projection screen which allows you to recall any life experience that is directly within your own experience, and it is displayed to the court for all to see. So whatever you recall within your living experience is projected onto this screen for all, including Allah, to see.

          Now when you say the Shahada, imagine God asks for proof that He sent the Qur'an. You can only use your own internal experience of life; not what other people told you. What do you present? Do you simply say "The Qur'an itself is proof that You sent it." This creates a fallacy; Allah is asking for your proof, you are using the assertion itself (Qur'an is from God) to prove that the Qur'an is from God. It creates an impasse.

          This is what I mean when the "I bear witness.." or "I testify.." commandment was written in stone. You can not break it under any circumstances unless it is a living reality for you. Now we can go even further and take Muhammad as an example; you testify that Muhammad is the final prophet. Allah says prove it. You're in the same boat; in your direct experience of life, Muhammad is not even a man in the flesh, but only an "image" within your mind. Your only perception of Muhammad is what others have told you. Now you go and seek evidence of the real man in the flesh "Muhammad" and discover there is none. The first reference to the man as a flesh man is the inscription on the dome. Indeed, details of the flesh man Muhammad didn't arise until hundreds of years later.

          Now Allah says to you "You accept all of this as sufficient basis for your proof" and you say "yes", then that is self-incriminating because none of it is actually at your experience. It is as such the Shahada is a self-incriminating cosmic indictment based on your own willingness to accept such weak evidence. That is why the commandment was given to people who desired a land free of oppression, and was written in stone. If you do not understand the importance of it, and how by breaking it you are inviting forces (religion) to hijack your mind and cause you oppression, it is your own doing. Consider this:

          Iblis to Allah: "I bet you I can make people testify/witness a dead man with no reliable evidence he even existed."
          Allah to Iblis: "Such people merely invite their own delusions; take them then lest they understand the error of their own ways."

          That's exactly what's happening with any religion which requires you to "testify" to something outside of your experience. If you are saying that there are sufficient experiences within your own life that "proves" the testimony, that's a matter of what you are willing to accept as evidence, which is entirely personal. There is evidence that the Qur'an contains stories already circulated at the time; indeed, some contradict each other. There is little to no evidence (outside the religious institution itself) that Muhammad even existed. There is evidence that many passages in the Qur'an were translated improperly (for example Abraham being thrown into a fire). The evidence is all there, it is just a matter of: do you search for evidence that only validates your presuppositions? Or do you search for evidence for the claims themselves in order to find the real truth?

          This is why Einstein said religion without science is blind. This is why the Qur'an is in the form it is in; your own prophet told you to think, contemplate, reflect on it. That is why to not understand how you are breaking the commandment of witness/testimony only delivers you into oppression/ignorance. Now if you are a prideful person, you will see this not. If your search is truthful, you too can discover the inherent hypocrisy of such testimony. It is a part of the lesson. It goes back to the very first lesson actually; if you continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but not derive the lesson you are supposed to be learning by doing it, it causes death. Like a child putting their hand in fire; if they keep doing it, they eventually die. The only lesson is to stop eating from it, or stop putting your hand in the fire, and that is to become "like" God as the serpent put it. But if you don't see how this testimony/witness statement is self-incriminating and stay firm in your pride, it is the same as leaving your hand in the fire and not learning.

          As such the shahada is like a backdoor trojan program; once you click "install" on the pop-up, you invite a whole host of infiltration. That is why the commandment is there in the first place, and written in stone no less.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Literacy in Islam

            Originally posted by justoneman View Post
            I am going to make one last attempt to explain what Jesus meant by "the Father".
            Correction. One last attempt to explain WHAT YOU BELIEVE that Jesus meant by "the Father". You and I clearly believe different things.
            But then again, you are wasting your time, because I already know what you believe about that, and it is wrong.

            Originally posted by justoneman View Post
            The father is not a man. It is not a human. It is not a biological being.
            That is what you believe, but it can only be wrong.

            Originally posted by justoneman View Post
            Jesus' use of the word "father" is simply in reference to "the instruction as provided directly from Allah" ... The father is not a person; Jesus' use of the word "father" is symbolic for Allah / creation itself.
            IMPOSSIBLE. Gospel according to Thomas 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

            Hence, the Father can impossibly be Allah. It is obviously the Holy Spirit that is Allah.

