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  • Finish me off, prove Islam is true

    I have been reading up on Islam and I no longer believe Christianity or Judaism to be "true". But I am not convinced that Islam is the true religion. There seems to be a lot of pagan traditions in it. I left Christianity many years ago (before even considering Islam) because I realized it was a creation of man, and I am not going to make that same mistake again by picking up another religion of man (no offense), and Islam seems to be that.

    I'm "trying" to believe in Islam, but I cannot disprove the pagan aspects, and until I do that I will not believe it. My suspicions that Islam are correct are very strong - I have studied the religions in the world enough to have eliminated everything except Islam and Buddhism (buddism is by it's nature so subjective that it is impossible to "prove").

    The problem I come across is when I am talking to a lot of Muslims, they can only use the Quran to prove that the Quran is true... Every religion says it is the true religion and that the others are false, and every religion "proves itself to be true", so therefore is it not fertile philosophical ground to use to "prove" anything. This is known in the philosophical arena as an appeal to authority logical fallacy - that a possibly biased authority source (in this example the Quran) will always stick up for itself (in this example by affirming it is true) even if it isn't.

    I want these pagan connections disproven OUTSIDE of the Quran aka outside of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

    You do that, and there is really nothing else preventing me from saying my Shahada and converting. I "want" to, but until I know for a fact I am not falling for another trap I am not going to do it.

    answering-islam.org/Silas/pagansources.htm

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam
    Last edited by learnedseeker; 26-07-15, 03:03 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

    I can't do that. I can't change your heart-- it's Allah that does that. Where there is a genuine conversion, there is a change on that soul. It's not a matter of being intellectually satisfied, like seing how a plant behaves in certain weather.
    "Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie." (surah 6:116)

    Comment


    • #3
      Finish me off, prove Islam is true

      If you like science here.
      http://www.islamawareness.net/Science/quranmodernscience.pdf
      http://www.speed-light.info/miracles_of_quran/
      http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iVwF2k5KTk0 watch the whole video.

      And if you want to learn about islamic history, then read about it from Muslims not from non-Muslims.
      “Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.” Quran 45:23-24

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

        Originally posted by learnedseeker View Post
        I have been reading up on Islam and I no longer believe Christianity or Judaism to be "true". But I am not convinced that Islam is the true religion. There seems to be a lot of pagan traditions in it. I left Christianity many years ago (before even considering Islam) because I realized it was a creation of man, and I am not going to make that same mistake again by picking up another religion of man (no offense), and Islam seems to be that.

        I'm "trying" to believe in Islam, but I cannot disprove the pagan aspects, and until I do that I will not believe it. My suspicions that Islam are correct are very strong - I have studied the religions in the world enough to have eliminated everything except Islam and Buddhism (buddism is by it's nature so subjective that it is impossible to "prove").

        The problem I come across is when I am talking to a lot of Muslims, they can only use the Quran to prove that the Quran is true... Every religion says it is the true religion and that the others are false, and every religion "proves itself to be true", so therefore is it not fertile philosophical ground to use to "prove" anything. This is known in the philosophical arena as an appeal to authority logical fallacy - that a possibly biased authority source (in this example the Quran) will always stick up for itself (in this example by affirming it is true) even if it isn't.

        I want these pagan connections disproven OUTSIDE of the Quran aka outside of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

        You do that, and there is really nothing else preventing me from saying my Shahada and converting. I "want" to, but until I know for a fact I am not falling for another trap I am not going to do it.

        answering-islam.org/Silas/pagansources.htm

        http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam
        Yes the Kaaba was built first and it was built even before the great flood of Noah but it was built again by Prophet Abraham (pbuh) on the remains of the foundation of the first kaaba. ( http://quran.com/22/26 ) So the Hadith could have meant to the first construction before Abraham (pbuh) and similarly there could have been the construction of the Al Aqsa mosque itself after 40 , Note years in brackets ( just an interpretaion and not an exact quotation ) which could have meant 40 ' generations ' or even 40,000 years missing the word ' thousand' or '000' ( could be between Adam and Solomon and their ages,generations were unlike us Adam 950 years, Idris 900 or 800 years and so on ) after it though reference is not found explicitly found and the Hadith and we do not claim Hadith is Protected 100 % as the Noble Quran is word to word ( Thats why Imam Bukhari did reject 96 % of his own collection fearing some mistake) though The Noble Quran had high lighted the Kaaba's construction by Prophet Abraham ( No doubt in it ) and the hadith could have referred to earlier construction which was done in this earth by Angels first on the Earth.

