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Some Questions about Islam

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  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by saadking View Post
    Leaving any country is not considered treason. get your facts right. thousands of people migrated from sub contintent to uk and europe. are these alm traitors should we kill them all. Treason is when you have any important information regarding your country or government that is considered as secret and you give it to another country with permission. there are no secrets in islam . anyone muslim or non muslim can open the quran and read about islam. there is no confidential information in islam. so your arguement seem illogical. its pure simple if someone does not want to follow it why force them.
    Troll post,

    Nobody said anything about leaving a country,

    I said treason against the king was punished by death,

    Allah عز و جل is king of all Creation,

    Apostasy is treason against Allah عز و جل against the oath, the Shahada the said person took when he accepted Islam,

    Your dubious arguments have no bearing on Islam.

    Nobody is allowed to follow and refuse to follow the law,

    This isn't anarchism, even your fellow Kuffar buddies don't allow that in their nations,

    Any more Absurd arguments?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikha’eel
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by saadking View Post
    Asalam Walikum,

    I don't know how to being, i am a Muslim living in Pakistan, 24 years of age. as i am progressing in life, my believe in Islam is becoming weaker and weaker. i pray 5 times a day but have no passion in it, maybe the only reason i do it is because i am doing it my entire life. The reason of my week faith is that i fail to understand certain things in Islam. Please don't find my questions offensive as i want answers of these.

    Firstly i don't understand the concept of apostate in Islam, most religious people or scholars i have heard think that person who apostate that is leaves Islam should be killed, i just don't understand the logic of it, if someone does not want to follow Islam, why kill him. i think a person should be allowed to follow any faith or religion he wants. if we believe that apostate should be killed, then the non Muslims can apply the principle on people converting to islam in their countries, thousands of non Muslims convert to Islam in west every year, that if America or UK passes a law that says that anyone converting from Christianity would be killed. Would that be justified? then how is Islamic punishment of apostate is justified?.

    Secondly what about the law of blasphemy. In Pakistan everyday we hear cases of people being accused of blasphemy most of them being non Muslims. and when a person gets accused he is lucky if he gets behind bars, because it is usual that a big mob would gather outside his house to kill me and then would burn entire non Muslims neighborhoods because one person is accused of blasphemy.even the religious scholars would call for his death, without even confirming the whether he is guilty or not. It has become so easy to accuse anyone of blasphemy especially if they are non Muslims. i don't understand this law. Why should a blasphemer be killed?. Why not let Allah deal with him at the day of judgement. and what is the definition of blasphemy. What if someone don't abuse Allah or prophet Muhammad but just does not agree with something that they says or debates any thing they say. would he be a blasphemer?. as a Muslim, if someone debates or challenges anything in Islam, should not we challenge him logically instead of calling for their death.

    Please answer my questions,as i am really confused about them.

    Right and wrong is determined by Allah
    The problem with places like Pakistan, they've become to westernized and liberalized and determine right and wrong based on kufr standards.

    The punishment for apostasy is clear in the Sunnah. It is the command of the Prophet :saw: & Allah

    Same goes for blasphemy. However in Pakistan people are clearly abusing this concept to settle scores with others and to gain some wordly benefit from doing it, not for any love of deen.
    There is no such thing as mob justice in Islam.

    Anyone guilty of blasphemy needs to be dealt with by the state, after clear guilt has been established against them.

    Leave a comment:


  • saadking
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    وعليكم السلام والرحمة الله وبركاته

    We had penalties for treason against the state, against the king, for ages and now you think that treason against the one who created us and gave us Everything should be allowed and not punished?