            Originally posted by justoneman View Post
            For you to say Jesus' father is "in heaven" and therefore dead is just a complete misunderstanding of the entire concept.
            Since his Father is not Allah, and his Father is already in heaven, it can only mean that his Father is dead already. Seriously, read carefully what Jesus says in the Gospels, before jumping to conclusions.

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Literacy in Islam

              You misunderstand me, I never meant to imply, nor in the slightest way intend to say that you should believe the Quran and declare Shahada upon first sight. Nor that you should accept with no evidence or weak evidence.

              My first objection was to your opening argument. Re-afferming that the Shahada in it's original language does not mean "testimony via personal experience" was in response to your opening post to show that the Quran is not self-contradicting, or in conflict with the commandments.

              Now as to your lengthy dialogue about evidence and science. The Quran and Islam does not discourage scrutiny or intellectual discourse. Rather it discourages and warns against following man made fiction.

              Indeed there is no direct self-experience. But it is not the only way. There exists the Quran and our current knowledge of the mortal world. Enough information to comfortably come to the logical conclusion that:
              1)The Quran was preserved
              2)Quran contains information only God could've known at the time
              3)All that is in the Quran came from the same source.(in this case, God)

              Now as to whether there is enough overall info to verify these 3 points or not is another topic. There is. I believe there can exist other ways to examine and come to the conclusion that the Quran is God's word. But I believe your objection was not about the evidence. But about the nature of the evidence. That examinable information and deduction is insufficient. In which case you are very wrong.

              As for your argument about the necessity for personal experience in regards to coming to an intellectual conclusion or presenting said conclusion as testimony. It is simply unbacked or poorly backed at best. Your only supporting statement to it is that the commandments came to us in stone. If you are assuming that it means we should only accept physical evidence or personal experience, then that is a leap in logic from your part. Assumption that since God did this, God meant that. And assumption based on personal interpretation with no backing. This also shows that all hypothetical scenarios you presented are poor examples as said scenarios require that the assumption they are established on(the assumption that self-experience is the only valid testimony) is backed, In this case it's not.

              Finally, mistranslation can never be used as a point against the Quran or Islam. Mistranslation is the fault of the translators in part and the difficulty that comes with translation in part.

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Literacy in Islam

                Originally posted by pronorah View Post
                Correction. One last attempt to explain WHAT YOU BELIEVE that Jesus meant by "the Father". You and I clearly believe different things.
                But then again, you are wasting your time, because I already know what you believe about that, and it is wrong.

                I can accept you and I believe different things, there is no issue with this.

                That is what you believe, but it can only be wrong.

                To me mine, and to you yours. I respect your right to your views, as I would expect others to mine in kind.

                IMPOSSIBLE. Gospel according to Thomas 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

                Yes; is it not written that Allah is oft forebearing, merciful? One can blaspheme the Father if they are astray, but can in kind return to the Father through Christ. Those who blaspheme Christ can also be forgiven because they are astray, but if they turn to Allah through Christ, this is the only way anyways which is why one can be forgiven on either account. But of the Holy Spirit? What did Allah breathe into Adam pbuh to animate him? That would be the holy spirit "breath of life". How did Abram become Abraham pbuh? The same "breath of life" or "Holy Spirit". As such to blaspheme the "breath of life" or "Holy Spirit" can not be forgiven, because to do this is to blaspheme the very spirit which was breathed into Adam in order that we may be here in the first place! Did Isa Ibn Maryam pbuh not say "Before Abraham, I am?"

                Hence, the Father can impossibly be Allah. It is obviously the Holy Spirit that is Allah.

                To say the Holy Spirit is Allah is to say the breath he breathed into Adam is Allah. It is not accurate in my view, but as I said, you may believe what you will, and me mine.

                Since his Father is not Allah, and his Father is already in heaven, it can only mean that his Father is dead already. Seriously, read carefully what Jesus says in the Gospels, before jumping to conclusions.

                I don't think we will reach any accord with this; as before, to me mine and you yours.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Literacy in Islam

                  Originally posted by Hythem View Post
                  You misunderstand me, I never meant to imply, nor in the slightest way intend to say that you should believe the Quran and declare Shahada upon first sight. Nor that you should accept with no evidence or weak evidence.

                  My first objection was to your opening argument. Re-afferming that the Shahada in it's original language does not mean "testimony via personal experience" was in response to your opening post to show that the Quran is not self-contradicting, or in conflict with the commandments.

                  Now as to your lengthy dialogue about evidence and science. The Quran and Islam does not discourage scrutiny or intellectual discourse. Rather it discourages and warns against following man made fiction.

