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  • #16
    Re: Question regarding salat

    Originally posted by vildan View Post
    About the order of the Quran, there is a difference of opinion. Some say it is permissible because the prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) once in the prayer read Al-baqarah, then Al-Nisa then A'l Imran which are not in order. .
    The order of surahs in Mushaf is not the same as revelations , so , do not see how order is maintained.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Question regarding salat

      Originally posted by Peace4mankind View Post
      but how would you know what the prophet [saw] meant when he said something; how would you know the contextual meaning?; shouldn't we refer to the experts for that?
      Brother prophets come for guidance of all kinds of people , among the companions all were not Mujtahids , there were bedounis also. Prophets speak directly , what they say is in simple language for everyone to understand.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Question regarding salat

        Originally posted by Bismil View Post
        Brother prophets come for guidance of all kinds of people , among the companions all were not Mujtahids , there were bedounis also. Prophets speak directly , what they say is in simple language for everyone to understand.
        That's not entirely correct. Yes, Prophet :saw: spoke brief but his words had lots of meaning, and they do need to be understood in proper context/ways. Words of the Prophet :saw: (in hadiths now) are for everyone to understand, but need experts to interpret and study and reach the correct message.
        Secure few moments, everyday, to reflect upon the innumerable blessings of Allah and thank Him for bestowing them upon you.

        "A person who is blessed with the ability to be grateful, shall never be deprived of barakah and increase in blessings."
        - Rasulullah (صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم)‎

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Question regarding salat

          Originally posted by .mirror. View Post
          That's not entirely correct. Yes, Prophet :saw: spoke brief but his words had lots of meaning, and they do need to be understood in proper context/ways. Words of the Prophet :saw: (in hadiths now) are for everyone to understand, but need experts to interpret and study and reach the correct message.
          But if a prophet does some act , then it shows that particular act is allowed.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Question regarding salat

            Originally posted by Bismil View Post
            Brother prophets come for guidance of all kinds of people , among the companions all were not Mujtahids , there were bedounis also. Prophets speak directly , what they say is in simple language for everyone to understand.
            Http://ccm-inc.Org/oldsite/iqra/arti...sun/chap2.Html
            Last edited by Peace4mankind; 16-11-15, 08:42 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Question regarding salat

              Originally posted by Peace4mankind View Post
              but how would you know what the prophet [saw] meant when he said something; how would you know the contextual meaning?; shouldn't we refer to the experts for that?
              Knowing can be in the form of consulting ''experts'' , however not every expert was correct about every thing every time

              What I mean is that once we know or have it clarified that the Prophet saw did something then we follow that not stick to a school or sect

              Did you know Imam Abu Hanifa ra allowed dealing in certain alcohol? but we know the Prophet saw forbade it. Hanifis today also forbid it as it became evident

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Question regarding salat

                Originally posted by .mirror. View Post
                Yeah, we living in 21st century "know" and these classical scholars didn't know from the times of the Sahabas (RA).

                People who make ignorant statements like these just reveal how little they know.
                For your information we in the 21st century are in a better position that the Imams of the past were, simply because ALL teh classical scholars works are there for us

                You call yourself a hanifi you must know that many of Imam Abu Hanifa ra rulings were changed by his students as more evidence came to light

                What is ignorant is your comments and what is verging on sin is your sectarianism

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Question regarding salat

                  Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
                  Knowing can be in the form of consulting ''experts'' , however not every expert was correct about every thing every time

                  What I mean is that once we know or have it clarified that the Prophet saw did something then we follow that not stick to a school or sect

                  Did you know Imam Abu Hanifa ra allowed dealing in certain alcohol? but we know the Prophet saw forbade it. Hanifis today also forbid it as it became evident
                  true bro not every scholar is correct in everything but collectively where they verify by consensus, everything is correct and all four schools are verified by consensus.

                  regarding any hadith, although they may seem to be clear yet when interpreted in context to all of the relevant evidences the ruling could be different; another hadith may have precedent over it etc etc so again we have to leave interpretations of hadiths to the experts

                  regarding opinions of any of the Imams which their students may have opposed, basically the strongest opinion is put forth in the madhab so we follow the madhab and not just one Imam

                  basically the mainstream Scholars say that there is no hadith that the Imams did not come across [we assume that as they were master scholars] and if they ruled different to a hadith than according to their criteria yet the ruling is different due to other considerations; bro take a little time to read the following [I know your going to say Imam Hanifa said if you find sahih hadith throw my saying against ... ' but this is only aimed at mujtahid bro, those qualified to interpret; not you an me! :D:

                  Again, in Maraqi as-Sa’ud, Sidi Abdullah says,

                  “The consensus today is on the four, and all have prohibited following [any] others.”

