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At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

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  • #46
    Re: At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

    Originally posted by savo234 View Post
    I think you are not understanding my argument and Sh's fatwa. Shaykh gave a fatwa against deciding marriage of a girl who did not hit puberty yet. Which is fine.

    However, no one is against marriage and its consummation after puberty.... Do you have a problem with that ?

    If not then you shuld not have prblem with consummation age of Aisha's(ra) marriage which was after puberty. Only that he decision was made by Abu Bakr(ra) before that age. Which is something not important. Sh Ibn Uthaymin wrote about that...

    I only disagreed with your link trying to increase Aisha's(ra) age. Thats all. I dont disagree with Sh's fatwa...
    Actually Shaykh Uthaymeen's fatwa on Islamqa - https://islamqa.info/en/178318 - says that the father does not have the right to arrange marriage for a girl under puberty.

    On top of that, he said in the above link, that a girl over puberty should give consent.

    Thats what I was referring to.

    Anyways, If the marriage is consensual and the guardians agree then I don't really have the right to say they can't consummate.
    Abu Malik at-Ash'ari reported:

    The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Cleanliness is half of faith

    and al-Hamdu Lillah (all praise and gratitude is for Allah alone) fills the scale, and Subhan Allah (Glory be to Allah)

    and al-Hamdu Lillah fill up what is between the heavens and the earth, and prayer is a light,

    and charity is proof (of one's faith)

    and endurance is a brightness and the Holy Qur'an is a proof on your behalf or against you.

    All men go out early in the morning and sell themselves, thereby setting themselves free or destroying themselves.



    حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ مَنْصُورٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَبَّانُ بْنُ هِلاَلٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبَانٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، أَنَّ زَيْدًا، حَدَّثَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلاَّمٍ حَدَّثَهُ عَنْ أَبِي مَالِكٍ الأَشْعَرِيِّ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ الطُّهُورُ شَطْرُ الإِيمَانِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلأُ الْمِيزَانَ ‏.‏ وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلآنِ - أَوْ تَمْلأُ - مَا بَيْنَ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَالصَّلاَةُ نُورٌ وَالصَّدَقَةُ بُرْهَانٌ وَالصَّبْرُ ضِيَاءٌ وَالْقُرْآنُ حُجَّةٌ لَكَ أَوْ عَلَيْكَ كُلُّ النَّاسِ يَغْدُو فَبَائِعٌ نَفْسَهُ فَمُعْتِقُهَا أَوْ مُوبِقُهَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

    Reference : Sahih Muslim 223
    In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 1
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 2, Hadith 432
    (deprecated numbering scheme)

    أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

    Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


    Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

      Originally posted by Stoic Believer View Post
      It was not an insult against you, I was referring to what Gnome's perception of "moral wisdom" is.
      Oh I'm sorry then
      Abu Malik at-Ash'ari reported:

      The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Cleanliness is half of faith

      and al-Hamdu Lillah (all praise and gratitude is for Allah alone) fills the scale, and Subhan Allah (Glory be to Allah)

      and al-Hamdu Lillah fill up what is between the heavens and the earth, and prayer is a light,

      and charity is proof (of one's faith)

      and endurance is a brightness and the Holy Qur'an is a proof on your behalf or against you.

      All men go out early in the morning and sell themselves, thereby setting themselves free or destroying themselves.



      حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ مَنْصُورٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَبَّانُ بْنُ هِلاَلٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبَانٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، أَنَّ زَيْدًا، حَدَّثَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلاَّمٍ حَدَّثَهُ عَنْ أَبِي مَالِكٍ الأَشْعَرِيِّ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ الطُّهُورُ شَطْرُ الإِيمَانِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلأُ الْمِيزَانَ ‏.‏ وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلآنِ - أَوْ تَمْلأُ - مَا بَيْنَ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَالصَّلاَةُ نُورٌ وَالصَّدَقَةُ بُرْهَانٌ وَالصَّبْرُ ضِيَاءٌ وَالْقُرْآنُ حُجَّةٌ لَكَ أَوْ عَلَيْكَ كُلُّ النَّاسِ يَغْدُو فَبَائِعٌ نَفْسَهُ فَمُعْتِقُهَا أَوْ مُوبِقُهَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

      Reference : Sahih Muslim 223
      In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 1
      USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 2, Hadith 432
      (deprecated numbering scheme)

      أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

      Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


      Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

        Originally posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
        Actually Shaykh Uthaymeen's fatwa on Islamqa - https://islamqa.info/en/178318 - says that the father does not have the right to arrange marriage for a girl under puberty.

        On top of that, he said in the above link, that a girl over puberty should give consent.

        Thats what I was referring to.

        Anyways, If the marriage is consensual and the guardians agree then I don't really have the right to say they can't consummate.
        Thats fair enough. I was just contesting you earlier post . This one


        ""I've read this, its quite interesting and debates that she (Aisha radiAllahu anha) was another age""

        Which is totally not right.. Thats all.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

          Originally posted by savo234 View Post
          Thats fair enough. I was just contesting you earlier post . This one


          ""I've read this, its quite interesting and debates that she (Aisha radiAllahu anha) was another age""

          Which is totally not right.. Thats all.
          Well, I found the post I linked informative and well researched at the time. I don't really understand the overall point your making to be honest.
          Abu Malik at-Ash'ari reported:

          The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Cleanliness is half of faith

          and al-Hamdu Lillah (all praise and gratitude is for Allah alone) fills the scale, and Subhan Allah (Glory be to Allah)

          and al-Hamdu Lillah fill up what is between the heavens and the earth, and prayer is a light,

          and charity is proof (of one's faith)

          and endurance is a brightness and the Holy Qur'an is a proof on your behalf or against you.

          All men go out early in the morning and sell themselves, thereby setting themselves free or destroying themselves.



          حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ مَنْصُورٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَبَّانُ بْنُ هِلاَلٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبَانٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، أَنَّ زَيْدًا، حَدَّثَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلاَّمٍ حَدَّثَهُ عَنْ أَبِي مَالِكٍ الأَشْعَرِيِّ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ الطُّهُورُ شَطْرُ الإِيمَانِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلأُ الْمِيزَانَ ‏.‏ وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلآنِ - أَوْ تَمْلأُ - مَا بَيْنَ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَالصَّلاَةُ نُورٌ وَالصَّدَقَةُ بُرْهَانٌ وَالصَّبْرُ ضِيَاءٌ وَالْقُرْآنُ حُجَّةٌ لَكَ أَوْ عَلَيْكَ كُلُّ النَّاسِ يَغْدُو فَبَائِعٌ نَفْسَهُ فَمُعْتِقُهَا أَوْ مُوبِقُهَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

          Reference : Sahih Muslim 223
          In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 1
          USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 2, Hadith 432
          (deprecated numbering scheme)

          أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

          Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


          Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

            :start:

            It is unclear, because the ahadith are contradictory on the matter, or to phrase it even more correctly; all of the sahih ahadith I've found don't add up mathematically. I know this because I wrote all the facts down that I could find, several days ago, because I found something that contradicted the widely held narrative.
            I realize that the lunar vs. gregorian calendar isn't 100% identical in the way they count time, but the offset is not so big that we can't say 1 AH was not somewhere around 621-623 CE, so I chose to note things down in CE to make it less confusing.