                  Indeed there is no direct self-experience. But it is not the only way. There exists the Quran and our current knowledge of the mortal world. Enough information to comfortably come to the logical conclusion that:
                  1)The Quran was preserved
                  2)Quran contains information only God could've known at the time
                  3)All that is in the Quran came from the same source.(in this case, God)

                  Now as to whether there is enough overall info to verify these 3 points or not is another topic. There is. I believe there can exist other ways to examine and come to the conclusion that the Quran is God's word. But I believe your objection was not about the evidence. But about the nature of the evidence. That examinable information and deduction is insufficient. In which case you are very wrong.

                  This is opening up a dialogue that is likely to become very nasty if we can't control ourselves. Of the three points you made above, I contest all of them. There are many texts in the Qur'an which are easily traceable to pre-existing Syro-Aramaic liturgical texts that predates Islam entirely. The burning of the Qur'ans and reliance of oral tradition calls much into question, and the Qur'an is proven to contain texts which came from multiple sources. This is a part of the "test". I am not stating the Qur'an was not divinely inspired, but these contentions you made above, as I see them, are not correct. For example, there is no science in the Qur'an which was not known at the time it was developed. While this may be undesirable to hear, the proof is there should one seek it. This should not discredit the Qur'an or Muhammad pbuh, it should only serve as yet another piece of the puzzle in order to complete the "test".

                  As for your argument about the necessity for personal experience in regards to coming to an intellectual conclusion or presenting said conclusion as testimony. It is simply unbacked or poorly backed at best. Your only supporting statement to it is that the commandments came to us in stone. If you are assuming that it means we should only accept physical evidence or personal experience, then that is a leap in logic from your part. Assumption that since God did this, God meant that. And assumption based on personal interpretation with no backing. This also shows that all hypothetical scenarios you presented are poor examples as said scenarios require that the assumption they are established on(the assumption that self-experience is the only valid testimony) is backed, In this case it's not.

                  The backing is provided by the narrative that follows and involves literacy. The Israelites broke the commandments which were set in stone. Moses then broke the commandments to show what happens; people worship physical objects and chaos and oppression comes as a result. This is not arbitrary; this is a very specific lesson which is intended to impart the "here is why" they were written in stone. We can disagree on this, but the narrative is clear in my mind. It is the same with the first story; you can't know why not to eat from the tree of good and evil until you see the consequences (personal experience) of doing it. So to do it, and realize your mistake, is to derive lesson. Likewise, to break the commandment(s) and derive lesson is to come closer to a state of existence free from oppression; that is to say, if you don't realize you're breaking the commandments, oppression ensues. It is the oppression itself which is supposed to make you think "wait a minute, something is not quite right here". Now we may disagree on this but there are no hard feelings on my end; to each their own.

                  Finally, mistranslation can never be used as a point against the Quran or Islam. Mistranslation is the fault of the translators in part and the difficulty that comes with translation in part.
                  Indeed; but should that mistranslation be treated as "Word of God", despite it being wrong, that's a problem. It is the responsibility of the individual to verify the veracity of the text itself. Failing this, if he/she just takes the text as "perfect word of God" and does not incline themselves to personally check it, then this is a serious problem which opens the door to a whole host of other issues.

                  Now with regard to the shahada, I would still maintain that indeed it is in contradiction to the commandments, but this is a point of contention specific to each individual so there is likely no way we will see eye to eye on this. From my own perspective; if this commandment were followed properly, there would be much less oppression in the world.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Literacy in Islam

                    Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                    Now with regard to the shahada, I would still maintain that indeed it is in contradiction to the commandments
                    But come on! Read carefully what Jesus said about "the Father":

                    Thomas 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

                    That is why I spit, urinate, and defecate on "the Father". I also think that "the Father" was a subhuman piece of dog shit. If you believe that Jesus was the messenger of Allah, and that what he said, is true, then you must agree with me that I will be forgiven for saying that. That is also why I say it. Seriously, why am I saying this? Because I can.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Literacy in Islam

                      Originally posted by pronorah View Post
                      But come on! Read carefully what Jesus said about "the Father":

                      Thomas 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

                      That is why I spit, urinate, and defecate on "the Father". I also think that "the Father" was a subhuman piece of dog shit. If you believe that Jesus was the messenger of Allah, and that what he said, is true, then you must agree with me that I will be forgiven for saying that. That is also why I say it. Seriously, why am I saying this? Because I can.
                      You will be forgiven.