                  He says in Nashru al-bunud,

                  “This means that the consensus of the scholars today is on the four schools of thought, and I mean by the schools of Malik, Abu Hanifa, Shafi’i and Ahmad. Indeed, all of the scholars have prohibited following any other school of an independent and absolute mujtahid since the eighth century when the school of Dawud adh-Dhahiri died out and until the 12th Century and all subsequent ones.”

                  http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm


                  The Muqallid (follower) on this level cannot get caught up in discussions of proofs to see which Imam's view is stronger. His duty is merely to appoint one Mujtahid and follow his opinions in all matters. This is because he is not academically capable of making judgments of that kind. So much so that even if this person finds a Hadith which apparently contradicts the opinion of his appointed Imam, he should not resort to following the Hadith, but rather adhere to his Imam's opinion. He should assume that he has not understood the meaning or context of the Hadith appropriately or he should have no doubt that his Imam has a stronger proof than the Hadith in question, which he may not be aware of.

                  http://www.central-mosque.com/index....-a-madhab.html


                  We should also remember what sahih means. I shall conclude my essay with the five conditions that have to be met for a hadith to be considered sahih, and we shall see, in sha’ Allah, how the scholars of hadith have differed about them, a discussion drawn in its outlines from contemporary Syrian hadith scholar Muhammad ‘Awwama’s Athar al-hadith al-sharif fi ikhtilaf al-A’imma al-fuqaha [The effect of hadith on the differences of the Imams of fiqh] (21–23):

                  (a) The first condition is that a hadith must go back to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) by a continuous chain of narrators. There is a difference of opinion here between Bukhari and Muslim, in that Bukhari held that for any two adjacent narrators in a chain of transmission, it must be historically established that the two actually met, whereas Muslim and others stipulated only that their meeting have been possible, such as by one having lived in a particular city that the other is known to have visited at least once in his life. So some hadiths will be acceptable to Muslim that will not be acceptable to Bukhari and those of the mujtahid imams who adopt his criterion.

                  (b) The second condition for a sahih hadith is that the narrators be morally upright. The scholars have disagreed about the definition of this, some accepting that it is enough that a narrator be a Muslim who is not proven to have been unacceptable. Others stipulate that he be outwardly established as having been morally upright, while other scholars stipulate that this be established inwardly as well. These different criteria are naturally reasons why two mujtahids may differ about the authenticity of a single hadith.

                  (c) The third condition is that the narrators must be known to have had accurate memories. The verification of this is similarly subject to some disagreement between the Imams of hadith, resulting in differences about reliability ratings of particular narrators, and therefore of particular hadiths.

                  (d) The fourth condition for a sahih hadith is that the text and transmission of the hadith must be free of shudhudh, or "variance from established standard narrations of it." An example is when a hadith is related by five different narrators who are contemporaries of one another, all of whom relate the same hadith from the same sheikh through his chain of transmission back to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). Here, if we find that four of the hadiths have the same wording but one of them has a variant wording, the hadith with the variant wording is called shadhdh or "deviant," and it is not accepted, because the difference is naturally assumed to be the mistake of the one narrator, since all of the narrators heard the hadith from the same sheikh.

                  (e) The fifth and final condition for a sahih hadith is that both the text and chain of transmission must be without ‘illa or "hidden flaw" that alerts experts to expect inauthenticity in it. We will dwell for a moment on this point not only because it helps illustrate the processes of ijtihad, but because in-depth expertise in this condition was not common even among top hadith Imams. The greatest name in the field was ‘Ali al-Madini, one of the sheikhs of Bukhari, though his major work about it is now unfortunately lost. Daraqutni is perhaps the most famous specialist in the field whose works exist. In the words of Ibn al-Salah, a hafiz or "hadith master" (someone with at least 100,000 hadiths by memory), the knowledge of the ‘illa or "hidden flaw" is:

                  among the greatest of the sciences of hadith, the most exacting, and highest: only scholars of great memorization, hadith expertise, and penetrating understanding have a thorough knowledge of it. It refers to obscure, hidden flaws that vitiate hadiths, "flawed" meaning that a defect is discovered that negates the authenticity of a hadith that is outwardly "rigorously authenticated" (sahih). It affects hadiths with reliable chains of narrators that outwardly appear to fulfill all the conditions of a sahih hadith (‘Ulum al-hadith).