        Pagan sources you refer is in the way you think because Allah says the respect we give to the signs of Allah comes out from the piety and Allah had ordered us to repeat those incidents of Safa and Marwa or the sacrifice of the Sheep as reminders iow COMMEMERATE the Greatest Love and obedience that this Greatest Prophet Abraham (pbuh) did which never a man could do with his LONG AWAITED Most beloved ONLY son, Ishmael, at a feeble age of 90 and that too in a lonely isolated Desert . The Black stone or the circum ambulation of the kaaba ( which was done nude before Prophet and whistling and clapping was their worship ) no way proves Islam pagan but reminds of the incidents in this great Land of Mecca where once the Greatest Noblest souls ever born once walked there on this esteemed Earth to which its obligatory for every affordable Muslim to do once in his life. so do not mix Paganism with true Respect, love & piety and common sense with pagan worshiping of idols .
        Last edited by talibilm09; 06-09-15, 12:53 AM.
        My sect - No Sect

        My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

        Just a Muslim

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

          Originally posted by learnedseeker View Post
          I have been reading up on Islam and I no longer believe Christianity or Judaism to be "true". But I am not convinced that Islam is the true religion. There seems to be a lot of pagan traditions in it. I left Christianity many years ago (before even considering Islam) because I realized it was a creation of man, and I am not going to make that same mistake again by picking up another religion of man (no offense), and Islam seems to be that.

          I'm "trying" to believe in Islam, but I cannot disprove the pagan aspects, and until I do that I will not believe it. My suspicions that Islam are correct are very strong - I have studied the religions in the world enough to have eliminated everything except Islam and Buddhism (buddism is by it's nature so subjective that it is impossible to "prove").

          The problem I come across is when I am talking to a lot of Muslims, they can only use the Quran to prove that the Quran is true... Every religion says it is the true religion and that the others are false, and every religion "proves itself to be true", so therefore is it not fertile philosophical ground to use to "prove" anything. This is known in the philosophical arena as an appeal to authority logical fallacy - that a possibly biased authority source (in this example the Quran) will always stick up for itself (in this example by affirming it is true) even if it isn't.

          I want these pagan connections disproven OUTSIDE of the Quran aka outside of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

          You do that, and there is really nothing else preventing me from saying my Shahada and converting. I "want" to, but until I know for a fact I am not falling for another trap I am not going to do it.

          answering-islam.org/Silas/pagansources.htm

          http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam
          Response: Similarity does not mean false. If I take a test and the answers are correct, then you take a similar test and your answers are the same as mine, that can means you are correct as well. Not that you are false. So you have to elaborate more as to why a "Pagan connection" has to be refuted.

          Furthermore, when you say you do not want the Qur'an to be used, you are basically being selective of your own sources without validating them yourself. Hence, you are appealing to authority as well and doing the same thing you say you don't want people to do with the Qur'an.

          So from the start, the basis of your doubt is inconsistent so that alone is an outside source that gives Islam credibility as the truth because your own reasoning to doubt it is inconsistent. Similarity does not mean falsehood. So Pagan practices that are similar to Islam does not mean Islam is false. It can mean that Islam is false because it may be that the Qur'an copied pagan practices and took credit for them. However, it can mean that they both are true as well because they came from the same source and the Qur'an acknowledges this same source. So to figure out if that is the case we MUST look at the origin of the Qur'an. If the Qur'an is truly from Allah and has no error, then we know the "Pagan connection" is the result of Pagans copying Islam. If the Qur'an is false, then we know the Muslims copied the Pagans. So is the Qur'an the true word of Allah?

          You said you wanted evidence outside of the Qur'an as your answer. Sure.

          "Will they not then meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

          “Verily, We, it is We who have sent down the Qur’an and surely we will guard it from corruption”.


          Here we have a test that demonstrates that there is no error in the Qur'an, showing the truthful nature of the Qur'an. If a person disagrees, then the individual can take up the challenge to find a discrepancy in the Qur’an and when the person discovers that there is no discrepancy, then the only logical conclusion that can be derived is that whomever the author of the Qur’an is, the individual is a truth teller and righteous because all of the content in the Qur’an is without error, indecency, and immorality, and it is a guidance to righteousness. The question still remains as to who is the author? The Qur’an answers this question with the following test. The Qur’an states:

          "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful."

          Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the Qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an. For when trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, the skeptic will learn first-hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.

          But before the a skeptic develops the common response of simply producing something in Arabic or claiming that the challenge is not valid because not being able to produce a play like Shakespeare does not mean that the play is from God so the same analogy applies to the Qur'an, let me further elaborate. The Qur'an, like any scripture, is inspiration. And like any scripture, its intent is to inspire people to follow its teaching. Thus the challenge is to produce something that is as inspirational as the Qur'an, for it is the inspiration of the Qur'an that is miraculous. And what is that miracle? The miracle is within the following:

          "It is humanly impossible for a person/s to inspire enough followers to help him/her/ them conquer and rule a nation by using human-made speech/literature that goes against the likes and beliefs of those people."

          This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is humanly impossible to use any speech or literature that goes against the majority and is invented by a person/s, to inspire enough followers amongst them to help to conquer and rule a nation. The skeptic still disagrees? Then take the challenge and prove differently. Try using a speech or literature that does not agree with the likes of a majority of people that is an invention by a person/s. Then use that very same speech to inspire them to conquer a nation for you to rule and see what happens. The challenge can even be simplified by asking a skeptic to just conquer and rule the street that he or she lives on and see what happens. Yet the person will fail and fail miserably. No person will come close to achieving the challenge. Any individual, when taking the challenge, will have a first-hand eyewitness account from experience and observation that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when the person will learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? The reason is because Muhammad used the Qur'an to inspire enough followers to help him conquer and rule a nation in the same fashion. So since it is humanly impossible to use human-made speech or literature that goes against the likes of the masses to inspire them to follow a person/s to help conquer and rule a nation, yet Muhammad used the Qur'an to do just that, then what does that mean? That means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah. Do the skeptics still disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. When the challengers fail, because they will, this will help to demonstrate that the Qur’an is of divine origin as proven by the scientific method itself because it provides a hands-on eyewitness account that producing something like the Qur’an is humanly impossible. If you read this, and you yourself disagree, then take the challenge and prove differently.

          You have two tests OUTSIDE of the Qur'an that proves the Qur'an is the true word from Allah. You disagree? Take the tests and prove differently.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

            to be completely honest my brother i would recommand Reading this Website it will help you understand everything.

            http://www.ahlus-sunna.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

              You really want to know if Islam is the truth...run to Allah and he will show you..
              Women lost their modesty when men lost their gheerah..” .

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

                Originally posted by learnedseeker View Post
                I have been reading up on Islam and I no longer believe Christianity or Judaism to be "true". But I am not convinced that Islam is the true religion. There seems to be a lot of pagan traditions in it. I left Christianity many years ago (before even considering Islam) because I realized it was a creation of man, and I am not going to make that same mistake again by picking up another religion of man (no offense), and Islam seems to be that.

                I'm "trying" to believe in Islam, but I cannot disprove the pagan aspects, and until I do that I will not believe it. My suspicions that Islam are correct are very strong - I have studied the religions in the world enough to have eliminated everything except Islam and Buddhism (buddism is by it's nature so subjective that it is impossible to "prove").

                The problem I come across is when I am talking to a lot of Muslims, they can only use the Quran to prove that the Quran is true... Every religion says it is the true religion and that the others are false, and every religion "proves itself to be true", so therefore is it not fertile philosophical ground to use to "prove" anything. This is known in the philosophical arena as an appeal to authority logical fallacy - that a possibly biased authority source (in this example the Quran) will always stick up for itself (in this example by affirming it is true) even if it isn't.

                I want these pagan connections disproven OUTSIDE of the Quran aka outside of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

                You do that, and there is really nothing else preventing me from saying my Shahada and converting. I "want" to, but until I know for a fact I am not falling for another trap I am not going to do it.

                answering-islam.org/Silas/pagansources.htm

                http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam
                This is probably not helpful, but if you're 'trying' as you say then you will get there. It's necessary for you to go through this. If you are sincerely seeking the truth you will find it. God guides those who are sincere in their quest.

                (Btw, can I ask where you're from? You don't have to answer if you'd rather not of course.)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

                  How about you read the Qur'an itself? It talks about science such as the big bang, how we were created, and many things.
                  What about watching videos on youtube about perhaps...muslims debating with athiests?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

                    Originally posted by kittymuslimah View Post
                    How about you read the Qur'an itself? It talks about science such as the big bang, how we were created, and many things.
                    What about watching videos on youtube about perhaps...muslims debating with athiests?
                    To be honest, I'm not sure I exactly understand what he's asking.