                      I present to you the creation account of man:

                      Day one: Allah said let there be light. Isa pbuh says "You are the light of the world". No matter was created yet. As such what you refer to as your "self" completely transcends the physical.
                      Day two: Allah said let the waters be divided from the waters and sky.
                      Day three: Allah said let there be foliage; the basis of life.
                      Day four: Allah said let there be the sun, stars, planets and let them be for signs.
                      Day five: Allah said let there be marine life and birds; consistent with evolution (marine life came first).
                      Day six: Allah said let there be land animals/humans; consistent with evolution (land life came after marine life).
                      Day seven: Allah rests.

                      Now Adam pbuh "evolved" from more primitive homonids; if you are truthful in saying that the Qur'an does not reject science, and evolution theory (a theory is a premise based on facts) is true, then it is so. Now God creates Adam from "the clay", which means you were "evolved" from the same constituents that form the earth; carbon-based life. He put Adam to sleep and made Eve from his own rib; the basis of embryonic cell division "one becomes two". Adam means "Atom" which is matter/action, Eve means "energy/desire". Matter/energy. God says you can eat from any tree (you can do whatever you wish in life) but don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because it is the cause of death. The serpent says you will not die but become "like" God, to know good and evil. By saying the serpent is evil/Iblis is breaking Allah's first commandment. They are both neutral. Eve (desire) lets her sense organs tempt her "it would be desirable to become wise" and she eats and gives to Adam and he eats. Their eyes are opened, they feel shame and "hide" from Allah. Allah was merely walking in the "cool of the day" until he calls Adam to show himself. Adam is hidden because of his shame. God asks Adam "who told you that you were naked?" and they were expelled from the Garden.

                      Allah is still in the Garden; Garden of Eden. Jesus/Isa pbuh is referring to his father as the same Garden-dweller "Allah" just as in the first story on all of scripture. If you think otherwise, that is your choice, but to say "the Father" is dead is rather bizarre. That's like saying Allah is dead. That's why he says whoever blasphemes the Father will be forgiven (it is natural), whoever blasphemes Christ will be forgiven (it is natural), but the holy spirit (breath of life breathed into Adam) either on earth or in heaven/the Garden will not be forgiven because to deny the very essence of life "holy spirit" is to deny life itself. It's like God breathing the breath of life into Adam and Adam saying "I don't want this." You may as well go commit suicide if this is what you actually believe. Because that's what denying the holy spirit is; the breath of life itself.
                      Last edited by justoneman; 18-09-17, 01:14 AM.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Literacy in Islam

                        Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                        You will be forgiven.
                        I really took a risk there. If "the Father" were our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, it would be very dangerous to say that. The point is, however, that I am 100% sure that "the Father" of Jesus was not Allah. Jesus himself clearly admits it, and not just in the Quran. Jesus admits it everywhere. Seriously, Jesus was a messenger of Allah and always spoke the truth.

                        Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                        if you are truthful in saying that the Qur'an does not reject science, and evolution theory (a theory is a premise based on facts) is true, then it is so.
                        "Evolution theory" is not provable nor testable/falsifiable. It is not a theory. It is a conjecture. Evolution conjecture could possibly make sense in one way or another, but why would that even be important? I do not analyze all possible conjectures in depth. In fact, I do not particularly care about conjectures.

                        Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                        If you think otherwise, that is your choice, but to say "the Father" is dead is rather bizarre.
                        From what Jesus says, I just assume that he is. Why would he ask us to pray for his father who is already in heaven, if he were still alive when Jesus said that?

                        Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                        That's like saying Allah is dead.
                        No, no, "the Father" was not Allah. As I told you, Jesus gave us the permission to liberally spit, urinate, and defecate on "the Father". That is why I do it. I actually enjoy doing that. It is even fun. I like to throw mud at him. Why not?

                        Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                        That's why he says whoever blasphemes the Father will be forgiven (it is natural)
                        Yes, that is exactly why I do that. My new hobby is to incessantly make derogatory remarks about "the Father".

                        Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                        whoever blasphemes Christ will be forgiven (it is natural)
                        Jesus may have allowed it, but the Quran throws a spanner in the works. The Islamic scriptures forbid this. So, no, I am not interested in making that kind of remarks about Jesus.

                        Originally posted by justoneman View Post
                        but the holy spirit (breath of life breathed into Adam) either on earth or in heaven/the Garden will not be forgiven because to deny the very essence of life "holy spirit" is to deny life itself.
                        Yes, Jesus meant to say that the Holy Spirit is Allah, our beloved Master. Jesus was obviously right.