                  http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhabstlk.htm


                  “What do you say about someone who was following one of the four Imams, may Allah the Exalted be pleased with them, and then left claiming that he could derive his judgements directly form the Qur’an and the soundly transmitted hadiths, thus leaving the books of jurisprudence and inclining towards the view of Ahmad bin Idris? Moreover, he says to the one who clings to the speech of the Imams and their followers, “I say to you ‘Allah and His Messenger say’, and you reply ‘Malik said’ and ‘Ibn al-Qasim said’ or ‘Khalil said.’”

                  To this, Imam ‘Illish replies:

                  “My answer to this all this is as follows: Praise be to Allah, and Prayer and Safety be upon our Master Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. It is not permissible for a common person to abandon following the four Imams and take directly from the textual sources of the Qur’an and the hadiths for the simple reason that this entails a great many conditions that have been clarified in the books of usul. Moreover, these conditions are rarely met by the great scholars, especially in these last days in which Islam has become a stranger just as it began a stranger.”

                  Ibn ‘Uyyana, may Allah be pleased with him, has said,

                  “The hadiths are a source of error except for the jurists.”

                  What he means is that people, other than the scholars, might interpret a tradition based on an apparent meaning, and yet [the hadith may] have another interpretation based on some other hadith that clarifies the meaning or some proof that remains hidden [to the common people]. After a long discussion, he remarks,

                  “That as for their saying, ‘How can you leave clear Qur’anic verses and sound hadiths and follow the Imams in their ijtihads, which have a clear probability of error,’”

                  His answer to them is as follows:

                  “Surely the following of our [rightly guided] Imams is not abandoning the Qur’anic verses or the sound hadiths; it is the very essence of adhering to them and taking our judgements from them. This is because the Qur’an has not come down to us except by means of these very Imams [who are more worthy of following] by virtue of being more knowledgeable than us in [the sciences of] the abrogating and abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the equivocal and the clarifying, the probabilistic and the plain, the circumstances surrounding revelation and their various meanings, as well as their possible interpretations and various linguistic and philological considerations, [not to mention] the various other ancillary sciences [involved in understanding the Qur’an] needed.

                  “Also, they took all of that from the students of the companions (tabi’in) who received their instruction from the companions themselves, who received their instructions from the Lawgiver himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, divinely protected from every mistake, who bore witness that the first three generations of Muslims would be ones of virtue and righteousness. Furthermore, the prophetic traditions have also reached us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than those who came after them concerning the rigorously authenticated (sahih), the well authenticated (hasan), and the weak (da’if) channels of transmission, as well as the marfu’u4, mursal5, mutawatir6, ahad7, mu’dal8 and gharib9 transmissions.

                  “Thus, as far as this little band of men is concerned, there is only one of two possibilities: either they are attributing ignorance to Imams whose knowledge is considered by consensus to have reached human perfection as witnessed in several traditions of the truthful Lawgiver, upon him be prayers and peace, or they are actually attributing misguidance and lack of din to Imams who are all from the best of generations by the testimony of the magnificent Messenger himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Surely, it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts in our breasts.

                  As for their saying to the one who imitates Malik, for example, “We say to you ‘Allah says’ or ‘the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, says’ and you reply, ‘Malik says’, or ‘Ibn al-Qasim says’, or ‘Khalil says’, for example,” our response is that the follower who says, “Malik says . . . etc.,” means that, “Malik says based on his deep understanding of the Word of Allah, or of the words of the Messenger, or of those firmly adhering to the actions of the companions, or of the tabi’in who understood clearly the Word of Allah and the word of the Messenger of Allah or took their example from the actions of His Messenger.” And the meaning of [a follower] saying “Ibn al-Qasim said . . .” is that he has [faithfully] transmitted what Malik said based on his understanding of the Word of Allah or of what Ibn al-Qasim himself understood from the word of Allah the Most Exalted. And the meaning of him saying, “Khalil said . . . .”, for example, is that he is transmitting only from those [Imams] aforementioned. As for Malik and Ibn al-Qasim, they are both Imams whose spiritual and judicial authority is agreed upon by unanimous consensus of this Umma; and they are both from the best of generations.