    The Shahada actually means something and has several implications,

    If you know who Allah عز و جل is then you know that you have no right to object to any punishment set in Islam,

    Criminals or the general public don't decide on what Hadd punishment and what length they out to be,

    This isn't democracy, man "playing God"

    Allah عز و جل is the legislator,

    Hadd are set in the Shariah to prevent Fitna and Fassad from spreading, it is for the good of the society,

    Emotional arguments have no bearing on them,
    Leaving any country is not considered treason. get your facts right. thousands of people migrated from sub contintent to uk and europe. are these alm traitors should we kill them all. Treason is when you have any important information regarding your country or government that is considered as secret and you give it to another country with permission. there are no secrets in islam . anyone muslim or non muslim can open the quran and read about islam. there is no confidential information in islam. so your arguement seem illogical. its pure simple if someone does not want to follow it why force them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by saadking View Post
    Asalam Walikum,

    I don't know how to being, i am a Muslim living in Pakistan, 24 years of age. as i am progressing in life, my believe in Islam is becoming weaker and weaker. i pray 5 times a day but have no passion in it, maybe the only reason i do it is because i am doing it my entire life. The reason of my week faith is that i fail to understand certain things in Islam. Please don't find my questions offensive as i want answers of these.

    Firstly i don't understand the concept of apostate in Islam, most religious people or scholars i have heard think that person who apostate that is leaves Islam should be killed, i just don't understand the logic of it, if someone does not want to follow Islam, why kill him. i think a person should be allowed to follow any faith or religion he wants. if we believe that apostate should be killed, then the non Muslims can apply the principle on people converting to islam in their countries, thousands of non Muslims convert to Islam in west every year, that if America or UK passes a law that says that anyone converting from Christianity would be killed. Would that be justified? then how is Islamic punishment of apostate is justified?.

    Secondly what about the law of blasphemy. In Pakistan everyday we hear cases of people being accused of blasphemy most of them being non Muslims. and when a person gets accused he is lucky if he gets behind bars, because it is usual that a big mob would gather outside his house to kill me and then would burn entire non Muslims neighborhoods because one person is accused of blasphemy.even the religious scholars would call for his death, without even confirming the whether he is guilty or not. It has become so easy to accuse anyone of blasphemy especially if they are non Muslims. i don't understand this law. Why should a blasphemer be killed?. Why not let Allah deal with him at the day of judgement. and what is the definition of blasphemy. What if someone don't abuse Allah or prophet Muhammad but just does not agree with something that they says or debates any thing they say. would he be a blasphemer?. as a Muslim, if someone debates or challenges anything in Islam, should not we challenge him logically instead of calling for their death.

    Please answer my questions,as i am really confused about them.
    وعليكم السلام والرحمة الله وبركاته

    We had penalties for treason against the state, against the king, for ages and now you think that treason against the one who created us and gave us Everything should be allowed and not punished?

    The Shahada actually means something and has several implications,

    If you know who Allah عز و جل is then you know that you have no right to object to any punishment set in Islam,

    Criminals or the general public don't decide on what Hadd punishment and what length they out to be,

    This isn't democracy, man "playing God"

    Allah عز و جل is the legislator,

    Hadd are set in the Shariah to prevent Fitna and Fassad from spreading, it is for the good of the society,

    Emotional arguments have no bearing on them,

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Kamel
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    :start:

    Allah informs of in the Holy Quran 33:72 (TMQ):
    And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."


    It is reported on the authority of Abu Mu'awiya that (the Holy Prophet) said:
    Every new-born babe is born on the millat (of Islam and he) remains on this until his tongue is enabled to express himself. This hadith has been narratted on the authority of Abu Mu'awiya through another chain of transmitters (and the words are):" Every child is born but on this Fitra so long as he does not express himself with his tongue." [sahih Muslims]

    Abu Hurairah reported the Messenger of Allah as saying :
    Every child is born on Islam, but his parents make him a Jew and a Christian, just as a beast is born whole. Do you find some among them (born) maimed? The people asked : Messenger of Allah! What do you think about the one who died while he was young? He replied : Allah knows best what he was going to do. [sahih Abi Dawud]

    And Allah AWJ commanded us regarding this Amanah and Covenant with Allah:
    30:30
    So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth [deeni hanifaan]. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people[naas]. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion[deenu], but most of the people do not know.
    33:23
    Of the believers are men who are true to that which they covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting; and they have not altered in the least;
    16:95
    And do not exchange the covenant of Allah for a small price. Indeed, what is with Allah is best for you, if only you could know.
    And there are many other ayaat that show that Man to the Amaanah "trust" from Allah, and entered into a Covenant with Allah. And Allah AWJ created us inclined and in the nature, fitrah, to worship Allah alone true to our Covenant with Allah. This the original fundamental nature of Man- designed and created and already testified to worship Allah alone.