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                          #27
                          Re: Literacy in Islam

                          Originally posted by pronorah View Post
                          I really took a risk there. If "the Father" were our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, it would be very dangerous to say that. The point is, however, that I am 100% sure that "the Father" of Jesus was not Allah. Jesus himself clearly admits it, and not just in the Quran. Jesus admits it everywhere. Seriously, Jesus was a messenger of Allah and always spoke the truth.


                          "Evolution theory" is not provable nor testable/falsifiable. It is not a theory. It is a conjecture. Evolution conjecture could possibly make sense in one way or another, but why would that even be important? I do not analyze all possible conjectures in depth. In fact, I do not particularly care about conjectures.


                          From what Jesus says, I just assume that he is. Why would he ask us to pray for his father who is already in heaven, if he were still alive when Jesus said that?


                          No, no, "the Father" was not Allah. As I told you, Jesus gave us the permission to liberally spit, urinate, and defecate on "the Father". That is why I do it. I actually enjoy doing that. It is even fun. I like to throw mud at him. Why not?


                          Yes, that is exactly why I do that. My new hobby is to incessantly make derogatory remarks about "the Father".


                          Jesus may have allowed it, but the Quran throws a spanner in the works. The Islamic scriptures forbid this. So, no, I am not interested in making that kind of remarks about Jesus.


                          Yes, Jesus meant to say that the Holy Spirit is Allah, our beloved Master. Jesus was obviously right.
                          1) I am no longer interested in this thread but I would like to make few more remarks. You are right that the theory of evolution is based on conjecture, you can refer to this video for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAlkL9vbtD4. Nonetheless, Islam is only against the idea of human beings having common ancestor with other species.

                          2) Even if you think the "Father" is not Allah, you should not insult other people's religion. Allah said:

                          A) And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.(Surah 6:108).

                          3) Christians and Jews use "Father" in a metaphoric way, it is even in the Quran:

                          A) But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. (Surah 5:18).

                          4) Angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit:

                          A) "And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit." (Surah 2:87)

                          B) Say, [O Muhammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims." (Surah 16:102).
                          Last edited by Calender121438; 18-09-17, 05:30 AM.

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                            #28
                            Re: Literacy in Islam

                            Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                            2) Even if you think the "Father" is not Allah, you should not insult other people's religion.
                            Well, it is Jesus himself who gave that permission ...

                            Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                            Allah said: A) And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.(Surah 6:108).
                            Since "the Father" is not Allah, 100% sure of that, I am not insulting our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah. Jesus guarantees that it is absolutely safe to insult "The Father". The last ones who should question the truth of what Jesus says, are the Christians. Are you really suggesting that Jesus is a liar? This is not allowed, neither in Christianity, nor in Islam.
                            Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                            3) Christians and Jews use "Father" in a metaphoric way, it is even in the Quran.
                            You are questioning the truth of what Jesus said. That is not permissible.
                            Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                            4) Angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit: A) "And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit." (Surah 2:87)
                            The Biblical "Holy Spirit" and Quranic "Pure Spirit" cannot be the same entity. Angel Gabriel is not "Holy". Only our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah is Holy and worthy of worship.

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                              #29
                              Re: Literacy in Islam

                              I just wanted to add one line here regarding evolution.

                              Evolution is not conjecture. It is not a baseless "theory". A theory is the highest status in any scientific classification. For example, we have a theory of gravity. Gravity is a fact. We have a theory of evolution. Evolution is a fact. It is written in Genesis that biological life began in a distinct time period; marine life begin in a distinct time period; and land/human life began in a specific time period. Science is demonstrably proven that all life originated in the water and evolved onto land. It's in the very first book of all scripture. It is not conjecture.

                              Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind. -Einstein

                              This is a word equation. It states that one must measure religion against science, and vice versa. If there are individuals who still believe that Allah created man as man, and not evolved from the whole process of life as outlined in Genesis, it is just pure ignorance that stems from personal pride. Our DNA is 98.77% identical to a chimpanzee; we evolved from more primitive hominids.

                              That's why animal sacrifice is necessary; to "sacrifice" the "animal" nature within that comes along with evolution that we may evolve further. To deny evolution is to stagnate and remain in animal nature. Imitation is an animal trait. Idolatry is imitation. Idolatry is forbidden by God. It is all connected.

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