Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    In the Quran the Allah is referred many times as first person singular (I), first person plural (we) and 3rd person singular (he).

    Is it possible that it is angels speaking and it is not magestic plural (we) for Allah? For example in Surah Maryam, the speaker always uses "we" and never used "I" once, and it become obvious in following verses why:

    Such is the Garden which We give as an inheritance to those of Our servants who guard against Evil.
    And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:63-64]


    Obviously "We" is not Allah that descends by the command of anyone? But there is no context of angels before in that chapter. Can we say that other verses in that chapter and probably rest of the Quran where God is referred to as "he" or "thy lord" it is angles speaking? If not why not?

    And in very first chapter of the Quran, it is not god saying: Show us the straight way!..

  • Thunderstorm
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    verse 19:68 and I didn't write it as literal translation but the verse means it, it's "we" saying "by your Lord":
    So by your Lord, We will surely gather them and the devils; then We will bring them to be present around Hell upon their knees.

    I'll give you an example and perhaps you can help clear my confusion that how can that be an eloquent sentence?

    He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. [31:10]

    If "he" and "we" are both the same person in that single verse? Then why use two different pronouns there?


    If you still have questions about pronouns, it's time to start learning Arabic.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbdullahiG
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    verse 19:68 and I didn't write it as literal translation but the verse means it, it's "we" saying "by your Lord":
    So by your Lord, We will surely gather them and the devils; then We will bring them to be present around Hell upon their knees.

    I'll give you an example and perhaps you can help clear my confusion that how can that be an eloquent sentence?

    He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. [31:10]

    If "he" and "we" are both the same person in that single verse? Then why use two different pronouns there?
    Allah can swear by anything He likes, even Himself!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • shabbir80
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    Firstly, where does it say "We swear by your lord"?
    verse 19:68 and I didn't write it as literal translation but the verse means it, it's "we" saying "by your Lord":
    So by your Lord, We will surely gather them and the devils; then We will bring them to be present around Hell upon their knees.

    I'll give you an example and perhaps you can help clear my confusion that how can that be an eloquent sentence?

    He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. [31:10]

    If "he" and "we" are both the same person in that single verse? Then why use two different pronouns there?
    Last edited by shabbir80; 15-08-16, 07:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thunderstorm
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    @ Thunderstorm

    And how would you know that other verses after that are not part of that answer (without tafsir)?
    When you know the question, you use your eyeballs and brain to detect the answer and its scope in a text.
    How do you know of the question without tafsir?

    In the answer verse (i.e. 19:64) Allah is referred to as "your lord" and again in verse 19:68, "We" swear by "your lord". Allah swears by "your lord"?
    Firstly, where does it say "We swear by your lord"?
    Secondly, yes, third person iltifat. What is the problem? Is He not the Lord of Muhammad(salallahu alayhi wa sallam)?

    Again, In verse 16:69 it sounds like "We" is talking about third person singular "the most merciful".

    In 19:73, the term used is "Our verses" instead of "verses of your lord".

    In 19:85, "We" will gather the righteous to "the Most Merciful" as delegation (not to "us").

    In 19:94, "He" has enumerated them .. (Not "We").

    In 19:95, All of them are coming to "Him" on the day or reurrection (not to "Us").

    Two verses later, verse 19:97, again its "We"

    "We" and "him" are used repeatedly in the same chapter.
    So basically your issue is, "Did the author mean what he meant?". And my answer is "Yes.". Why would the author lie about the obvious? Or make so many simple mistakes? He didn't lie nor were they mistakes, and none of the worst critics of the Qur'an at the time complained about it - but it would've been the easiest thing to use to discredit the author regardless of their identity.
    This is because it is all syntactically legal with regards to the semantics in Semitic languages. Even in some of the western languages can you do this; I speak many, but only in English have I had this discussion.

    If you don't believe me when I tell you this, consider how likely it is that you discover something groundbreaking like this in a translation over a millennium later and everyone else missed it.
    Is there a case in the Quran where Allah says, Worship us instead of worship me or worship him or worship your lord?
    No.
    In pure monotheism scenarios and where assuming that the speakers are angels can lead to problems. I could not find any such case. for example verse 20:14, it's "I" and not "We":

    Indeed, "I" am Allah. There is no deity except "Me", so worship "Me" and establish prayer for "My" remembrance. [20:14]

    Is it possible to establish distinction without tafsir? And has scholars found any linguistic or theistic rule by which "I" and "We" are used in the Quran?
    You can discern most of the relevance of the content without tafsir, and most of the practical context, but you can't discern the whole context just like any other sequence of replies/messages over the course of several decades requires the whole context for you to know what it is all about, because it isn't a story and it is revealed at a point in time in a sequence relevant to history. Which means you do need to know the history behind it to understand it fully, but without knowing the history you can understand it to a certain degree in places where no history is needed.
    Last edited by Thunderstorm; 15-08-16, 05:31 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jannahseeker,
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    @ Thunderstorm

    And how would you know that other verses after that are not part of that answer (without tafsir)?