                  As for the one who leaves their leadership and says, “Allah said and His Messenger said . . . ,” he has relied solely on his own understanding despite the fact that he is incapable of having any precision in the verses and hadiths that he quotes since he is unable even to provide chains of transmission [with any authority], let alone that he lacks knowledge concerning the abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the ambiguous and the clarifying, the apparent and the textual, the general and the specific, the dimensions of the Arabic and the cause for revelation, the various linguistic considerations, and other various ancillary sciences needed. So, consider for yourself which is preferable: the word of a follower who simply quotes the understanding of Malik, an Imam by consensus—or the word of this ignoramus who said “Allah said and His Messenger said . . . .” But it is not the sight that goes blind, but rather the hearts in our breasts.

                  http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm
                  Last edited by Peace4mankind; 16-11-15, 09:41 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Question regarding salat

                    Originally posted by vildan View Post
                    Majority of the schokars agree that the minimum of ayats needed to be recited after Fatiha is three small ayats or one big ayat (e.g. some ayat are about half a page to a page long). You can recite as much as you like and you can recite from wherever you wish - beginning, middle, end, etc, however within the same Surah you have to maintain the order.
                    Originally posted by .mirror. View Post
                    :salams

                    It is Sunnah to recite the following Surah for fardh salaah in first two rakats:

                    Fajr and Dhuhr: any Surah from Surah Al-Hujuraat to Surah Al-Burooj
                    'Asr and 'Isha: any Surah from Surah At-Taariq to Surah Al-Bayyina
                    Maghrib: any Surah from Surah al-Zalzalah to An-Naas

                    However, the minimum is three shorts verses or one long verse. But, you can recite any Surah that you know. They should be in order of how they appear in the Qur'an (for example: Surah Falaq in first rakat, then Surah Naas). And, the recitation in first rakaat should be longer than the recitation in second rakat (for example: reciting Surah 'Asr in first rakat then Surah al-Ikhlaas in second rakat).
                    Very nice to know. Let's me know where to start learning more.
                    لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ
                    سورة الإخلاص

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Question regarding salat

                      Originally posted by Yasirah87 View Post
                      Very nice to know. Let's me know where to start learning more.
                      SeekersHub offers free online courses on basic fiqh. You can benefit from that. If you have local masjid that offers classes, then you should take those. :insha:

                      Here is the link to online courses: http://courses.seekershub.org/
                      Secure few moments, everyday, to reflect upon the innumerable blessings of Allah and thank Him for bestowing them upon you.

                      "A person who is blessed with the ability to be grateful, shall never be deprived of barakah and increase in blessings."
                      - Rasulullah (صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم)‎

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Question regarding salat

                        [MENTION=90588]Peace4mankind[/MENTION]

                        Your posts are too long , can you briefly say what point you are making.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Question regarding salat

                          Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
                          For your information we in the 21st century are in a better position that the Imams of the past were, simply because ALL teh classical scholars works are there for usYou call yourself a hanifi you must know that many of Imam Abu Hanifa ra rulings were changed by his students as more evidence came to lightWhat is ignorant is your comments and what is verging on sin is your sectarianism
                          Exactly, we are in a much better position now that we have all recorded ahadith in front of us and all the works of the classical scholars.
                          You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                          You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Question regarding salat

                            Originally posted by Peace4mankind View Post
                            true bro not every scholar is correct in everything but collectively where they verify by consensus, everything is correct and all four schools are verified by consensus.

                            regarding any hadith, although they may seem to be clear yet when interpreted in context to all of the relevant evidences the ruling could be different; another hadith may have precedent over it etc etc so again we have to leave interpretations of hadiths to the experts

                            regarding opinions of any of the Imams which their students may have opposed, basically the strongest opinion is put forth in the madhab so we follow the madhab and not just one Imam

                            basically the mainstream Scholars say that there is no hadith that the Imams did not come across [we assume that as they were master scholars] and if they ruled different to a hadith than according to their criteria yet the ruling is different due to other considerations; bro take a little time to read the following [I know your going to say Imam Hanifa said if you find sahih hadith throw my saying against ... ' but this is only aimed at mujtahid bro, those qualified to interpret; not you an me! :D:

                            Again, in Maraqi as-Sa’ud, Sidi Abdullah says,

                            “The consensus today is on the four, and all have prohibited following [any] others.”

