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  • #46
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
    I know my own flaws, do you understand your own? D you have the humility to accept your understanding could be flawed? That you could be wrong and the 99.9% of the scholars of this Ummah are right?

    And this is the last time i'm saying it. I'm not a blind follower. I read the evidence for myself, i came to that conclusion, just because you do not agree with it does not give you the right to slander me and accuse me of being a blind follower that follows any of the popular views just because the majority say so.

    I'm done with this topic. I've said my piece.
    Have a nice day.

    :salams
    Response: You practice taqleed, thus your interpretations are to be rejected. Apostates are not to be killed unless they conspire to or attack the Muslims as explained in post 24.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Question about the apostasy law

      Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
      No scholar ever claimed they were infallible. Yet when you have 99.9% of the scholars, which constitutes Ijmaa all agreeing upon the evidence at hand, of which there is clear and plentiful from the Prophet :saw: and the sahaba, then you do have to follow it.

      You reject everything other people say, you don't accept the authority or expertise of any of the scholars of this Ummah, and go along with your own views, contrary to what has been agreed upon by all the scholars unanimously and as such think your logic and reasoning is better than theirs, and you understood something in a manner none of them ever did.

      You obviously won't accept the notion your understanding could be flawed and incorrect, but since you do not accept the views of other human beings, there isn't really any point debating the matter, when the only opinion your value are your own.

      My narration regarding Muadh Ibn Jabal and the jew speaks for itself. Anything you say cannot be found in the narration at all, as well as the narration from the Muwatta of Imam Malik on the apostasy issue with Umar [May Allah be pleased with him]
      Response: The Imams you yourself refer to, I just quoted them and they said DO NOT follow them. This is another example of you practicing taqleed, as your own authorities that you praise said not to blindly follow them and go where the evidence shows. Yet you still blindly follow. This is taqleed, so your opinions are to be rejected.

      Learn to humble yourself and allow the evidence to show. Not blindly follow. I am far from a layman in this field of knowledge and comparative study.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Question about the apostasy law

        I dont really want to argue but even if such a law is in place, it wont stop the negative effect of apostasy. The apostates will just be silent on the matter while making blogs, etc to create even more apostates. They would carry out their works underground.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Question about the apostasy law

          Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
          Yet when you read all of the Qur'an and Sunnah within context, you would know that the verse in the Qur'an which states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) completely eradicates any rationality that the hadiths means to kill someone because they left Islam. Verses 88-93 of chapter 4, particularly 91, prohibits killing anyone, the hypocrites and apostates, unless it is in self-defense from an attack by them. Lastly, even in the very same volume of Bukhari, in volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 show that when a person came to the Muhammad and wanted to leave Islam and asked his permission, Muhammad (saw)........did nothing. And when the man walked away, Muhammad (saw).......did nothing. With all of this context, it is clear that when concerning the killing of apostate, it was ordered to do so and done so in response to apostates who waged war or conspired in war with the Muslims. Not just for simply leaving Islam
          Response:
          The verse of 'No compulsion in religion' is clearly referring to entering into Islam, once someone becomes a Muslim then the laws of Islam Apply, and one of them he cannot leave Islam after that, if he does he must face the sword, there is no force here as he chose to enter willingly

          Bring the Hadith of the man who wanted to leave Islam in front of the Prophet The full narration ...
          ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Question about the apostasy law

            Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
            Response: The narration of the Jew, as explained in post 24, was a hypocrite who was jumping in and out of the religion to spy on the Muslims and use what his knowledge of the Muslims against them in war. I showed you verses 4:88-93 in which Muslims were faced with this issue and killed them EXCEPT those who made a peace treaty and did not fight them. Then showed you a hadith from Bukhari in which an apostate was not harmed. So the evidence is clear, yet you reject it all to practice taqleed. So your interpretation is invalid.
            There can be no peace treaty with apostates, bring your evidence if there can be
            The verse you brought is rendering to original Kuffar who have a treaty with Muslims
            Anyway the verses of Defensive Jihad got abrogated by Later verses of Offensive
            ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Question about the apostasy law

              Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
              Response: You practice taqleed, thus your interpretations are to be rejected. Apostates are not to be killed unless they conspire to or attack the Muslims as explained in post 24.
              Wrong, you blindly follow your desires, twisting clear Verses and Hadith to suit you whims and desires just like the Jews and Christians did before
              ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                Response: The Imams you yourself refer to, I just quoted them and they said DO NOT follow them. This is another example of you practicing taqleed, as your own authorities that you praise said not to blindly follow them and go where the evidence shows. Yet you still blindly follow. This is taqleed, so your opinions are to be rejected.