                    Are you talking about the religious rituals in Islam LearnedSeeker?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

                      Originally posted by learnedseeker View Post
                      I have been reading up on Islam and I no longer believe Christianity or Judaism to be "true". But I am not convinced that Islam is the true religion. There seems to be a lot of pagan traditions in it. I left Christianity many years ago (before even considering Islam) because I realized it was a creation of man, and I am not going to make that same mistake again by picking up another religion of man (no offense), and Islam seems to be that.

                      I'm "trying" to believe in Islam, but I cannot disprove the pagan aspects, and until I do that I will not believe it. My suspicions that Islam are correct are very strong - I have studied the religions in the world enough to have eliminated everything except Islam and Buddhism (buddism is by it's nature so subjective that it is impossible to "prove").

                      The problem I come across is when I am talking to a lot of Muslims, they can only use the Quran to prove that the Quran is true... Every religion says it is the true religion and that the others are false, and every religion "proves itself to be true", so therefore is it not fertile philosophical ground to use to "prove" anything. This is known in the philosophical arena as an appeal to authority logical fallacy - that a possibly biased authority source (in this example the Quran) will always stick up for itself (in this example by affirming it is true) even if it isn't.

                      I want these pagan connections disproven OUTSIDE of the Quran aka outside of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

                      You do that, and there is really nothing else preventing me from saying my Shahada and converting. I "want" to, but until I know for a fact I am not falling for another trap I am not going to do it.

                      answering-islam.org/Silas/pagansources.htm

                      http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam
                      Not sure if you're a real person or just a troll, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

                      Someone told me to come in here since I was a Christian and I tried to be a 'good christian' but the more I tried, the more I learned, the more I realized how much man made stuff was in christianity. I believed in God, I believed in the prophets and messengers, however I always argued about the man made stuff with teachers, priests, pastors, etc...

                      I studied many world religions and yes I ultimately did become Muslim in dec 2003 but I'll get to that later.

                      I also heavily loved philosophy, I was a skeptic and still to some respect I hold this mentality, I don't accept things easily without some rational or evidence or purpose. I no longer doubt in the extreme because that's just lunacy. That it took descartes to THINK about thinking to realize he is real... yeah.. I've even gone that far in some regards.

                      Now as far as your question about Islam and it's 'pagan origins'.

                      The first problem in your post is that you are quoting two of the biggest fraudulent anti-islam websites on the internet. Sites that maintain many lies and contradictions towards Islam such as the orientalist claim of "moon god" worship. To start with that claim, anyone makes such an assertion has not read a page of the Qur'an.

                      The unique aspect of Islamic monotheism is that it is absolute. In other words, we absolutely do not associate God with the creation. God is God. God is not the creation, God is the creator. So the moon being a creation... that in itself showcases how ignorant some of those claiming to make those claims are of Islam.

                      The kaba being a 'pagan box', the kaba was built by Abraham and Ishmael and this tradition was known amongst the descendants of Ishamel, the arabs. The pagan Arabs who abandoned monotheism and turned to idolatry still believed and understood this, but they became pagans.

                      The Jews in the bible tried to call Ishmael's descendants as donkeys in one part of the bible, in another 'a great nation'. Even when Islam came, they recognized the prophet salalahu alaiyhi salam but they rejected it out of pride of their race, how could an Arab be a prophet when most prophets were sent to us we were "God's chosen people".

                      As far as references to the kaba in the bible, there is one the valley of baka, or the valley of makkah, bakka was the ancient name for makkah. Still they will reject this because out of pride and arrogance.

                      The quran being proof itself is not so much a contradiction if you give it some thought. Why wouldn't it be? Proof in which ways? Have you thought about that?

                      If something is from God would it contradict itself for example. The quran does not contradict itself. The bible/torah contradicts itself almost verse to verse sometimes.

                      Consistency of the message, confirmation of that which was both in speech and action. Have you ever considered that the quran reaffirms what was before and that Muslims are the only ones who uphold that which was/is? Even right in front of us this is evident.

                      Look at Christians and Jews on the other hand?