                            He says in Nashru al-bunud,

                            “This means that the consensus of the scholars today is on the four schools of thought, and I mean by the schools of Malik, Abu Hanifa, Shafi’i and Ahmad. Indeed, all of the scholars have prohibited following any other school of an independent and absolute mujtahid since the eighth century when the school of Dawud adh-Dhahiri died out and until the 12th Century and all subsequent ones.”

                            http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm


                            The Muqallid (follower) on this level cannot get caught up in discussions of proofs to see which Imam's view is stronger. His duty is merely to appoint one Mujtahid and follow his opinions in all matters. This is because he is not academically capable of making judgments of that kind. So much so that even if this person finds a Hadith which apparently contradicts the opinion of his appointed Imam, he should not resort to following the Hadith, but rather adhere to his Imam's opinion. He should assume that he has not understood the meaning or context of the Hadith appropriately or he should have no doubt that his Imam has a stronger proof than the Hadith in question, which he may not be aware of.

                            http://www.central-mosque.com/index....-a-madhab.html


                            We should also remember what sahih means. I shall conclude my essay with the five conditions that have to be met for a hadith to be considered sahih, and we shall see, in sha’ Allah, how the scholars of hadith have differed about them, a discussion drawn in its outlines from contemporary Syrian hadith scholar Muhammad ‘Awwama’s Athar al-hadith al-sharif fi ikhtilaf al-A’imma al-fuqaha [The effect of hadith on the differences of the Imams of fiqh] (21–23):

                            (a) The first condition is that a hadith must go back to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) by a continuous chain of narrators. There is a difference of opinion here between Bukhari and Muslim, in that Bukhari held that for any two adjacent narrators in a chain of transmission, it must be historically established that the two actually met, whereas Muslim and others stipulated only that their meeting have been possible, such as by one having lived in a particular city that the other is known to have visited at least once in his life. So some hadiths will be acceptable to Muslim that will not be acceptable to Bukhari and those of the mujtahid imams who adopt his criterion.

                            (b) The second condition for a sahih hadith is that the narrators be morally upright. The scholars have disagreed about the definition of this, some accepting that it is enough that a narrator be a Muslim who is not proven to have been unacceptable. Others stipulate that he be outwardly established as having been morally upright, while other scholars stipulate that this be established inwardly as well. These different criteria are naturally reasons why two mujtahids may differ about the authenticity of a single hadith.

                            (c) The third condition is that the narrators must be known to have had accurate memories. The verification of this is similarly subject to some disagreement between the Imams of hadith, resulting in differences about reliability ratings of particular narrators, and therefore of particular hadiths.

                            (d) The fourth condition for a sahih hadith is that the text and transmission of the hadith must be free of shudhudh, or "variance from established standard narrations of it." An example is when a hadith is related by five different narrators who are contemporaries of one another, all of whom relate the same hadith from the same sheikh through his chain of transmission back to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). Here, if we find that four of the hadiths have the same wording but one of them has a variant wording, the hadith with the variant wording is called shadhdh or "deviant," and it is not accepted, because the difference is naturally assumed to be the mistake of the one narrator, since all of the narrators heard the hadith from the same sheikh.

                            (e) The fifth and final condition for a sahih hadith is that both the text and chain of transmission must be without ‘illa or "hidden flaw" that alerts experts to expect inauthenticity in it. We will dwell for a moment on this point not only because it helps illustrate the processes of ijtihad, but because in-depth expertise in this condition was not common even among top hadith Imams. The greatest name in the field was ‘Ali al-Madini, one of the sheikhs of Bukhari, though his major work about it is now unfortunately lost. Daraqutni is perhaps the most famous specialist in the field whose works exist. In the words of Ibn al-Salah, a hafiz or "hadith master" (someone with at least 100,000 hadiths by memory), the knowledge of the ‘illa or "hidden flaw" is:

                            among the greatest of the sciences of hadith, the most exacting, and highest: only scholars of great memorization, hadith expertise, and penetrating understanding have a thorough knowledge of it. It refers to obscure, hidden flaws that vitiate hadiths, "flawed" meaning that a defect is discovered that negates the authenticity of a hadith that is outwardly "rigorously authenticated" (sahih). It affects hadiths with reliable chains of narrators that outwardly appear to fulfill all the conditions of a sahih hadith (‘Ulum al-hadith).

