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Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

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  • #16
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    @ Thunderstorm

    And how would you know that other verses after that are not part of that answer (without tafsir)?

    In the answer verse (i.e. 19:64) Allah is referred to as "your lord" and again in verse 19:68, "We" swear by "your lord". Allah swears by "your lord"?

    Again, In verse 16:69 it sounds like "We" is talking about third person singular "the most merciful".

    In 19:73, the term used is "Our verses" instead of "verses of your lord".

    In 19:85, "We" will gather the righteous to "the Most Merciful" as delegation (not to "us").

    In 19:94, "He" has enumerated them .. (Not "We").

    In 19:95, All of them are coming to "Him" on the day or reurrection (not to "Us").

    Two verses later, verse 19:97, again its "We"

    "We" and "him" are used repeatedly in the same chapter.


    Is there a case in the Quran where Allah says, Worship us instead of worship me or worship him or worship your lord? In pure monotheism scenarios and where assuming that the speakers are angels can lead to problems. I could not find any such case. for example verse 20:14, it's "I" and not "We":

    Indeed, "I" am Allah. There is no deity except "Me", so worship "Me" and establish prayer for "My" remembrance. [20:14]

    Is it possible to establish distinction without tafsir? And has scholars found any linguistic or theistic rule by which "I" and "We" are used in the Quran?
    we is used in Quran because muslims are the only people who insist on the most radical monothiesm ever!; just look up the nullifiers of Islam; any tainting of the 100% pure concept of monothiesm and a person is out!!!!, therefore muslims will have no problem understanding the 'we' as a royal we without any risk of polytheism at all

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    • #17
      Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

      Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
      @ Thunderstorm

      And how would you know that other verses after that are not part of that answer (without tafsir)?
      When you know the question, you use your eyeballs and brain to detect the answer and its scope in a text.
      How do you know of the question without tafsir?

      In the answer verse (i.e. 19:64) Allah is referred to as "your lord" and again in verse 19:68, "We" swear by "your lord". Allah swears by "your lord"?
      Firstly, where does it say "We swear by your lord"?
      Secondly, yes, third person iltifat. What is the problem? Is He not the Lord of Muhammad(salallahu alayhi wa sallam)?

      Again, In verse 16:69 it sounds like "We" is talking about third person singular "the most merciful".

      In 19:73, the term used is "Our verses" instead of "verses of your lord".

      In 19:85, "We" will gather the righteous to "the Most Merciful" as delegation (not to "us").

      In 19:94, "He" has enumerated them .. (Not "We").

      In 19:95, All of them are coming to "Him" on the day or reurrection (not to "Us").

      Two verses later, verse 19:97, again its "We"

      "We" and "him" are used repeatedly in the same chapter.
      So basically your issue is, "Did the author mean what he meant?". And my answer is "Yes.". Why would the author lie about the obvious? Or make so many simple mistakes? He didn't lie nor were they mistakes, and none of the worst critics of the Qur'an at the time complained about it - but it would've been the easiest thing to use to discredit the author regardless of their identity.
      This is because it is all syntactically legal with regards to the semantics in Semitic languages. Even in some of the western languages can you do this; I speak many, but only in English have I had this discussion.

      If you don't believe me when I tell you this, consider how likely it is that you discover something groundbreaking like this in a translation over a millennium later and everyone else missed it.
      Is there a case in the Quran where Allah says, Worship us instead of worship me or worship him or worship your lord?
      No.
      In pure monotheism scenarios and where assuming that the speakers are angels can lead to problems. I could not find any such case. for example verse 20:14, it's "I" and not "We":

      Indeed, "I" am Allah. There is no deity except "Me", so worship "Me" and establish prayer for "My" remembrance. [20:14]

      Is it possible to establish distinction without tafsir? And has scholars found any linguistic or theistic rule by which "I" and "We" are used in the Quran?
      You can discern most of the relevance of the content without tafsir, and most of the practical context, but you can't discern the whole context just like any other sequence of replies/messages over the course of several decades requires the whole context for you to know what it is all about, because it isn't a story and it is revealed at a point in time in a sequence relevant to history. Which means you do need to know the history behind it to understand it fully, but without knowing the history you can understand it to a certain degree in places where no history is needed.
      Last edited by Thunderstorm; 15-08-16, 05:31 PM.
      Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

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      • #18
        Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

        Originally posted by Thunderstorm View Post
        Firstly, where does it say "We swear by your lord"?
        verse 19:68 and I didn't write it as literal translation but the verse means it, it's "we" saying "by your Lord":
        So by your Lord, We will surely gather them and the devils; then We will bring them to be present around Hell upon their knees.

        I'll give you an example and perhaps you can help clear my confusion that how can that be an eloquent sentence?

        He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. [31:10]

        If "he" and "we" are both the same person in that single verse? Then why use two different pronouns there?
        Last edited by shabbir80; 15-08-16, 07:55 PM.

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        • #19
          Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

          Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
          verse 19:68 and I didn't write it as literal translation but the verse means it, it's "we" saying "by your Lord":
          So by your Lord, We will surely gather them and the devils; then We will bring them to be present around Hell upon their knees.

          I'll give you an example and perhaps you can help clear my confusion that how can that be an eloquent sentence?

          He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. [31:10]

          If "he" and "we" are both the same person in that single verse? Then why use two different pronouns there?
          Allah can swear by anything He likes, even Himself!!!

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          • #20
            Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

            Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
            verse 19:68 and I didn't write it as literal translation but the verse means it, it's "we" saying "by your Lord":
            So by your Lord, We will surely gather them and the devils; then We will bring them to be present around Hell upon their knees.

            I'll give you an example and perhaps you can help clear my confusion that how can that be an eloquent sentence?

            He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs. [31:10]

            If "he" and "we" are both the same person in that single verse? Then why use two different pronouns there?


            If you still have questions about pronouns, it's time to start learning Arabic.
            Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

            Comment

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