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Question about the apostasy law

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  • Patient_Muwahid
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Ikhwa i was not in the country for some while.
    There is No doubt that harmful version of apostasy must be punished by death. Unfortunately there is no hardcore evidence from quran and sunnah that apostate who is not a threat to the scoeity must be killed for merely changing his/her religion. This freedom is giving to all humans. Allah swt says let him believe who wants to believe and disbelieve who wants to disbelieve.
    Did Allah swt not say: will you then force people to believe??
    Or how about prophet Muhammad pbuh knowing the hypocrites of madinah, why didnt he order sahaba to kill them because they embraced islam then left islam(through hypocrisy).

    The sahaba ridwanullah aleyhim were so merciful that they gave the harmful apostate(who would join enemy army) three days to repent. Subhanallah! It would however be grave sin and great deviation from quran and sunnah if the sahaba killed peaceful apostates who form no danger to the ummah society & the state.



    Imagine the Westerns/Asians killed reverts to islam because they left their ancestors religion.

    Remember the words of Abu Bakr siddiq radiyallah anhu who said to the makkans: will you kill a man for saying My Lord is Allah? Then why should we kill a man or woman who is giving the freedom of religion from the Lord of the Worlds to believe or disbelieve.

    Alhamdulilah the evidences in quran and sunnah about threatening form of apostasy is very clear, we cannot put that aside and give preference to a unclear hadith that is not clear at all and we do not know who reported that and his intentions of attributing such hadith to the holy prophet Muhammad pbuh. Because such unclear hadith diminishes the real message of quran and hadith.
    Last edited by Patient_Muwahid; 25-08-15, 07:23 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • hatche
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by Spicen View Post
    According to hadith, if im not mistaken, insulting a muslim is mushrik.
    Assalamualaikum! :D

    No.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spicen
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by hatche View Post
    Just giving him a taste of some of his own medicine. :)
    According to hadith, if im not mistaken, insulting a muslim is mushrik.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spicen
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
    Sorry just to clarify what I said in my last post
    What I meant was there was no apostasy law in Makkah and in the early stages of madinah, just like there was no punishment for drinking alcohol (in fact it was allowed), and just like Hijab was not fard with some other things
    The ruling came later on, there was no actual abrogation, a new ruling was implemented that's all
    My guess it was for social reasons. One bad apple can create more bad apples, so to speak.

    Furthermore, at that time there was Prophet(S) to explain the verses of Quran. So any sincere muslim could clear his doubts easily.

    Today we dont have that luxury.

    Leave a comment:


  • hatche
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    I don't think it was appropriate to call him that.
    Just giving him a taste of some of his own medicine. :)

    Leave a comment:


  • abufulaans
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Sorry just to clarify what I said in my last post
    What I meant was there was no apostasy law in Makkah and in the early stages of madinah, just like there was no punishment for drinking alcohol (in fact it was allowed), and just like Hijab was not fard with some other things
    The ruling came later on, there was no actual abrogation, a new ruling was implemented that's all

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikha’eel
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by hatche View Post
    Assalamualaikum, brother! :D

    You and Mikhaeel have done wonderful work! May Allah bless you two!

    As for Al-fatihah, that low-life scumbag can't refute you at all.
    I don't think it was appropriate to call him that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Foodadad
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Statement 1: 'change religion' doesn't specify, so let's pretend it doesn't exist.

    Statement 2: these verses refer to and/or include apostates, because I say so.

    Statement 3: this Hadith doesn't say it, but as per my previous random deduction, we can assume and insert the conclusion and specify that the jew was at war.

    Bravo.

    Leave a comment:


  • hatche
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
    Don't run away, I explained that the verses and Hadith you gave have been abrogated just like alcohol, was originally ok
    Can't you refute me now?
    Assalamualaikum, brother! :D

    You and Mikhaeel have done wonderful work! May Allah bless you two!

    As for Al-fatihah, that low-life scumbag can't refute you at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • abufulaans
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
    Freeconferencecall. Com

    Dial in number: (712) 775-7031 If you live in the US.

    Access Code 658679 followed by the # sign.

    Just name the time you are ready to debate so we can be live at the same time. Then dial the dial in number, then the access number followed by the # sign. The LIVE recorded debate begins. I take ALL challengers.