                            http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhabstlk.htm


                            “What do you say about someone who was following one of the four Imams, may Allah the Exalted be pleased with them, and then left claiming that he could derive his judgements directly form the Qur’an and the soundly transmitted hadiths, thus leaving the books of jurisprudence and inclining towards the view of Ahmad bin Idris? Moreover, he says to the one who clings to the speech of the Imams and their followers, “I say to you ‘Allah and His Messenger say’, and you reply ‘Malik said’ and ‘Ibn al-Qasim said’ or ‘Khalil said.’”

                            To this, Imam ‘Illish replies:

                            “My answer to this all this is as follows: Praise be to Allah, and Prayer and Safety be upon our Master Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. It is not permissible for a common person to abandon following the four Imams and take directly from the textual sources of the Qur’an and the hadiths for the simple reason that this entails a great many conditions that have been clarified in the books of usul. Moreover, these conditions are rarely met by the great scholars, especially in these last days in which Islam has become a stranger just as it began a stranger.”

                            Ibn ‘Uyyana, may Allah be pleased with him, has said,

                            “The hadiths are a source of error except for the jurists.”

                            What he means is that people, other than the scholars, might interpret a tradition based on an apparent meaning, and yet [the hadith may] have another interpretation based on some other hadith that clarifies the meaning or some proof that remains hidden [to the common people]. After a long discussion, he remarks,

                            “That as for their saying, ‘How can you leave clear Qur’anic verses and sound hadiths and follow the Imams in their ijtihads, which have a clear probability of error,’”

                            His answer to them is as follows:

                            “Surely the following of our [rightly guided] Imams is not abandoning the Qur’anic verses or the sound hadiths; it is the very essence of adhering to them and taking our judgements from them. This is because the Qur’an has not come down to us except by means of these very Imams [who are more worthy of following] by virtue of being more knowledgeable than us in [the sciences of] the abrogating and abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the equivocal and the clarifying, the probabilistic and the plain, the circumstances surrounding revelation and their various meanings, as well as their possible interpretations and various linguistic and philological considerations, [not to mention] the various other ancillary sciences [involved in understanding the Qur’an] needed.

                            “Also, they took all of that from the students of the companions (tabi’in) who received their instruction from the companions themselves, who received their instructions from the Lawgiver himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, divinely protected from every mistake, who bore witness that the first three generations of Muslims would be ones of virtue and righteousness. Furthermore, the prophetic traditions have also reached us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than us through their means given that they were also more knowledgeable than those who came after them concerning the rigorously authenticated (sahih), the well authenticated (hasan), and the weak (da’if) channels of transmission, as well as the marfu’u4, mursal5, mutawatir6, ahad7, mu’dal8 and gharib9 transmissions.

                            “Thus, as far as this little band of men is concerned, there is only one of two possibilities: either they are attributing ignorance to Imams whose knowledge is considered by consensus to have reached human perfection as witnessed in several traditions of the truthful Lawgiver, upon him be prayers and peace, or they are actually attributing misguidance and lack of din to Imams who are all from the best of generations by the testimony of the magnificent Messenger himself, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Surely, it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts in our breasts.

                            As for their saying to the one who imitates Malik, for example, “We say to you ‘Allah says’ or ‘the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, says’ and you reply, ‘Malik says’, or ‘Ibn al-Qasim says’, or ‘Khalil says’, for example,” our response is that the follower who says, “Malik says . . . etc.,” means that, “Malik says based on his deep understanding of the Word of Allah, or of the words of the Messenger, or of those firmly adhering to the actions of the companions, or of the tabi’in who understood clearly the Word of Allah and the word of the Messenger of Allah or took their example from the actions of His Messenger.” And the meaning of [a follower] saying “Ibn al-Qasim said . . .” is that he has [faithfully] transmitted what Malik said based on his understanding of the Word of Allah or of what Ibn al-Qasim himself understood from the word of Allah the Most Exalted. And the meaning of him saying, “Khalil said . . . .”, for example, is that he is transmitting only from those [Imams] aforementioned. As for Malik and Ibn al-Qasim, they are both Imams whose spiritual and judicial authority is agreed upon by unanimous consensus of this Umma; and they are both from the best of generations.

