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Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

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  • Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

    I was debating with an atheist on fb and he sent me this video and asked some questions:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVwizsojd1Y

    It's about the verse 18:86

    Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

    I know it has been discussed here many times but this time I'm looking for the refutations of following questions.


    Mistaken perspective

    It's usually refuted as it is narrated how Zul-Qarnain perceived it. It looked to him as if the sun was setting in a spring of muddy water. But the Quran claims to be a clear and easy to understand book. Why would it create confusion here. Why would Quran even include his mistaken perspective. The word 'wajada' appeard many times in the Quran and nowhere it is used for mistaken perspective. It is used twice in the same verse but it doesn't mean mistaken perspective second time.


    Reaching the time or the place of sunset?

    The word "balagha" always used in the Quran for reaching the place not time.

    Size of the Muddy Water Spring

    The sun setting in an ocean over the horizon might look like as if it is going inside it but no spring can be that big to give that impression. There are different words in Arabic for ocean, sea, lake and river. There is no spring in the world large enough that it would appear to stretch all the way to the horizon. The biggest spring is in Newzealand and it is not in the west. I personally thinkk the verse is about Morocco as it is called Al-Maghrib (the weat) in Arabic.

    Sun setting in a Spring of warm water in Hadith

    There is a sahih/authentic hadith where Muhammad (saw) states that the Sun sets in a spring of warm water:

    I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (saw) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).
    http://www.sunnah.com/abudawud/32/34

    There is another Hadith where the sun prostates under the throne of Allah asking permission to rise again.
    http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/1/306


    What earlier Muslims thought?

    Al-Tabari wrote in his book The History of al-Tabari, volume 1, General Introduction and From the creation to the flood (Quoting Abdullah ibn Abbas (ra)):

    The he said: For the sun and the moon, He created easts and wests (positions to rise and set) on the two sides of the earth and the two rims of heaven, 180 springs in the west of black clay - this is (meant by) God's word: "He found it setting in a muddy spring," meaning by "muddy (hami'ah) black clay-- and 180 springs in the east likewise of black clay, bubbling and boiling like a pot when it boils furiously. He continued. Every day and night the sun has a new place where it rises and a new place where it sets. The interval between them from beginning to end is longest for the day in summer and shortest in winter...

    The video gives references from 14 tafsirs of Quran that says that sun sets in the water.

    From Bible

    There is a verse in the Bible: The sun rises and the sun sets and hurries back to where it rises.



    Or the sun actually sets in muddy water and we have been lied to?
    Last edited by Mujahid4ever; 22-11-15, 09:10 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

    No it doesn't sets in muddy water. The verses talks about the expression of zul'qarnian about what he saw. HE FOUND IT!!!! use common sense not stupidity.

    ALLAH knows the best


    Don't debate with people who have 0 knowledge about the QURAN other than their cherry picking.
    Last edited by obaid_m; 22-11-15, 10:11 AM.
    Quran 45:23-24

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

      Originally posted by obaid_m View Post
      No it doesn't sets in muddy water. The verses talks about the expression of zul'qarnian about what he saw. HE FOUND IT!!!! use common sense not stupidity.

      ALLAH knows the best


      Don't debate with people who have 0 knowledge about the QURAN other than their cherry picking.
      Did you watch the video or read the full post? I was expecting a good refutation not a plain denial.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

        Asalam alaikum
        Originally posted by Mujahid4ever View Post
        Quran claims to be a clear and easy to understand book.
        Revise 3:7 http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=88383

        Many points together with AbuDawud hadith are covered here: http://comparativreligion.blogspot.c...ts-in-mud.html

        On prostration: http://comparativreligion.blogspot.c...tes-under.html

        Earlier muslim understanding and how the word wajada=found are used in other ayats are irrelevant.
        Muslims Search Engine !
        And those who disbelieved will then say, " Our Lord, show us those who misled us of the jinn and mankind ,so we may put them under our feet that they will be among the lowest."

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

          Man, what are you saying ! how can you say that sun sets in a muddy spring !? this is just a description.