                Learn to humble yourself and allow the evidence to show. Not blindly follow. I am far from a layman in this field of knowledge and comparative study.
                You have very weak knowledge if you don't even know other verses abrogated verses of Defensive Jihad
                ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Question about the apostasy law

                  Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
                  Response:
                  The verse of 'No compulsion in religion' is clearly referring to entering into Islam, once someone becomes a Muslim then the laws of Islam Apply, and one of them he cannot leave Islam after that, if he does he must face the sword, there is no force here as he chose to enter willingly

                  Bring the Hadith of the man who wanted to leave Islam in front of the Prophet The full narration ...
                  Response: They can leave as they like and are not to be harmed unless they conspire to or attack Muslims as the Qur'an is clear that it is forbidden to fight those who incline to peace (8:61), verse 4:91 in which the Apostates and hypocrites are free from being attacked if they do not fight you, and the clear hadith in Bukhari volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 that show that when a person came to the Muhammad (saw) and wanted to leave Islam and asked his permission, Muhammad (saw)........did nothing. And when the man walked away, Muhammad (saw).......did nothing. With all of this context, it is clear that when concerning the killing of apostate, it was ordered to do so and done so in response to apostates who attacked or conspired to attack the Muslims.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Question about the apostasy law

                    Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
                    Wrong, you blindly follow your desires, twisting clear Verses and Hadith to suit you whims and desires just like the Jews and Christians did before
                    Response: Wrong. You blindly follow the false interpolations which cannot be supported by anything from Qur'an or Sunnah.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Question about the apostasy law

                      Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                      Response: The Imams you yourself refer to, I just quoted them and they said DO NOT follow them. This is another example of you practicing taqleed, as your own authorities that you praise said not to blindly follow them and go where the evidence shows. Yet you still blindly follow. This is taqleed, so your opinions are to be rejected.

                      Learn to humble yourself and allow the evidence to show. Not blindly follow. I am far from a layman in this field of knowledge and comparative study.
                      You are very much a lay person, as you've proven on every occasion. You pick and choose which evidence is convenient for you, reject hadith outright if they contradict your logic, regardless of the fact they were deemed authentic.

                      You have no proof i'm blindly following. You seem to think you alone possess the faculty for logic and reason, and you alone studying the evidence came to the 1 and only correct conclusion and if anyone reaches a conclusion other than the 1 you've come to, it means they are blind followers and anything they say should be rejected because they are doing taqleed,.

                      You do not follow any established methodology when it comes to any field of Islamic knowledge. You invent meanings into narrations when no such thing has been said, as case in point regarding the Jew, that left Islam, you made claims which are no where to be found in that narration.


                      I am fully aware of the narration you refer to in which the Prophet :saw: supposedly allowed an apostate to go free, yet i've read enough narrations plus the actions of the sahaba during the khilafah to see there what the actual ruling is and how they implemented it, and that there is some reasonable explanation for that narration, which i've not had the chance to find as of yet.

                      I follow the strongest opinion based on the facts, as do all the scholars of this Ummah,people that matter, those that have knowledge and understanding all agree upon this ruling. So unless you think you somehow understood the evidences better than 99.9% of the scholars of this Ummah, your opinion counts for nothing, it is rejected.

