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  • #61
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
    Firstly BRING THAT HADITH, bring the whole narration because I cannot find it, I asked you before aswell

    As I explained before the apostate who leaves Islam has declared war on Islam by leaving it after being a follower of the religion of Truth, if the one who commits treason deserves death then what about the one who leaves the Religion of Allah after willingly accepting it as the truth? Or is religion not important to you?

    The Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم said: ''Whoever changes his religion, Kill him''
    This is clearly referring to a Muslim who becomes an apostate because when he enters Islam the Islamic Rules apply to him,

    Also do remember the religion was completed over 23 years, the law of apostasy came closer to the end and is mentioned clearly in the above Hadith, if you mention something before this then it holds no weight just as if you mention a hadith where women did not observe Hijab as the Hijab obligation too was revealed later in madinah, or a hadith where the companions RA held or drank alcohol (without sin)
    Response: The hadiths as well as the texts of the Qur'an show that apostates are to be killed only if they attack or conspire to attack the Muslims as explained in post 24.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Question about the apostasy law

      Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
      No evidence from the Sunnah eh? Lol

      قال النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم
      من بدل دينه فاقتلوه
      Response: The evidence is clear. Denial is not a valid rebuttal.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Question about the apostasy law

        Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
        You lack any knowledge and and critical thinking and lack any humility to accept the errors in your speech and interpretations.
        Pot calling the Kettle black,a clear a case if i ever saw it.


        So your opinions are to be rejected. The fact that apostates are to only be killed if they conspire to or attack the Muslims has been proven from Qur'an and Sunnah as proven in post 24.
        If you say so.

        Its a great pity. I used to hang with a good friend in a chatroom that teaches Logic at a University. I'd have really liked to have shown him past topics, and see what he made of your apparently logical arguments and rejecting everything others say as not being logical.
        Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

        How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

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        • #64
          Re: Question about the apostasy law

          Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
          Response: The evidence is clear. Denial is not a valid rebuttal.
          Your the one denying the clear hadith of the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم
          'Whoever changes his religion, kill him''
          Do you reject this hadith because it doesn't fit in with your whims and desires?

          Don't be like the people of the book:
          ''Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).''
          2:75
          ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Question about the apostasy law

            Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
            Your the one denying the clear hadith of the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم
            'Whoever changes his religion, kill him''
            Do you reject this hadith because it doesn't fit in with your whims and desires?

            Don't be like the people of the book:
            ''Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).''
            2:75
            Response: The hadith is only proof that apostates are to be killed only if they attack or conspire to attack the Muslims as proven by the context of the Qur'an not to fight those who are peaceful (8:61), the command not to fight the apostates in verse 4:91 of the Qur'an, and the hadith found in Bukhari volume 9 book 89 number 318 in which the Prophet did nothing to an Apostate. So the context proves my point. while your false interpolation to satisfy your whims and desires is to be rejected.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Question about the apostasy law

              Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
              Response: The evidence is clear. Denial is not a valid rebuttal.
              At least we do not have to resort to inventing explanations when the evidence is clear as day. The narration regarding the Jew was clear as day, you added the other explanation in for which there was no evidence. Which also reminds me of an older topic about you claiming there was no punishment for neglecting salah, when i did bring a narration about a man that was punished in the grave for memorizing Quran and forgetting it, and not praying the obligatory salah,you came up with equally baseless claim that was no where to be found.

              The hadith you quote where the Prophet :saw: supposedly allowed a person to cancel his pledge and apostate and leave without consequences, is not so clear. The majority of scholars of hadith understood that to be a case of him canceling a pledge to live in Madinah, not canceling his pledge of Islam because there is simply no chance of any Prophet of Allah would allow such a thing, and remain silent about it. Which Prophet would allow a person to leave the truth after he accepted it and at least not attempt to clear any doubts or enquire why or something to that affect?

              And lastly, accusing people of taqleed, and lacking critical thinking skills is not a valid rebuttal either.
              Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

              How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

              Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

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              • #67
                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                Response: The hadith is only proof that apostates are to be killed only if they attack or conspire to attack the Muslims as proven by the context of the Qur'an not to fight those who are peaceful (8:61), the command not to fight the apostates in verse 4:91 of the Qur'an, and the hadith found in Bukhari volume 9 book 89 number 318 in which the Prophet did nothing to an Apostate. So the context proves my point. while your false interpolation to satisfy your whims and desires is to be rejected.
                8:61 has nothing to do with this topic at all. Only you are applying it to it.
                This refers to those disbelievers at war with the Muslims i.e the Mushriks of Mecca for example, if they incline to peace, then the Prophet :saw: should do so, and hence why the treaty of Hudaibiya eventually happened.
                Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

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                • #68
                  Re: Question about the apostasy law

                  Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                  At least we do not have to resort to inventing explanations when the evidence is clear as day. The narration regarding the Jew was clear as day, you added the other explanation in for which there was no evidence. Which also reminds me of an older topic about you claiming there was no punishment for neglecting salah, when i did bring a narration about a man that was punished in the grave for memorizing Quran and forgetting it, and not praying the obligatory salah,you came up with equally baseless claim that was no where to be found.

                  The hadith you quote where the Prophet :saw: supposedly allowed a person to cancel his pledge and apostate and leave without consequences, is not so clear. The majority of scholars of hadith understood that to be a case of him canceling a pledge to live in Madinah, not canceling his pledge of Islam because there is simply no chance of any Prophet of Allah would allow such a thing, and remain silent about it. Which Prophet would allow a person to leave the truth after he accepted it and at least not attempt to clear any doubts or enquire why or something to that affect?