          The verse explicitly is saying that Zulqarnayn reached to west so that :

          """until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it as if it was setting in a muddy spring, and nearby he found a nation. 'Zulqarnayn, ' we said, 'you must either punish them or show them kindness. Quran (18:86)"""

          These verses of Quran are revealed because of question of Jews from Muhammad PBUH. According to Torah, we can say that Zulqarnayn may be Cyrus. Because the word Zulqarnayn is used in Torah for the kings of Medans and Persians according to revelations of Daniel (AS), but only Cyrus is very important and respected for Jews. It is possible that Jews wanted to test Muhammad PBUH by asking an indirect question about Cyrus which is hero or some sort of Messiah for Jews.

          If we assume that Zulqarnayn is Cyrus then we may say that the " muddy spring " can be the description of the tiny gulf like coasts of Aegean Sea at sunset, since Cyrus had several wars and he reached coasts of black sea or Aegean Sea in his first attack which was towards the west.

          Allah knows the best.
          Last edited by ALAS; 22-11-15, 03:46 PM.
          Note: I am a shia.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

            Originally posted by ALAS View Post
            Man, what are you saying ! how can you say that sun sets in a muddy spring !? this is just a description.

            The verse explicitly is saying that Zulqarnayn reached to west so that :

            """until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it as if it was setting in a muddy spring, and nearby he found a nation. 'Zulqarnayn, ' we said, 'you must either punish them or show them kindness. Quran (18:86)"""

            These verses of Quran are revealed because of question of Jews from Muhammad PBUH. According to Torah, we can say that Zulqarnayn may be Cyrus. Because the word Zulqarnayn is used in Torah for the kings of Medans and Persians according to revelations of Daniel (AS), but only Cyrus is very important and respected for Jews. It is possible that Jews wanted to test Muhammad PBUH by asking an indirect question about Cyrus which is hero or some sort of Messiah for Jews.

            If we assume that Zulqarnayn is Cyrus then we may say that the " muddy spring " can be the description of the tiny gulf like coasts of Aegean Sea at sunset, since Cyrus had several wars and he reached coasts of black sea or Aegean Sea in his first attack which was towards the west.

            Allah knows the best.

            You think Quran is using the word "عين" (spring and not even lake or river) for a sea when there are words in Arabic for Sea, River and Lake? What was the biggest spring of water you have seen?

            Btw black sea is not black in color or muddy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

              Originally posted by Mujahid4ever View Post
              You think Quran is using the word "عين" (spring and not even lake or river) for a sea when there are words in Arabic for Sea, River and Lake? What was the biggest spring of water you have seen?

              Btw black sea is not black in color or muddy.
              Of course the usage of words are very adequate in Quran. We do not know anything about these odd verses exactly, if because of other evidences we assume that Jews meant Cyrus by Zulqarnayn, then that sentence can be just a description for what Zulqarnayn saw in the land which is nowadays Turkey near coasts of Aegean Sea.

              These verses are very complicated, you can not be in seek of a " muddy spring " without knowing who Zulqarnayn can be and you can not be in seek of Zulqarnayn without knowing what can be described as a " dark muddy spring at sunset in west" or what other signs can be.

              At least for sure we can say that Quran never says that sun sets in a muddy spring and Rasulullah PBUH also did not mean that sun sets in a lake or something. These are descriptions. However still some errors may happen even in Sahih hadithes unintentionally. When they say a hadith is Sahih they mean the narrators are reliable, but the narrators are not infallible.
              Last edited by ALAS; 22-11-15, 05:26 PM.
              Note: I am a shia.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

                Originally posted by Mujahid4ever View Post
                You think Quran is using the word "عين" (spring and not even lake or river) for a sea when there are words in Arabic for Sea, River and Lake? What was the biggest spring of water you have seen?