    In the answer verse (i.e. 19:64) Allah is referred to as "your lord" and again in verse 19:68, "We" swear by "your lord". Allah swears by "your lord"?

    Again, In verse 16:69 it sounds like "We" is talking about third person singular "the most merciful".

    In 19:73, the term used is "Our verses" instead of "verses of your lord".

    In 19:85, "We" will gather the righteous to "the Most Merciful" as delegation (not to "us").

    In 19:94, "He" has enumerated them .. (Not "We").

    In 19:95, All of them are coming to "Him" on the day or reurrection (not to "Us").

    Two verses later, verse 19:97, again its "We"

    "We" and "him" are used repeatedly in the same chapter.


    Is there a case in the Quran where Allah says, Worship us instead of worship me or worship him or worship your lord? In pure monotheism scenarios and where assuming that the speakers are angels can lead to problems. I could not find any such case. for example verse 20:14, it's "I" and not "We":

    Indeed, "I" am Allah. There is no deity except "Me", so worship "Me" and establish prayer for "My" remembrance. [20:14]

    Is it possible to establish distinction without tafsir? And has scholars found any linguistic or theistic rule by which "I" and "We" are used in the Quran?
    we is used in Quran because muslims are the only people who insist on the most radical monothiesm ever!; just look up the nullifiers of Islam; any tainting of the 100% pure concept of monothiesm and a person is out!!!!, therefore muslims will have no problem understanding the 'we' as a royal we without any risk of polytheism at all

    Leave a comment:


  • shabbir80
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    @ Thunderstorm

    And how would you know that other verses after that are not part of that answer (without tafsir)?

    In the answer verse (i.e. 19:64) Allah is referred to as "your lord" and again in verse 19:68, "We" swear by "your lord". Allah swears by "your lord"?

    Again, In verse 16:69 it sounds like "We" is talking about third person singular "the most merciful".

    In 19:73, the term used is "Our verses" instead of "verses of your lord".

    In 19:85, "We" will gather the righteous to "the Most Merciful" as delegation (not to "us").

    In 19:94, "He" has enumerated them .. (Not "We").

    In 19:95, All of them are coming to "Him" on the day or reurrection (not to "Us").

    Two verses later, verse 19:97, again its "We"

    "We" and "him" are used repeatedly in the same chapter.


    Is there a case in the Quran where Allah says, Worship us instead of worship me or worship him or worship your lord? In pure monotheism scenarios and where assuming that the speakers are angels can lead to problems. I could not find any such case. for example verse 20:14, it's "I" and not "We":

    Indeed, "I" am Allah. There is no deity except "Me", so worship "Me" and establish prayer for "My" remembrance. [20:14]

    Is it possible to establish distinction without tafsir? And has scholars found any linguistic or theistic rule by which "I" and "We" are used in the Quran?
    Last edited by shabbir80; 15-08-16, 02:27 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thunderstorm
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    What the messenger of Allah said to Jibril is not anywhere in the Quran. Is that abrupt change of topic in the middle of another topic, the unique literary style of the Quran? I'm studying the Quran again chapter by chapter and finding this incoherent topic shifting confusing.

    Because if Your read the entire chapter and verses before 19:64 and after, you might see what I mean, unless the entire chapter is narrated from the point of view of angels as there is no "I" anywhere.

    But to be honest the very next verse 19:65 also seems like a continuation of the previous verse. 19:64 mentions the lord. 19:65 says "Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them" like showing the attributes of the lord mentioned in previous verse. Perhaps that is something in Arabic language but does that sentence make sense to you in English? "Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them - So worship him .. ", unless the context of the lord is established before that like in 19:64.
    If it is confusing, it is because there's a larger context to it. Like for example in 9:36, it says:
    :start:
    The number of months in the sight of God is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that God is with those who restrain themselves.
    and in 37 it continues,
    Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by God and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But God guideth not those who reject Faith.
    But 35 and 38 have nothing to do with it.
    In the tafsir(exegesis) of Ala Maududi, it is explained:
    [...]This has been mentioned to refute the practice of nasi (v. 37) whereby the pagan Arabs increased the number of the months of a year to 13 or 14 to enable them to interpose in the calendar the forbidden month which had been made lawful by them. (For fuller explanation see E.N. 37).[...]
    i.e. a situation arose where this was relevant, and so a relevant verse was revealed to address it. It would not make sense if people are at a stalemate about the calendar or have some questions about it, and a revelation comes to tell them about how volcanoes are formed or describing Paradise or something.
    We keep the commentaries, exegeses, eye-witness reports, reports of incidents/history, biographies, poetry etc. separate from the words of Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala), i.e. the Qur'an, which is why we can now still say that it is 100% the words of Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala).