            The sahih ahadith that I've found were these:
            (I'm using the English translation indexing)
            Legend:
            m. = married at age ---
            l. = lived with rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) for --- years
            n. = narrator ---
            c. = consummated at age ---

            Sunan An-Nasai, Vol.4, Book 26, Hadith 3259: m.9 y.o., l. 9 years, n. Abu Ubaidah(radiallahu anhu)(from Aisha(radiallahu anha)) - Graded sahih by Darussalaam.
            Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol.3, Book 9, Hadith 1877: m.7 y.o., c. 9 y.o., l. until age 18, n. Abdullah(radiallahu anhu) - Graded sahih by Darussalaam.
            Sunan An-Nasai, Vol.4, Book 26, Hadith 3257: m.6 y.o., c. 9 y.o., n. Aisha(radiallahu anha) - Graded sahih by Darussalaam.
            Sunan Abi Dawud, Book 11, Hadith 2116: m.6-7 y.o., c. 9 y.o., n. Aisha(radiallahu anha) - Graded sahih by Albaani
            Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.7, Book 62, Hadith 88: m.6 y.o., c.9 y.o., l. 9 years, n. Urwa(radiallahu anhu)
            Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.7, Book 62, Hadith 64: m.6 y.o., c.9 y.o., l. 9 years, n. Aisha(radiallahu anha)
            *Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.5, Book 58, Hadith 236: m.6 y.o., c.9 y.o., l. 9 years, n. Hisham's father(radiallahu anhu)
            Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.7, Book 62, Hadith 65: m.6 y.o., c.9 y.o., l. 9 years, n. Aisha(radiallahu anha)
            Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Hadith 3311: m.7 y.o., (c.9 y.o.?,) l. until age 18, n. Aisha(radiallahu anha)
            Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Hadith 3311(b, slight variation): m.6 y.o., (c.9 y.o.?,) l. until age 18, n. Aisha(radiallahu anha)
            Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol.3, Book 9, Hadith 1876: m.6 y.o., (c.9 y.o.?,) n. Aisha(radiallahu anha) - Graded sahih by Darussalaam
            Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Hadith 3309: m.6 y.o., (c.9 y.o.?,) n. Aisha(radiallahu anha)

            * = "[...]Khadija died three years before the prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha[...]"
            (c.9 y.o.?,) = These say that she basically moved in with rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) at age 9, not that it was consummated at age 9

            Then;
            Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.8, Book 73, Hadith 33
            Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.5, Book 58, Hadith 165
            Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Hadith 5971

            In these three ahadith, Aisha(radiallahu anha) narrates herself that Khadija(radiallahu anha) died 3 years before rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) married Aisha(radiallahu anha).

            Also notable is the fact that Ibn Kathir(rahimahullah) wrote in Al-Bidayah Wa An-Nihayah, Vol.8, p.346:
            "Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha."

            While Al-Dhahabi(rahimahullah) wrote in Siyar A'lam Al-Nubalaa, Vol. 2 that Asma was 13 or 19 years older than Aisha.(I was unable to find a copy of this particular page though)

            The rift between 6 and 7 can be explained by the lunar calendar's differences towards the gregorian calendar, this reasonably reconciles those differing ahadith.
            I do not know any concrete explanation as to why Abu Ubaidah(radiallahu anhu) said she married when 9. I have a theory as to why, I'll get to it at the end.




            Now in order to calculate this in some meaningful way, there are a few premises to accept first:
            The widely held estimate that rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) passed away in 632 CE
            The widely held estimate that Asma bint Abi Bakr(radiallahu anha) was born in 595 CE and passed away in 692 CE
            The widely held estimate that Khadija(radiallahu anha) passed away in 620 CE
            The widely held estimate that the hijra began in 622 CE

            The ones under contention however are:
            The widely held estimate that Aisha(radiallahu anha) was born 613/614 CE
            The widely held estimate that Aisha(radiallahu anha) married in 619 CE

            Of the sources I've found and listed, all of them either say that she lived with rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) for 9 years, or until she was 18(which is 9 years from age 9), and the others don't contradict the amount of years she lived with him, so I took that as a good sign that her living with him for 9 years is a fact.

            Therefore, on that basis, if he passed away in 632, and they lived together for 9 years, it means that the consummation could not have been earlier than 623 CE and the marriage could not have been later than that(because otherwise it would be adultery).