                Btw black sea is not black in color or muddy.
                http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=87646 )

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

                  Originally posted by SofiaG View Post
                  As regards the subject of the question, the Ayah (verse) is from the story of the just king Dhul-Qarnain. The interpretation of “the sun setting in a spring of black muddy water”, in the books of Tafseer is the following: Dhul-Qarnain went towards the direction of the West until he reached the farthest place in the West. There he found as if the sun was setting in a black muddy water. If a person among ourselves stands at the shore (sea-side) at sun set, he will see the sun as if it is falling into the sea, or setting into the sea.
                  But the reality is otherwise, when the sun sets in one place, it is still rising on another place
                  Therefore, what is meant by the verse “he found the sun setting in a muddy water” means when someone looks at it, that is what he/she would think and see.
                  Perhaps, Dhul-Qarnain arrived to a place where a river in deluge meets with the sea. The water of the river may contain mud, and when the sun sets, it would appear to a person looking at it as if it sets in a muddy water.
                  ( http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=87646 )
                  But the Quran doesn't say it appeared as if it were setting in muddy waters. It says he found it setting in the water and not that is what he thinks happened or seemed to happen or gave that appearance. Back then a scientific question was asked and the scientific answer was received. The Quran is clear on its own, and the Quran even states it is. That means the Quran doesn't and shouldn't need someone to explain what Allah said or meant. With that being said, another question comes to mind: does the sun ask Allah for permission to rise or is it something that God put into motion to happen on its own?
                  Love God and love others

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

                    err... the sun doesn't set period.
                    Allah sent down his tranquillity upon him and supported him with angels you did not see and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowest, while the word of Allah - that is the highest. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

                      Its a way of speaking, not literal.
                      Its just how it appears.
                      Whoever says that it is literal then he is a disbeliever, he is a disbeliever and he is a kaafir.

                      Because in Quran Allah says:

                      And the Sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. And We have decreed set phases for the Moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe. It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Surah Ya Sin, 38-40)


                      When Sun sets down it looks like it goes down inside ocean/sea, thats the same case with the mudd.
                      But whoever says it happens really like that: sun goes literally inside the ocean. Then he is insane! And a kaafir.


                      He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? ( Surat az-Zumar, 5)
                      Last edited by ForeverMonotheist1; 23-11-15, 01:23 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

                        Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                        But the Quran doesn't say it appeared as if it were setting in muddy waters. It says he found it setting in the water and not that is what he thinks happened or seemed to happen or gave that appearance. Back then a scientific question was asked and the scientific answer was received. The Quran is clear on its own, and the Quran even states it is. That means the Quran doesn't and shouldn't need someone to explain what Allah said or meant. With that being said, another question comes to mind: does the sun ask Allah for permission to rise or is it something that God put into motion to happen on its own?
                        Funny when a christian ask about quranic scientific >.>

                        It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. 36:40
                        Quran 45:23-24

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

                          Originally posted by obaid_m View Post
                          Funny when a christian ask about quranic scientific >.>

                          It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. 36:40
                          Again this is not about the Bible; it is about questions and comments about Islam. Christians don't claim the Bible is proved to be scientifically accurate, but it can be defended the same way anyone wants to support what they want to believe. I could say for instance, the author meant they appeared to float in an orbit. But let's take it literally for what is states which is still more believable, IMO, then finding the sun setting in a muddy spring then asking Allah for permission to rise, and as for the rest of the verse you quoted, it is true that the sun doesn't overtake the moon or the night outstrip the day.

                          What was you point in derailing this thread?
                          Last edited by Iamsaved; 23-11-15, 01:41 AM.
                          Love God and love others

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

                            Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                            But the Quran doesn't say it appeared as if it were setting in muddy waters. It says he found it setting in the water and not that is what he thinks happened or seemed to happen or gave that appearance. Back then a scientific question was asked and the scientific answer was received. The Quran is clear on its own, and the Quran even states it is. That means the Quran doesn't and shouldn't need someone to explain what Allah said or meant. With that being said, another question comes to mind: does the sun ask Allah for permission to rise or is it something that God put into motion to happen on its own?
                            You're right, the Quran is clear on it's own. But some things in the Quran are not literal, like akhi [MENTION=135077]ForeverMonotheist1[/MENTION] said. If you think the Quran meant the sun was LITERALLY setting into the water, you're an idiot.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Does the Quran really say the Sun sets in a muddy spring?

                              It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.


                              Brother, is there deviation in your heart? If not, then how can u let enemies of Allah these kuffar atheists(may Allah humiliate them) deceive u on this simple thing?

                              Its clear that sun appears like it sets down in the ocean, but ofcourse thats not literally!

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