                            As for the one who leaves their leadership and says, “Allah said and His Messenger said . . . ,” he has relied solely on his own understanding despite the fact that he is incapable of having any precision in the verses and hadiths that he quotes since he is unable even to provide chains of transmission [with any authority], let alone that he lacks knowledge concerning the abrogated, the absolute and the conditional, the ambiguous and the clarifying, the apparent and the textual, the general and the specific, the dimensions of the Arabic and the cause for revelation, the various linguistic considerations, and other various ancillary sciences needed. So, consider for yourself which is preferable: the word of a follower who simply quotes the understanding of Malik, an Imam by consensus—or the word of this ignoramus who said “Allah said and His Messenger said . . . .” But it is not the sight that goes blind, but rather the hearts in our breasts.

                            http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/mhfatwa.htm
                            TBh akhie that source is not one i take from and i agree with your statment that i put in bold above

                            Basically akhie Imam Abu Hanifas wisdom was how correct he was in making ijtihad on many matters without certain evidences hence He ra was of the ahl ul rai, which isnt contestes

                            Now I am going off memory here so forgive me if i have the detail incorrect, but the point is highlighted, Imam Abu Hanifa had access to maybe 100 hadith yet Imam Hanbal had access to 100, 000 which is evidence that all hadith were not known by all the ulema of that period

                            The process of collecting hadith was painstaking for those ulema, Just having hadith collators liek Imam Bukhari and Muslim ra has made it easier for ulema of today realistically

                            This isnt to undermine any of the great imams in any way, we also have imams like Saad ul Layth who little is known about but the likes of Imam Shafiee ra thought so highly of him that he became a student of one of his students. It is said about him that:

                            Al-'Alaa' Ibn Katheer was quoted as saying;

                            "Al-Leyth Ibn Sa'd is our master, Imaam and scholar."

                            Imaam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal is quoted as saying;

                            "Al-Leyth had profound knowledge and his narration of Hadeeths is authentic."

                            Imaam Ash-Shaafi`i is quoted as saying;

                            "Al-Leyth is more knowledgeable than Malik."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Question regarding salat

                              Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
                              TBh akhie that source is not one i take from and i agree with your statment that i put in bold above

                              Basically akhie Imam Abu Hanifas wisdom was how correct he was in making ijtihad on many matters without certain evidences hence He ra was of the ahl ul rai, which isnt contestes

                              Now I am going off memory here so forgive me if i have the detail incorrect, but the point is highlighted, Imam Abu Hanifa had access to maybe 100 hadith yet Imam Hanbal had access to 100, 000 which is evidence that all hadith were not known by all the ulema of that period

                              The process of collecting hadith was painstaking for those ulema, Just having hadith collators liek Imam Bukhari and Muslim ra has made it easier for ulema of today realistically

                              This isnt to undermine any of the great imams in any way, we also have imams like Saad ul Layth who little is known about but the likes of Imam Shafiee ra thought so highly of him that he became a student of one of his students. It is said about him that:

                              Al-'Alaa' Ibn Katheer was quoted as saying;

                              "Al-Leyth Ibn Sa'd is our master, Imaam and scholar."

                              Imaam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal is quoted as saying;

                              "Al-Leyth had profound knowledge and his narration of Hadeeths is authentic."

                              Imaam Ash-Shaafi`i is quoted as saying;

                              "Al-Leyth is more knowledgeable than Malik."
                              let me just tell you a bit about that source bro; yes it's by mainstream Scholars but shouldn't you consider what they say?; if we say 'that guy says dancing is ok i'm not taking from him', I can say about your sources, 'that guy says Allah has two eyes i'm not taking from him' and if none of us read anything then we'd get nowhere will we?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Question regarding salat

                                Originally posted by Peace4mankind View Post
                                let me just tell you a bit about that source bro; yes it's by mainstream Scholars but shouldn't you consider what they say?; if we say 'that guy says dancing is ok i'm not taking from him', I can say about your sources, 'that guy says Allah has two eyes i'm not taking from him' and if none of us read anything then we'd get nowhere will we?
                                i do consider what certain people say on certain topics, even if there is disagreement

                                but someone like HMN Keller I wouldnt entertain and would always warn people of, to call him a scholar is a huge stretch, hamza yusuf, some scholars dont even class as muslim and i dont argue with those scholars
                                Last edited by nonameakhi; 17-11-15, 08:05 PM.

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