    If you do not live in the US, let me know what country because different countries have different dial in numbers.
    OK if you are still not convinced there is one thing left
    If we speak in a well manner maybe we will get somewhere

    What is the ruling on alcohol? Is it halal or Haram?:
    “They ask you (O Muhammad) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit”

    So many narrations showing the companions trading and drinking alcohol, can we drink it too?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abd al-Rahman
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
    The matter is clear, as any reasonable person can see. So I will let you continue as you wish, as your words have no effect on anything. But for the benefit of those who wish to follow the straight path:

    When you read all of the Qur'an and Sunnah within context, you would know that the verse in the Qur'an which states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) completely eradicates any rationality that the hadiths means to kill someone because they left Islam. Verses 88-93 of chapter 4, particularly 91, prohibits killing anyone, the hypocrites and apostates, unless it is in self-defense from an attack by them. Verse 8:61 forbids fighting anyone who inclines to peace. Lastly, even in the very same volume of Bukhari, in volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 show that when a person came to the Muhammad and wanted to leave Islam and asked his permission, Muhammad (saw)........did nothing. And when the man walked away, Muhammad (saw).......did nothing. With all of this context, it is clear that when concerning the killing of apostate, it was ordered to do so and done so in response to apostates who waged war or conspired in war with the Muslims. Not just for simply leaving Islam.

    And Allah knows best.
    Execution is mandated by Allah and his Messenger:saw: for anyone who renounces Islam. Technically, the only way the Islamic authorities would know someone left Islam is if they publicly renounced or worked agaisnt the religion in someway, therefore kind of confirming what you are trying to say.

    Leave a comment:


  • Al-Fatihah
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Freeconferencecall. Com

    Dial in number: (712) 775-7031 If you live in the US.

    Access Code 658679 followed by the # sign.

    Just name the time you are ready to debate so we can be live at the same time. Then dial the dial in number, then the access number followed by the # sign. The LIVE recorded debate begins. I take ALL challengers.

    If you do not live in the US, let me know what country because different countries have different dial in numbers.

    Leave a comment:


  • abufulaans
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
    You may proceed with your drivel as you like now.
    Don't run away, I explained that the verses and Hadith you gave have been abrogated just like alcohol, was originally ok
    Can't you refute me now?

    Leave a comment:


  • Al-Fatihah
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    You may proceed with your drivel as you like now.

    Leave a comment:


  • abufulaans
    replied
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
    The matter is clear, as any reasonable person can see. So I will let you continue as you wish, as your words have no effect on anything. But for the benefit of those who wish to follow the straight path:

    When you read all of the Qur'an and Sunnah within context, you would know that the verse in the Qur'an which states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) completely eradicates any rationality that the hadiths means to kill someone because they left Islam. Verses 88-93 of chapter 4, particularly 91, prohibits killing anyone, the hypocrites and apostates, unless it is in self-defense from an attack by them. Lastly, even in the very same volume of Bukhari, in volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 show that when a person came to the Muhammad and wanted to leave Islam and asked his permission, Muhammad (saw)........did nothing. And when the man walked away, Muhammad (saw).......did nothing. With all of this context, it is clear that when concerning the killing of apostate, it was ordered to do so and done so in response to apostates who waged war or conspired in war with the Muslims. Not just for simply leaving Islam.

    And Allah knows best.
    As I explained before the apostate who leaves Islam has declared war on Islam by leaving it after being a follower of the religion of Truth, if the one who commits treason deserves death then what about the one who leaves the Religion of Allah after willingly accepting it as the truth? Or is religion not important to you?

    The Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم said: ''Whoever changes his religion, Kill him''
    This is clearly referring to a Muslim who becomes an apostate because when he enters Islam the Islamic Rules apply to him,

    Also do remember the religion was completed over 23 years, the law of apostasy came closer to the end and is mentioned clearly in the above Hadith, if you mention something before this then it holds no weight just as if you mention a hadith where women did not observe Hijab as the Hijab obligation too was revealed later in madinah, or a hadith where the companions RA held or drank alcohol (without sin) because alcohol was banned later

    Leave a comment:

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