    51:56
    And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.
    He who changes his religion (i.e. apostates) kill him." [ sahih Al-Bukhari]

    What is truly equal to compensating Allah for all that He has done for the one who apostatizes? There is nothing equal.

    According to Ibn Rushd's seminal work Bidayatul Mujtahid, all the four schools are in agreement of the execution of the apostate male before he declares war. And this because of the text from Ibn Abbas :RA:. The fuqaha differ in terms of the woman, and differ whether he should be executed immediately upon judgment, or should wait 3 days to allow for repentance/Tauba.
    The majority agreed that the female apostate is to be executed, where as Abu Hanifa (rh) said she is not to be executed and compared her to the kafir woman.

    As for the matter of kufr, there are two kinds: kufr asghar ( minor kufr) and kufr akbar (major kufr).
    It is understood that minor kufr does not take one out of Islam, and doesn;t apply here.

    Major kufr has several variations:
    1. Kufr juhud (denial) text: 27:13,14
    2. Kufr takdhib (rejection) text: 6:147
    3. Kufr istakbaar (pride) text: 38:71-74
    4. Kufr ihstihzaa ( mocking) text: 9:65,66
    5. Kufr iraad (fleeing from Islam) text: 74:49-53
    6. Kufr inaad ( stubbornness) text: 50:24-26
    7. Kufr istibdaal ( replacing Shariah) text: 42::21 2:85,86



    Of kufr istibdaal, there are:
    1) fabricating Shariah by replacing it with man made laws and claiming they at from Shariah
    Text: 50:21
    2)denying Shariah but not overtly renouncing; text: 2:85,86
    3)denying Shariah by renouncing; text 5:44-49



    So riddah, apostasy and reneging, is clearly execution as determined from the Sunnah. And the matter for the apostate should go to the judge if it is before he has declared a state of war.

    It should be noted that those who refused to pay zakat to khalif Abu Bakr :RA: were declared apostates, murtadeen and the war to overcome their rebellion was call Harbul Riddah.

    So the matter of apostasy is not merely an issue of personal preferences, free choice, backing out of a contract or deal. It is a matter of treachery, betraying one's sworn Covenant and testimony before Allah. The person has been granted untold rahmat and blessings from Allah and only after accumulating and taking advantage of them, does he turn renegade and traitor.

    As for the text cited by Abu Amina elias and Yaqeen Institute about the bedouin allowed to leave Madinah, ulama have addressed this NOT as evidence allowing apostasy, but rather the bedouin was seeking to renege his migration. Maliki shaykh Ibn Bataal identified that the bedouin went to the Prophet which is a recognition of obedience to the Prophet . So this act showed it was NOT apostasy, but seeking to renege on his migration to Madinah.
    And this would be consistent with other such events where new Muslims fell sick and asked to leave Madinah.

    And Allah knows best.

    Leave a comment:


  • saadking
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    :insha: I will respond in depth for the sake of Allah to the believers, regardless of the OP.

    [MENTION=144438]saadking[/MENTION] like I said, I don't think you are truthful. Your first few words are my evidence. You claim you don't know how to [begin], but then articulate an entire legal argument? And not from the perspective of Islam, but with a bias for a secular liberal ideological viewpoint.
    Start with "bismillah" :start:

    When I mentioned "Indian" you responded to either"laugh at me or cry for me"- hardly a brother's reply.

    Whomever you are, you appear to be presenting a deviant interpretation of a specific concept in Islam, in what appears to be an attempt to perpetuate a liberal ideological perspective onto the Deen. I am likely right, with the possibility of being wrong.

    But for the sake of sincere advise, :insha: I will reply in depth with evidences and legal opinions of the upright ulama of the salaf was salih, rather than from the Yaqeen institute founded by Omar Suliemen and advised bby the likes of Tariq Ramadan.
    I am waiting for your detailed reply brother.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Kamel
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    :insha: I will respond in depth for the sake of Allah to the believers, regardless of the OP.

