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  • #31
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
    And its not logical according to who exactly? You? What makes your opinion worth taking note of compared to the sahaba, students of the sahaba, or the students of the tabieen or the 4 Imams, all of whom agreed upon this ruling?
    You saying it is not logical does not make it illogical. Your understanding is flawed. You do not specialize in any of these fields at all, not in the arabic language, not in hadith, not in tafsir, nor do you have access to the vast amounts of other texts which show how the sahaba implemented the shariah during the khilafah, Therefore you are in no position to say all these scholars are wrong and what they say is illogical based on your own ignorance, and because you can read a translation of hadith or Quran.



    Again with the accusations of following popular opinions, as if 1 follows these views because its a popularity contest and not because it is the strongest view, based on the evidences, and based on the actions of the sahaba who understood these verses better than you or me, and yet implemented the ruling in spite of the so called criteria you are claiming.

    The narration is authentic according to the all scholars of hadith that agree it meets every single criteria there is for it to be authentic, and it can be traced directly backed to the sahaba.




    The reason given is as clear as day. He was jew that accepted Islam, and then returned to Judaism, and Mu'adh [May Allah be pleased with him] ordered the hadd be carried out and refused to un-mount until it was carried out according to what Allah & his Messenger :saw: have said. There are no additional criteria made, no other reasons stated, anything other than are your own words and not in the narration and have no basis at all.

    And that verse you quote has nothing to do with the argument regarding apostasy. The context is all wrong.
    Response: This understanding is based on the practice of taqleed. So it is not evidence. Islam is based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and as explained in post 24, killing apostates is only for those who conspire to or attack Muslims.

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    • #32
      Re: Question about the apostasy law

      Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
      These interpretations have nothing to do with wahhabis/salafis. It is the view of all the sahaba, the tabieen, the 4 Madhabs and all the scholars that follow those madhabs, and that is because the evidence regarding it is as clear as day and the strongest.

      1 lone person 1400 years later that reads a translation of Quran or hadith and thinks his logic nullfies the arguments of what they've said changes nothing.
      Response: It is the view you gathered by practicing taqleed, which is not Islam. The correct position is in post 24.

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      • #33
        Re: Question about the apostasy law

        From the Muwatta of Imam Malik [May Allah have mercy on him], Book 36 - Judgements.

        Hadith no: 15 Narrated / Authority of: Zayd ibn Aslam
        Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "If someone changes his deen, strike his neck!" The meaning of the statement of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in our opinion and Allah knows best, is that "if someone changes his deen, strike his neck!" refers to those who leave Islam for other than it - like the heretics and their like, about whom it is known. They are killed without being called to tawba because their tawba is not recognised. They were hiding their kufr and publishing their Islam, so I do not think that one calls such people to tawba, and one does not accept their word. As for the one who goes out of Islam to something else and divulges it, one calls him to tawba. If he does not turn in tawba, he is killed. If there are people in that situation, I think that one should call them to Islam and call them to tawba. If they turn in tawba, that is accepted from them. If they do not turn in tawba, they are killed. That does not refer as we see it, and Allah knows best, to those who come out of Judaism to Christianity or from Christianity to Judaism, nor to someone who changes his deen from the various forms of deen except for Islam. Whoever comes out of Islam to other than it and divulges that, that is the one who is referred to, and Allah knows best!


        Hadith no: 16

        Narrated / Authority of:
        Malik related to me from Abd ar-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abd al-Qari that his father said, "A man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab from Abu Musa al-Ashari. Umar asked after various people, and he informed him. Then Umar inquired, 'Do you have any recent news?' He said, 'Yes. A man has become a kafir after his Islam.' Umar asked, 'What have you done with him?' He said, 'We let him approach and struck off his head.' Umar said, 'Didn't you imprison him for three days and feed him a loaf of bread every day and call on him to tawba that he might turn in tawba and return to the command of Allah?' Then Umar said, 'O Allah! I was not present and I did not order it and I am not pleased since it has come to me!' "


        From this narration we see how the ruling was implemented by Umar Ibn Al Khattab [may Allah be pleased with him]. They are given 3 days. After which the ruling is implemented.
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        • #34
          Re: Question about the apostasy law

          Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
          Response: This understanding is based on the practice of taqleed. So it is not evidence. Islam is based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and as explained in post 24, killing apostates is only for those who conspire to or attack Muslims.
          Taqleed is irrelevant to this discussion. You are the one making the accusation,

          All the evidence is based on the Quran and Sunnah. The sahaba understood the Quran & the sunnah of the Prophet :saw: better than you. The tabieen who studied from the sahaba, understand it better than you, the taba'tabieen understand the Quran and Sunnah better than you. They were all alive during the Khilafah, at the time of the sahaba and they saw how the shariah was implemented, some were in a position to implement it because of their positions. They all say 1 thing, you are claiming something entirely contradictory and then claiming their argumetns to be illogical.

          Well sorry, your claim of their verdict being illogical holds no water at all.

