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Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

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  • Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    In the Quran the Allah is referred many times as first person singular (I), first person plural (we) and 3rd person singular (he).

    Is it possible that it is angels speaking and it is not magestic plural (we) for Allah? For example in Surah Maryam, the speaker always uses "we" and never used "I" once, and it become obvious in following verses why:

    Such is the Garden which We give as an inheritance to those of Our servants who guard against Evil.
    And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:63-64]


    Obviously "We" is not Allah that descends by the command of anyone? But there is no context of angels before in that chapter. Can we say that other verses in that chapter and probably rest of the Quran where God is referred to as "he" or "thy lord" it is angles speaking? If not why not?

    And in very first chapter of the Quran, it is not god saying: Show us the straight way!..

  • #2
    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    In the Quran the Allah is referred many times as first person singular (I), first person plural (we) and 3rd person singular (he).

    Is it possible that it is angels speaking and it is not magestic plural (we) for Allah? For example in Surah Maryam, the speaker always uses "we" and never used "I" once, and it become obvious in following verses why:

    Such is the Garden which We give as an inheritance to those of Our servants who guard against Evil.
    And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:63-64]


    Obviously "We" is not Allah that descends by the command of anyone? But there is no context of angels before in that chapter. Can we say that other verses in that chapter and probably rest of the Quran where God is referred to as "he" or "thy lord" it is angles speaking? If not why not?

    And in very first chapter of the Quran, it is not god saying: Show us the straight way!..
    It is from Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) only, the third-person style is called "iltifat".

    [...]Then why third person in the Quran? First, that's a part of Arabic style called "iltifat". For example, my mom used to say, "your mom didn't sleep yesterday, she needs a little rest" or "your mom loves you and she cares about you". She is talking about herself using third person maybe to remind me her valuable position in my heart. Sometimes, my manger says "if your manager asked to do something, give it a high priority". He is saying simply, remember I am your boss.


    When Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) uses iltifat for instance "He did such and such a thing", He implies that nobody else did and sort of indirectly asks "Who else would've done this?".

    And regarding the part about "And We descend not but by command of thy Lord":
    The answer is in the verse itself. Jibril(alayhi salaam) would not have come down to say that if Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) would not have told him to do that and say it.
    This is also confirmed in the tafsir of Ibn Kathir,
    [...](And we descend not except by the command of your Lord.) Al-Bukhari was alone in recording it and he related it with the Tafsir of this Ayah. Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, "Jibril was kept from visiting the Messenger of Allah, so he was disturbed and grieved because of this. Then, Jibril came to him and said, `O Muhammad,

    وَمَا نَتَنَزَّلُ إِلاَّ بِأَمْرِ رَبِّكَ

    (And we descend not except by the command of your Lord.)''' Allah said,

    لَهُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِينَا وَمَا خَلْفَنَا[...]


    Had Jibril(alahi salaam) been able to do so on his own accord, he would have come before rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) began to grieve and would not have said he needs "the command of your Lord".
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

      Originally posted by Thunderstorm View Post
      It is from Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) only, the third-person style is called "iltifat".



      When Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) uses iltifat for instance "He did such and such a thing", He implies that nobody else did and sort of indirectly asks "Who else would've done this?".

      And regarding the part about "And We descend not but by command of thy Lord":
      The answer is in the verse itself. Jibril(alayhi salaam) would not have come down to say that if Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) would not have told him to do that and say it.
      This is also confirmed in the tafsir of Ibn Kathir,


      Had Jibril(alahi salaam) been able to do so on his own accord, he would have come before rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) began to grieve and would not have said he needs "the command of your Lord".
      Can you tell me briefly who is the speaker in verse 19:63 and then in verse 19:64 ? Both verses are given below. If they are not from the same person why is there "And" ("wa") between them and looks like the continuation of the speech?

      Such is the Garden which We give as an inheritance to those of Our servants who guard against Evil. [19:63]
      And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:64]
      Last edited by shabbir80; 14-08-16, 04:59 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

        The amount of nonsense we get is endless,

        Nowhere in the Qur'an does it even suggest it could be from anyone other than Allah عز و جل,

        Yet we have absurd questions like the one in the op.
        http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

        "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

        – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

          Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
          Can you tell me briefly who is the speaker in verse 19:63 and then in verse 19:64 ? Both verses are given below. If they are not from the same person why is there "And" ("wa") between them and looks like the continuation of the speech?