            Abu Ubaidah's estimate would fit in with the fact that they lived 9 years together, and the contention that she was 18 when rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) passed away, and the widely held estimate that she was born on 613/614 CE, but this would mean that she married when she was 9, and not 6.

            Hisham's father's estimate says that rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) departed to Medina 3 years after 620 CE when Khadija(radiallahu anha) died, so in 622/623(which is consistent with when the hijra is expected to have taken place, and we know that rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) was the last to move to Medina, so 623 is not implausible, and that he then waited for another 2 years, and then he married Aisha(radiallahu anha). This would place the marriage in 625 CE, and is inconsistent with the consummation taking place in 623 CE, this could be for a reason I'll elaborate on further down. This would have meant that she did not live with him for 9 years, or he passed away later than 632 CE, which monks in a church in Sinai and certain participants in the battle of Yarmouk have implied to have been the case, but this doesn't have strong evidence to back it up from what I've found so it's only speculation.
            If this hadith is to be consistent with the majority, then all dates have to be moved forward a few years.

            If Ibn Kathir is correct in that Asma was 10 years older than Aisha, then Aisha was born on 605 CE, and if the consummation was in 622/623, she was approximately 17-18 years old at the time, which is a little improbable considering she recalls having been on a swing with a friend when she was called in to move in with her husband, but you never know, an adult can also be on a swing and with a friend, especially back then when there was no facebook or myspace for girls to busy themselves with during breaks from chores and work. Anyhow, this estimate would also mean that she was 27 when rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) passed away.

            If Al-Dhahabi is correct, that Asma was 13 or 19 years older than Aisha, then Aisha was born on either 608 CE or 614 CE. In the first case, if the consummation was in 623 CE, then she was 15 years old at the time, otherwise she was 9 at the time.


            Now, considering the three ahadith where Aisha(radiallahu anha) herself says that she married rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) 3 years after the passing of Khadija(radiallahu anha), this would put the marriage in 620 CE. In that case, it would mean that;
            if she was born in 605 CE, she was 15 at the time of the marriage,
            if she was born in 608 CE, she was 12 at the time of the marriage,
            if she was born in 614 CE, she was 6 at the time of the marriage.



            As you can see, it all depends on where you begin to calculate from, where you will end up.



            My theory is that because the mushrikeen would tamper with the calendar for their own gain(which was reprimanded by Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) in the Qur'an,
            [9:36] The number of months in the sight of God is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that God is with those who restrain themselves.
            [9:37] Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by God and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But God guideth not those who reject Faith.
            [...Al-Bukhari and Muslim collected this Hadith. In a small book collected by Shaykh `Alam ad-Din As-Sakhawi, entitled, Al-Mashhur fi Asma' Al-Ayam wash-Shuhur, he mentioned that Muharram is so named because it is a sacred month. To me, it was so named to emphasize its sacredness. This is because the Arabs would switch it around. One year they would say it was a sacred month, the following year they would say that it was not. The author said, "...and Safar is so named because they used to leave their homes during that month for fighting and traveling. When saying `Safir' a place, it means to leave it... Rabi` Al-Awwal is called that because they used to do Irtiba` in it, that is to maintain one's property... and Rabi` Al-Akhir, was so named for the same reasons. Jumada is called that because the water would dry up (Jamud) then....They say Jumada Al-Uwla and Al-Awwal, or Jumada Al-Akhar or Al-Akhirah. Rajab comes from Tarjib, meaning to honor. Sha`ban because the tribes would separate and return to their homes. Ramadan was so named because of the severity of the Ramda' - that is - the heat, and they say that the branch Ramadat when it is thirsty...And the saying that it is a Name of Allah is a mistake, for there is no proof or support for that...[...]