                      Have you ever looked at how some early christians prayed? There's copts in Egypt who pray very similarly to this day the way Muslims pray. Have you ever asked Jews how they 'used to' pray? They changed it but used to pray very similarly to the way Muslims pray except sujood would be first and ruku second, it's reverse for us as Muslims. Today they never perform sujud but just bounce in stationary position.

                      There are too many facts to explore.

                      All the claims of Islam being pagan are rubbish started by Christian orientalists who try to attack Islam in their hate. Because Islam constantly talks against paganism and idolatry.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

                        Also yes I looked into hinduism and budhism as well. Buddhism is a contradicting system, on the one hand telling people to restrict themselves from desires, yet humans are a creature of desire. In other words any religion that contradicts man's nature is not a religion from God.

                        One thing that's unique about Islam vs budhism, christianity, etc... is that Allah takes into account how we are and tells us what's best of us, as the creator He would know what's best for us. A creator that understands the creation. Budhism contradicts human desires. Christianity even does. Priests/nuns not marrying? Also a contradiction since God said to us to procreate. Or how christianity views sex as dark and evil. Islam celebrates sex and encourages it, but within the bond of marriage. Allah understands how he created us. Christianity on the other hand views it as something dirty and disgusting.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

                          Originally posted by kittymuslimah View Post
                          How about you read the Qur'an itself? It talks about science such as the big bang, how we were created, and many things.
                          What about watching videos on youtube about perhaps...muslims debating with athiests?
                          This is ridiculous to give someone da'wah. While there is a verse where Allah says have the unbelievers not considered how the heavens were one and we split them asunder. The qur'an is not a book of science, it's a book of signs and it's a book of GUIDANCE.

                          While when I became Muslim I was aware of some of these things, this is not what led me to islam completely, rather, it was the message and the consistency of the message. The principles.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

                            Originally posted by Ahmed2013 View Post
                            This is ridiculous to give someone da'wah. While there is a verse where Allah says have the unbelievers not considered how the heavens were one and we split them asunder. The qur'an is not a book of science, it's a book of signs and it's a book of GUIDANCE.

                            While when I became Muslim I was aware of some of these things, this is not what led me to islam completely, rather, it was the message and the consistency of the message. The principles.
                            Ok lol.
                            I know it's not a book of science, I believe in it because it makes sense and answers my questions and doubts.
                            Didn't exactly post something that helpful.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Finish me off, prove Islam is true

                              Originally posted by learnedseeker View Post
                              I have been reading up on Islam and I no longer believe Christianity or Judaism to be "true". But I am not convinced that Islam is the true religion. There seems to be a lot of pagan traditions in it. I left Christianity many years ago (before even considering Islam) because I realized it was a creation of man, and I am not going to make that same mistake again by picking up another religion of man (no offense), and Islam seems to be that.

                              I'm "trying" to believe in Islam, but I cannot disprove the pagan aspects, and until I do that I will not believe it. My suspicions that Islam are correct are very strong - I have studied the religions in the world enough to have eliminated everything except Islam and Buddhism (buddism is by it's nature so subjective that it is impossible to "prove").

                              The problem I come across is when I am talking to a lot of Muslims, they can only use the Quran to prove that the Quran is true... Every religion says it is the true religion and that the others are false, and every religion "proves itself to be true", so therefore is it not fertile philosophical ground to use to "prove" anything. This is known in the philosophical arena as an appeal to authority logical fallacy - that a possibly biased authority source (in this example the Quran) will always stick up for itself (in this example by affirming it is true) even if it isn't.

                              I want these pagan connections disproven OUTSIDE of the Quran aka outside of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.

                              You do that, and there is really nothing else preventing me from saying my Shahada and converting. I "want" to, but until I know for a fact I am not falling for another trap I am not going to do it.

                              answering-islam.org/Silas/pagansources.htm

                              http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam
                              hey bro hows it going
                              firstly you are doing really well, keep searching for the truth and inshaallah you will be guided. it is one thing to investigate religions but it is equally important you pray for guidance. say oh my creator guide me to the religion that pleases you. if you are sincere inshaallah it will be answered
                              as you are looking for proofs outside of quran i would recomend reading this ebook
                              http://www.onereason.org/order-mater...nderpants-pdf/
                              it is by a scholar called ar green and goes through some logical arguments for the truth of al islam
                              if you have any further questions feel free to post them here
                              The sunnah is like the ark of Noah, whoever embarks upon it reaches salvation and whoever refuses is drowned.
                              ~ Imam Malik (may Allah have mercy on him)

                              Comment

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