    1. Hence the Qur'an would not be the Qur'an if the words of the prophet(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) were in it.
    2. Simply finishing one topic and moving on to the next is not "abrupt change of topic in the middle of another topic". A question was asked, and the answer came in the form of 19:64-65 - end of topic. And 63 was the end of the previous topic("Such is the Garden..." signalling that it is the end of the description of the Garden that was begun during verse 60).
    3. Nor does this simple concept have anything to do with literary style, this is just simple logic. Iltifat is only in regards to when Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) speaks of Himself in third person.
    4. I know what you mean but it is wrong and I'm explaining to you how it is wrong.
    5. It does not need "I" to mean "I" if "I" is meant by means of another pronoun the audience is familiar with, and all of the readers and listeners there and then understood that, otherwise every Arab opponent of Islam would've been complaining about it for over a millennium rather than some of them deeming it "magical poetry" or "sorcery" instead of "nonsense".
    6. 64-65 are an answer to a question, and yes it makes sense to me.
    In 63 it concludes the description of "the Garden", the description unfolds into a beginning in 60 where it began contrasting the repenting people with those of them who don't repent in 59 who are stated to succeed the prophets who precede them in 58 where the example of certain prophets is concluded, and up from there the prophets in the example are listed.
    While 64-65 first answer the question the prophet(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) posed, ending in the mention of the Lord(subhanahu wa ta'aala), and putting emphasis on Him and reminding of Him in verse 65.

    This book was revealed over the course of more than 20 years, the verses you're talking about have pauses of several days between them, and in those several days a question was asked, then after the course of those days, the answer came.
    Last edited by Thunderstorm; 15-08-16, 10:08 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mohamed Mifxal
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Is it the royal "we" in this verse?

    And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:64]
    if you are still confused, then it's best to speak with a scholar.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mohamed Mifxal
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Is it the royal "we" in this verse?

    And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:64]
    this was angel Jibril speaking about angels, but this isn't not a verse created by angels they are words of Allah as he revealed

    Leave a comment:


  • shabbir80
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
    its the royal "we". Allah is lord of the creation hence most befittingly address himself with royal we and not I.
    Is it the royal "we" in this verse?

    And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:64]

    Leave a comment:


  • Mohamed Mifxal
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    its the royal "we". Allah is lord of the creation hence most befittingly address himself with royal we and not I.

    Leave a comment:


  • shabbir80
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    First this happens: 19:63 - Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) is "We"
    Then this happens: [...]Messenger of Allah said to Jibril[...]
    Then this happens: 19:64 - The angels is "We"

    After the previous verse, which means focus has been switched even if you were to prove the presumption that the verses were consecutive within the time span of a few minutes or so.
    What the messenger of Allah said to Jibril is not anywhere in the Quran. Is that abrupt change of topic in the middle of another topic, the unique literary style of the Quran? I'm studying the Quran again chapter by chapter and finding this incoherent topic shifting confusing.

    Because if Your read the entire chapter and verses before 19:64 and after, you might see what I mean, unless the entire chapter is narrated from the point of view of angels as there is no "I" anywhere.

    But to be honest the very next verse 19:65 also seems like a continuation of the previous verse. 19:64 mentions the lord. 19:65 says "Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them" like showing the attributes of the lord mentioned in previous verse. Perhaps that is something in Arabic language but does that sentence make sense to you in English? "Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them - So worship him .. ", unless the context of the lord is established before that like in 19:64.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thunderstorm
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    In both verses? I'm sorry again what I'm trying to ask is:


    1. Who is "We" in verse 19:63 ? (we give an inheritance... )
    2. Who is "We" in verse 19:64 ? (and we descend not but ... )


    Thank you.
    First this happens: 19:63 - Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) is "We"
    Then this happens: [...]Messenger of Allah said to Jibril[...]
    Then this happens: 19:64 - The angels is "We"

    After the previous verse, which means focus has been switched even if you were to prove the presumption that the verses were consecutive within the time span of a few minutes or so.

    Leave a comment:


  • shabbir80
    replied
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    Jibril(alayhi salaam) is the speaker reading the Qur'an to Muhammad(salallahu alayhi wa sallam). Just like if I read your post aloud, it is not my statement, but I am the speaker.
    In both verses? I'm sorry again what I'm trying to ask is:


    1. Who is "We" in verse 19:63 ? (we give an inheritance... )
    2. Who is "We" in verse 19:64 ? (and we descend not but ... )


    Thank you.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X