          Such is the Garden which We give as an inheritance to those of Our servants who guard against Evil. [19:63]
          And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:64]

          Jibril(alayhi salaam) is the speaker reading the Qur'an to Muhammad(salallahu alayhi wa sallam). Just like if I read your post aloud, it is not my statement, but I am the speaker.

          The Angels do not descend, except by Allah's Command

          Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Messenger of Allah said to Jibril,

          «مَا يَمْنَعُكَ أَنْ تَزُورَنَا أَكْثَرَ مِمَّا تَزُورُنَا؟»

          (What prevents you from visiting us more than you do) Then this Ayah was revealed,

          وَمَا نَتَنَزَّلُ إِلاَّ بِأَمْرِ رَبِّكَ[...]
          Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

            Surah An-Nisa, Ayah 82:

            أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلَافًا كَثِيرًا

            Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions.



            سبحان الله
            http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

            "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

            – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

              Originally posted by Thunderstorm View Post
              Jibril(alayhi salaam) is the speaker reading the Qur'an to Muhammad(salallahu alayhi wa sallam). Just like if I read your post aloud, it is not my statement, but I am the speaker.
              In both verses? I'm sorry again what I'm trying to ask is:


              1. Who is "We" in verse 19:63 ? (we give an inheritance... )
              2. Who is "We" in verse 19:64 ? (and we descend not but ... )


              Thank you.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

                Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
                In both verses? I'm sorry again what I'm trying to ask is:


                1. Who is "We" in verse 19:63 ? (we give an inheritance... )
                2. Who is "We" in verse 19:64 ? (and we descend not but ... )


                Thank you.
                First this happens: 19:63 - Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) is "We"
                Then this happens: [...]Messenger of Allah said to Jibril[...]
                Then this happens: 19:64 - The angels is "We"

                After the previous verse, which means focus has been switched even if you were to prove the presumption that the verses were consecutive within the time span of a few minutes or so.
                Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

                  Originally posted by Thunderstorm View Post
                  First this happens: 19:63 - Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) is "We"
                  Then this happens: [...]Messenger of Allah said to Jibril[...]
                  Then this happens: 19:64 - The angels is "We"

                  After the previous verse, which means focus has been switched even if you were to prove the presumption that the verses were consecutive within the time span of a few minutes or so.
                  What the messenger of Allah said to Jibril is not anywhere in the Quran. Is that abrupt change of topic in the middle of another topic, the unique literary style of the Quran? I'm studying the Quran again chapter by chapter and finding this incoherent topic shifting confusing.

                  Because if Your read the entire chapter and verses before 19:64 and after, you might see what I mean, unless the entire chapter is narrated from the point of view of angels as there is no "I" anywhere.

                  But to be honest the very next verse 19:65 also seems like a continuation of the previous verse. 19:64 mentions the lord. 19:65 says "Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them" like showing the attributes of the lord mentioned in previous verse. Perhaps that is something in Arabic language but does that sentence make sense to you in English? "Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them - So worship him .. ", unless the context of the lord is established before that like in 19:64.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

                    its the royal "we". Allah is lord of the creation hence most befittingly address himself with royal we and not I.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

                      Originally posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
                      its the royal "we". Allah is lord of the creation hence most befittingly address himself with royal we and not I.
                      Is it the royal "we" in this verse?

                      And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:64]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

                        Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
                        Is it the royal "we" in this verse?

                        And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:64]
                        this was angel Jibril speaking about angels, but this isn't not a verse created by angels they are words of Allah as he revealed

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

                          Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
                          Is it the royal "we" in this verse?

                          And We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- [19:64]
                          if you are still confused, then it's best to speak with a scholar.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

                            Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
                            What the messenger of Allah said to Jibril is not anywhere in the Quran. Is that abrupt change of topic in the middle of another topic, the unique literary style of the Quran? I'm studying the Quran again chapter by chapter and finding this incoherent topic shifting confusing.

                            Because if Your read the entire chapter and verses before 19:64 and after, you might see what I mean, unless the entire chapter is narrated from the point of view of angels as there is no "I" anywhere.