    [MENTION=144438]saadking[/MENTION] like I said, I don't think you are truthful. Your first few words are my evidence. You claim you don't know how to [begin], but then articulate an entire legal argument? And not from the perspective of Islam, but with a bias for a secular liberal ideological viewpoint.
    Start with "bismillah" :start:

    When I mentioned "Indian" you responded to either"laugh at me or cry for me"- hardly a brother's reply.

    Whomever you are, you appear to be presenting a deviant interpretation of a specific concept in Islam, in what appears to be an attempt to perpetuate a liberal ideological perspective onto the Deen. I am likely right, with the possibility of being wrong.

    But for the sake of sincere advise, :insha: I will reply in depth with evidences and legal opinions of the upright ulama of the salaf was salih, rather than from the Yaqeen institute founded by Omar Suliemen and advised bby the likes of Tariq Ramadan.

    Leave a comment:


  • horizon
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by saadking View Post
    Here is the correct link [MENTION=143728]horizon[/MENTION]
    http://abuaminaelias.com/did-the-pro...ther-religion/
    JazakAllah brother for providing the full link.

    I did some research and the brother who wrote that article is part of this organization: https://yaqeeninstitute.org

    There seems to be a more lengthy answer on their site as well (concerning the same topic): https://yaqeeninstitute.org/en/jonathan-brown/apostasy/

    I honestly don't know this organization or anything about them.

    If any other brothers/sisters are aware of of this organization or what was written in that article, they can weigh in with a qualified opinion (people with the knowledge to confirm what was written).

    Leave a comment:


  • Sky Lark
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Ok true, wasnt a ruling... was just giving my limited understanding..not good idea, @ horizon.

    Leave a comment:


  • saadking
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by horizon View Post
    The sister has the wrong interpretation just like you did.

    Also, the source-link you posted returns as Not Found. Can you post the full link to that source brother?

    Edit: Although the sister did not explicitly say Apostates will be killed if they leave Islam, I'm not sure what she is implying by saying this:



    If you aren't qualified to give Tafsir of Quraan or of Islamic rulings, please be careful of doing so, sister.
    Here is the correct link [MENTION=143728]horizon[/MENTION]
    http://abuaminaelias.com/did-the-pro...ther-religion/

    Leave a comment:


  • horizon
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by saadking View Post
    If Apostate will be killed in a land govern by islam then how is this not complusion. so basically you also believe killing someone is justified if they leave islam.
    The sister has the wrong interpretation just like you did.

    Also, the source-link you posted returns as Not Found. Can you post the full link to that source brother?

    Edit: Although the sister did not explicitly say Apostates will be killed if they leave Islam, I'm not sure what she is implying by saying this:

    so, la ikraha fiddin wont apply to murtads.
    If you aren't qualified to give Tafsir of Quraan or of Islamic rulings, please be careful of doing so, sister.
    Last edited by horizon; 05-07-17, 11:18 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • saadking
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by Sky Lark View Post
    When we say there is no freedom/compulsion in religion it would mean you cannot force a kafir to become muslim. [MENTION=144438]saadking[/MENTION].

    Apostates and general kafirs are not the same they will be treated differently in a land govern by pure Islam, so, la ikraha fiddin wont apply to murtads.
    If Apostate will be killed in a land govern by islam then how is this not complusion. so basically you also believe killing someone is justified if they leave islam.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sky Lark
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    When we say there is no freedom/compulsion in religion it would mean you cannot force a kafir to become muslim. [MENTION=144438]saadking[/MENTION].

    Apostates and general kafirs are not the same they will be treated differently in a land govern by pure Islam, so, la ikraha fiddin wont apply to murtads.

    Leave a comment:


  • saadking
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by Sky Lark View Post
    [MENTION=144438]saadking[/MENTION], what do you think of the replies you got?
    http://abuaminaelias.com/did-the-pro...ther-religion/

    Leave a comment:


  • saadking
    replied
    Re: Some Questions about Islam

    Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    I don't believe the OP is truthful. Rather, he is likely a liberalized Pakistani, or perhaps not even that, perhaps he's an Indian.
    I dont know either to laugh at you or cry for you. ok so if i ask a question that you have a hard time answering that either i am a liberal or an indian. what kind of stupid logic is this. grow up my friend.

    Leave a comment:

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