                      You don't accept Islamic scholarship, you clearly have no respect for any of the branches of knowledge, their principles, you follow a religion based on your own understanding, and as per what you have said, all human beings are fallible, including you, yet when the vast majority all agree upon a single ruling, then you can take it to the bank that the ruling is the right one, even if said people are fallible human beings, unless clear compelling evidence points to the contrary.
                      Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                      How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                      Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Question about the apostasy law

                        Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                        Response: Wrong. You blindly follow the false interpolations which cannot be supported by anything from Qur'an or Sunnah.
                        I guess that puts us all in good company with the 99.9% of scholars of this Ummah including the sahaba and tabieen that follow false interpolations, then doesn't it?
                        Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                        How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                        Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Question about the apostasy law

                          Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                          Response: They can leave as they like and are not to be harmed unless they conspire to or attack Muslims as the Qur'an is clear that it is forbidden to fight those who incline to peace (8:61), verse 4:91 in which the Apostates and hypocrites are free from being attacked if they do not fight you, and the clear hadith in Bukhari volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 that show that when a person came to the Muhammad (saw) and wanted to leave Islam and asked his permission, Muhammad (saw)........did nothing. And when the man walked away, Muhammad (saw).......did nothing. With all of this context, it is clear that when concerning the killing of apostate, it was ordered to do so and done so in response to apostates who attacked or conspired to attack the Muslims.
                          Firstly BRING THAT HADITH, bring the whole narration because I cannot find it, I asked you before aswell

                          As I explained before the apostate who leaves Islam has declared war on Islam by leaving it after being a follower of the religion of Truth, if the one who commits treason deserves death then what about the one who leaves the Religion of Allah after willingly accepting it as the truth? Or is religion not important to you?

                          The Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم said: ''Whoever changes his religion, Kill him''
                          This is clearly referring to a Muslim who becomes an apostate because when he enters Islam the Islamic Rules apply to him,

                          Also do remember the religion was completed over 23 years, the law of apostasy came closer to the end and is mentioned clearly in the above Hadith, if you mention something before this then it holds no weight just as if you mention a hadith where women did not observe Hijab as the Hijab obligation too was revealed later in madinah, or a hadith where the companions RA held or drank alcohol (without sin)
                          ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Question about the apostasy law

                            You are very much a lay person, as you've proven on every occasion. You pick and choose which evidence is convenient for you, reject hadith outright if they contradict your logic, regardless of the fact they were deemed authentic.

                            You have no proof i'm blindly following. You seem to think you alone possess the faculty for logic and reason, and you alone studying the evidence came to the 1 and only correct conclusion and if anyone reaches a conclusion other than the 1 you've come to, it means they are blind followers and anything they say should be rejected because they are doing taqleed,.

                            You do not follow any established methodology when it comes to any field of Islamic knowledge. You invent meanings into narrations when no such thing has been said, as case in point regarding the Jew, that left Islam, you made claims which are no where to be found in that narration.


                            I am fully aware of the narration you refer to in which the Prophet :saw: supposedly allowed an apostate to go free, yet i've read enough narrations plus the actions of the sahaba during the khilafah to see there what the actual ruling is and how they implemented it, and that there is some reasonable explanation for that narration, which i've not had the chance to find as of yet.

                            I follow the strongest opinion based on the facts, as do all the scholars of this Ummah,people that matter, those that have knowledge and understanding all agree upon this ruling. So unless you think you somehow understood the evidences better than 99.9% of the scholars of this Ummah, your opinion counts for nothing, it is rejected.

                            You don't accept Islamic scholarship, you clearly have no respect for any of the branches of knowledge, their principles, you follow a religion based on your own understanding, and as per what you have said, all human beings are fallible, including you, yet when the vast majority all agree upon a single ruling, then you can take it to the bank that the ruling is the right one, even if said people are fallible human beings, unless clear compelling evidence points to the contrary.
                            Response: You practice the principles of taqleed. You lack any knowledge and and critical thinking and lack any humility to accept the errors in your speech and interpretations. So your opinions are to be rejected. The fact that apostates are to only be killed if they conspire to or attack the Muslims has been proven from Qur'an and Sunnah as proven in post 24.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Question about the apostasy law

                              Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                              I guess that puts us all in good company with the 99.9% of scholars of this Ummah including the sahaba and tabieen that follow false interpolations, then doesn't it?
                              Response: Taqleed is the basis of such a statement, Thus it is to be rejected.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                                Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                                Response: Wrong. You blindly follow the false interpolations which cannot be supported by anything from Qur'an or Sunnah.
                                No evidence from the Sunnah eh? Lol

                                قال النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم
                                من بدل دينه فاقتلوه
                                ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

                                Comment

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