                            But to be honest the very next verse 19:65 also seems like a continuation of the previous verse. 19:64 mentions the lord. 19:65 says "Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them" like showing the attributes of the lord mentioned in previous verse. Perhaps that is something in Arabic language but does that sentence make sense to you in English? "Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them - So worship him .. ", unless the context of the lord is established before that like in 19:64.
                            If it is confusing, it is because there's a larger context to it. Like for example in 9:36, it says:
                            :start:
                            The number of months in the sight of God is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that God is with those who restrain themselves.
                            and in 37 it continues,
                            Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by God and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But God guideth not those who reject Faith.
                            But 35 and 38 have nothing to do with it.
                            In the tafsir(exegesis) of Ala Maududi, it is explained:
                            [...]This has been mentioned to refute the practice of nasi (v. 37) whereby the pagan Arabs increased the number of the months of a year to 13 or 14 to enable them to interpose in the calendar the forbidden month which had been made lawful by them. (For fuller explanation see E.N. 37).[...]
                            i.e. a situation arose where this was relevant, and so a relevant verse was revealed to address it. It would not make sense if people are at a stalemate about the calendar or have some questions about it, and a revelation comes to tell them about how volcanoes are formed or describing Paradise or something.
                            We keep the commentaries, exegeses, eye-witness reports, reports of incidents/history, biographies, poetry etc. separate from the words of Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala), i.e. the Qur'an, which is why we can now still say that it is 100% the words of Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala).

                            1. Hence the Qur'an would not be the Qur'an if the words of the prophet(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) were in it.
                            2. Simply finishing one topic and moving on to the next is not "abrupt change of topic in the middle of another topic". A question was asked, and the answer came in the form of 19:64-65 - end of topic. And 63 was the end of the previous topic("Such is the Garden..." signalling that it is the end of the description of the Garden that was begun during verse 60).
                            3. Nor does this simple concept have anything to do with literary style, this is just simple logic. Iltifat is only in regards to when Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) speaks of Himself in third person.
                            4. I know what you mean but it is wrong and I'm explaining to you how it is wrong.
                            5. It does not need "I" to mean "I" if "I" is meant by means of another pronoun the audience is familiar with, and all of the readers and listeners there and then understood that, otherwise every Arab opponent of Islam would've been complaining about it for over a millennium rather than some of them deeming it "magical poetry" or "sorcery" instead of "nonsense".
                            6. 64-65 are an answer to a question, and yes it makes sense to me.
                            In 63 it concludes the description of "the Garden", the description unfolds into a beginning in 60 where it began contrasting the repenting people with those of them who don't repent in 59 who are stated to succeed the prophets who precede them in 58 where the example of certain prophets is concluded, and up from there the prophets in the example are listed.
                            While 64-65 first answer the question the prophet(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) posed, ending in the mention of the Lord(subhanahu wa ta'aala), and putting emphasis on Him and reminding of Him in verse 65.

                            This book was revealed over the course of more than 20 years, the verses you're talking about have pauses of several days between them, and in those several days a question was asked, then after the course of those days, the answer came.
                            Last edited by Thunderstorm; 15-08-16, 10:08 AM.
                            Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Is Quran from Allah or Angels or both? (as speaker)

                              @ Thunderstorm

                              And how would you know that other verses after that are not part of that answer (without tafsir)?

                              In the answer verse (i.e. 19:64) Allah is referred to as "your lord" and again in verse 19:68, "We" swear by "your lord". Allah swears by "your lord"?

                              Again, In verse 16:69 it sounds like "We" is talking about third person singular "the most merciful".

                              In 19:73, the term used is "Our verses" instead of "verses of your lord".

                              In 19:85, "We" will gather the righteous to "the Most Merciful" as delegation (not to "us").

                              In 19:94, "He" has enumerated them .. (Not "We").

                              In 19:95, All of them are coming to "Him" on the day or reurrection (not to "Us").

                              Two verses later, verse 19:97, again its "We"

                              "We" and "him" are used repeatedly in the same chapter.


                              Is there a case in the Quran where Allah says, Worship us instead of worship me or worship him or worship your lord? In pure monotheism scenarios and where assuming that the speakers are angels can lead to problems. I could not find any such case. for example verse 20:14, it's "I" and not "We":

                              Indeed, "I" am Allah. There is no deity except "Me", so worship "Me" and establish prayer for "My" remembrance. [20:14]

                              Is it possible to establish distinction without tafsir? And has scholars found any linguistic or theistic rule by which "I" and "We" are used in the Quran?
                              Last edited by shabbir80; 15-08-16, 02:27 PM.

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