            )
            it is possible that Abu Ubaidah(radiallahu anhu), Ibn Kathir(rahimahullah), Al-Dhahabi(rahimahullah), Hisham's father(rahimahullah) and Aisha(radiallahu anha) herself knew that the track of years up to a certain point wasn't completely trustworthy, and this could explain why they sometimes moved the year about. We wouldn't expect a child below a certain age to be keeping track of the calendar but past a certain age counting is more consistent with children, which could explain why nobody contradicts the suggestion that she lived with rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) for 9 years, and that she says that herself in every record - well, in Medina, since there were many muslims gathered together, there weren't enough mushrikeen to confuse them nor little children in those regards, so this seems plausible to me.
            Also it is strange that the age of consummation was mentioned in Aisha's context - if it was important to point out that consummation is forbidden until the age of 9, then rasulallah(salallahu alayhi wa sallam) could just have said what age is appropriate for it, without Aisha allegedly disclosing in the ahadith when she had intercourse for the first time. Others didn't do this from what I know, because it was irrelevant, and one explanation as to why it was relevant in her case is because the shiia and others accused her of adultery and not having been a virgin.
            One thing that's for sure though; knowing this is not condusive to us in our everyday lives. People who press the issue outside of legislation are doing so for the specific purpose to try and scare people, they would never mention any of these ahadith and sources that mention other ages.

            For us it is not a big problem that ahadith contradict one another, because they're not infallible, and we continuously(or rather our scholars, whereas we are supposed to accept their scholarly work) weed out ones that are not up to par. This is because ahadith are reported by humans and have chains of narration - only the Qur'an is infallible and unquestionable.
            Last edited by Thunderstorm; 01-07-17, 01:20 AM.
            Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

              Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
              You know the Prophet saw was called many things by his enemies but never a paedophile, have you wondered why?

              It simply wasnt an issue, but also Islam bought rights for women that they never had. The Prophet saw every action is guidance. Teh marriage of Aaisha ra was so too.

              Note all teh Prophet saw wives were mature when married to Him saw, often widows and divorcees. Aisha ra was the youngest and within that marriage there was something that was meant as a lesson

              So jews and christians had n limitations and were allowing intercourse with babies. Islam said no only when a woman is baaligh ie has reached puberty

              Today the world has set man made age groups, in europe its 12 - 14 in Uk its 16 etc. Allah swt has said its when reaching puberty. That may be 9 it may be 12 it maybe 14. BUT its not about birth day its about body function
              a pedo is a man who only lusts after little girls and after they age a few years, he searches for another little girl

              this was not the Prophet, his first wife was older than him, his second wife was Sauda, his third wife was aisha, married at 6, consummated at 9, and his other wives were older

              so he clearly was not a pedo, anyone who says that he was either is ignorant of what a pedo is, or has evil intent on our Prophet
              .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
              نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
              دولة الإسلامية باقية





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              • #52
                Re: At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLDDCRkVpU0
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgRGtceDFVo

                Thorough look at it. Interesting for what its worth.
                "The Jew cries out as he strikes you."

                Remove matzo

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                • #53
                  Re: At What Age Did Aisha(ra) consumate marriage with Prophet(saw)?

                  Anytime you see a person have a problem with this issue you know he has serious fundamental issues in the ability to submit and put aside his beliefs which will lead to a lot of problems down the road.

                  The issue is clear cut as day. However, when you want to play the "soft" image of Islaam, escape the ridicule of the kaafirs, or be able to keep them as friends in your life, you are forced to find excuses.

                  Then there are those who have personal "morals." Anytime something goes against those "morals" they need explanations and alternatives.

                  Just remember the following Verses of the Qur'aan and ask yourself how true of a Muslim you really are if you cannot accept issues like the one presented in this thread. And remember, Allaah does not need you. Turn away and He will replace you with those better than you.



                  It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.

                  [Qur'aan 33:36]


                  But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.

                  [Qur'aan 4:65]


                  Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.

                  [Qur'aan 47:38]
                  Watch those eyes

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