                  And lastly, accusing people of taqleed, and lacking critical thinking skills is not a valid rebuttal either.
                  Response: The narration of the Jew is clear. That is he was killed because he conspired to war against the Muslims. Not because he left Islam. The hadith in Bukhari shows you are not to be killed just for leaving Islam. You practice taqleed and ignore the evidence to satisfy your own desires.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Question about the apostasy law

                    Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                    Response: The hadith is only proof that apostates are to be killed only if they attack or conspire to attack the Muslims as proven by the context of the Qur'an not to fight those who are peaceful (8:61), the command not to fight the apostates in verse 4:91 of the Qur'an, and the hadith found in Bukhari volume 9 book 89 number 318 in which the Prophet did nothing to an Apostate. So the context proves my point. while your false interpolation to satisfy your whims and desires is to be rejected.

                    D tell us in that narration where exactly did this person cancel his pledge of Islam? Such a thing is not mentioned at all. He made a pledge to by in Madinah with the Prophet :saw:, he felt sick so he wanted to back out of it. I don't see in what possible way that equates to him leaving Islam because he couldn';t cope with the environment of Madinah. It is not possible that a person apostates right in front of a Prophet of Allah , and he remain silent and say nothing about it other than what he did.
                    Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                    How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                    Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

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                    • #70
                      Re: Question about the apostasy law

                      Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                      8:61 has nothing to do with this topic at all. Only you are applying it to it.
                      This refers to those disbelievers at war with the Muslims i.e the Mushriks of Mecca for example, if they incline to peace, then the Prophet :saw: should do so, and hence why the treaty of Hudaibiya eventually happened.
                      Response: 8:61 is part of the Qur'an concerning fighting, thus it is part of the topic. Your application of taqleed does not make it otherwise.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Question about the apostasy law

                        Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                        D tell us in that narration where exactly did this person cancel his pledge of Islam? Such a thing is not mentioned at all. He made a pledge to by in Madinah with the Prophet :saw:, he felt sick so he wanted to back out of it. I don't see in what possible way that equates to him leaving Islam because he couldn';t cope with the environment of Madinah. It is not possible that a person apostates right in front of a Prophet of Allah , and he remain silent and say nothing about it other than what he did.
                        Response: He made a pledge to embrace Islam and became an apostate. The Prophet did nothing to him, thus supporting the fact that apostates are not to be killed unless they conspire or attack the Muslims.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Question about the apostasy law

                          Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                          Response: The narration of the Jew is clear. That is he was killed because he conspired to war against the Muslims. Not because he left Islam. The hadith in Bukhari shows you are not to be killed just for leaving Islam. You practice taqleed and ignore the evidence to satisfy your own desires.
                          Lets post the narration for everyone and let them read for themselves in that text, where any of what you say is in there.

                          Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:Narrated Abu Burda:
                          Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion).

                          Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

                          Where in that text does it state, he conspired to war against the Muslims and not because he left Islam, because that big bold red text which is the answer Abu Musa [May Allah be pleased with him] speaks for itself.
                          Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                          How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                          Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

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                          • #73
                            Re: Question about the apostasy law

                            Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                            Lets post the narration for everyone and let them read for themselves in that text, where any of what you say is in there.

                            Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:Narrated Abu Burda:
                            Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion).

                            Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

                            Where in that text does it state, he conspired to war against the Muslims and not because he left Islam, because that big bold red text which is the answer Abu Musa [May Allah be pleased with him] speaks for itself.
                            Response: Verse 8: 61 says do not fight those who incline to peace. Verse 4:91 says not to kill the apostates who enter into treaty and have not fought you.

                            So the Qur'an makes it clear not to fight and kill one who does not fight you. Thus the hadith according to context means that the Jew conspired to war. The evidence is clear, as it is backed by the Qur'an itself.

                            Yet when we apply the principles of taqleed as evidence as you do, you claim the hadith allows killing someone that does not fight anyone. Quote from the hadith where is says it is okay to kill a peaceful person? You cannot.
                            So my position that you cannot kill a peaceful person was backed by a verse saying the same thing. Whereas your claim that you CAN kill a peaceful person is backed by....nothing. Thus your opinion is rejected.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Question about the apostasy law

                              Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                              Response: The hadith is only proof that apostates are to be killed only if they attack or conspire to attack the Muslims as proven by the context of the Qur'an not to fight those who are peaceful (8:61), the command not to fight the apostates in verse 4:91 of the Qur'an, and the hadith found in Bukhari volume 9 book 89 number 318 in which the Prophet did nothing to an Apostate. So the context proves my point. while your false interpolation to satisfy your whims and desires is to be rejected.
                              Response:As I explained before the apostate who leaves Islam has declared war on Islam by leaving it after being a follower of the religion of Truth, if the one who commits treason deserves death then what about the one who leaves the Religion of Allah after willingly accepting it as the truth? Or is religion not important to you?

                              The Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم said: ''Whoever changes his religion, Kill him''
                              This is clearly referring to a Muslim who becomes an apostate because when he enters Islam the Islamic Rules apply to him,

                              Also do remember the religion was completed over 23 years, the law of apostasy came closer to the end and is mentioned clearly in the above Hadith, if you mention something before this then it holds no weight just as if you mention a hadith where women did not observe Hijab as the Hijab obligation too was revealed later in madinah, or a hadith where the companions RA held or drank alcohol (without sin)
                              ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                                Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                                Response: The narration of the Jew is clear. That is he was killed because he conspired to war against the Muslims. Not because he left Islam. The hadith in Bukhari shows you are not to be killed just for leaving Islam. You practice taqleed and ignore the evidence to satisfy your own desires.
                                There was no punishment for apostasy in the early stages, just like there was no Hijab, no zakah, Alcohol was not Haram,
                                I brought you a hadith which the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم said later, saying to kill whoever leaves his religion and you reject it following your desires
                                ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                                Comment

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