          You are using out of context verses of Quran and trying to apply them to situations they have nothing to do with, and i've bought clear cut statements of the sahaba, including ones when they carried out the Judgement and it doesn't line up with any claim you've been making at all.
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          • #35
            Re: Question about the apostasy law

            Scholars are fallable so quoting a scholar is not valid. Their opinion should be acknowledges only when it is proven by the Qur'an and Sunnah and within these sources, we see the killing of apostates mentioned in the hadiths refer to the hypocrites who would pretend to be Muslims just to spy on the Muslims and cause confusion, then denounce the religion and rejoin the enemies of Islam and use what they learned to attack the Muslims. These hypocrites are the one being killed in the hadiths. Verses 4:88-93 of the Qur'an, specifically verse 91, explains how these hypocrites were to be killed EXCEPT the ones who made a peace treaty or did not take up arms to fight. Not the one who just leaves Islam because they have a different belief and live life peacefully. As evident from those verses as well as the example mentioned in Bukhari,volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318, in which a man became an apostate and the Prophet did.........nothing.

            So it is clear from the sources itself that apostates are to be killed only if they conspire to war or attack the Muslims. Not just for simply leaving Islam.

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            • #36
              Re: Question about the apostasy law

              Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
              Taqleed is irrelevant to this discussion. You are the one making the accusation,

              All the evidence is based on the Quran and Sunnah. The sahaba understood the Quran & the sunnah of the Prophet :saw: better than you. The tabieen who studied from the sahaba, understand it better than you, the taba'tabieen understand the Quran and Sunnah better than you. They were all alive during the Khilafah, at the time of the sahaba and they saw how the shariah was implemented, some were in a position to implement it because of their positions. They all say 1 thing, you are claiming something entirely contradictory and then claiming their argumetns to be illogical.

              Well sorry, your claim of their verdict being illogical holds no water at all.

              You are using out of context verses of Quran and trying to apply them to situations they have nothing to do with, and i've bought clear cut statements of the sahaba, including ones when they carried out the Judgement and it doesn't line up with any claim you've been making at all.
              Response: Taqleed is your practice so it is very much relevant. You lack knowledge and understanding of all topics on Islam and follow what is popular with no evidence. this methodology is not rational nor supported by even the very scholars and sahabas you refer to, which is why your opinions should be avoided when trying to interpret them and Islam.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                Scholars are fallable so quoting a scholar is not valid. Their opinion should be acknowledges only when it is proven by the Qur'an and Sunnah and within these sources, we see the killing of apostates mentioned in the hadiths refer to the hypocrites who would pretend to be Muslims just to spy on the Muslims and cause confusion, then denounce the religion and rejoin the enemies of Islam and use what they learned to attack the Muslims. These hypocrites are the one being killed in the hadiths. Verses 4:88-93 of the Qur'an, specifically verse 91, explains how these hypocrites were to be killed EXCEPT the ones who made a peace treaty or did not take up arms to fight. Not the one who just leaves Islam because they have a different belief and live life peacefully. As evident from those verses as well as the example mentioned in Bukhari,volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318, in which a man became an apostate and the Prophet did.........nothing.

                So it is clear from the sources itself that apostates are to be killed only if they conspire to war or attack the Muslims. Not just for simply leaving Islam.
                Quoting authorities on a subject is valid. Only you claim otherwise. Only you claim that the 99.9% of the scholars that have said contrary to what you have, are wrong and you are right. Clearly you must be a hell of a lot more knowledgeable than the sahaba and the tabieen that were alive during the Khilafah and lived the reality and saw the ruling being implemented.

                And all of what you said is correct and yet the conclusion you reached is wrong. The previous narration i quoted regarding the Jew, made no such mention of any of what you said. He accepted Islam, he returned back to his religion and he was dealt with according to the shariah. And there are numerous other statements i've read in a book, in other collections during the time of the sahaba and how they carried out the punishment, and none of them mention what you are claiming. So either they implemented the ruling incorrectly, or youare wrong.

                No point discussing with a person if he rejects the entirety of Islamic Scholarship and prefers to follow his own opinions, thinking his own logic and understanding is flawless.
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                • #38
                  Re: Question about the apostasy law

                  Abu Hanifah said: “This is my opinion, but if there comes someone whose opinion is better than mine, then accept that.” Maalik said: “I am only human, I may be right or I may be wrong, so measure my words by the Qur’aan and Sunnah.” Al-Shafi’i said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh, then ignore my words. If you see well established evidence, then this is my view.” Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly, and do not follow Maalik or al-Shafi’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn as we have learned.” And he said, “Do not follow men blindly with regard to your religion, for they can never be safe from error.”*

                  As you can see, no one is obligated to follow any of the Imams and blindly accept any of their words according to the Imams themselves. Rather, what we must do is accept that which is in accordance with the truth, thus it should be based in logic and reason.

                  So your statements that we are to follow them is rejected even by them.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Question about the apostasy law

                    Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                    Response: Taqleed is your practice so it is very much relevant. You lack knowledge and understanding of all topics on Islam and follow what is popular with no evidence. this methodology is not rational nor supported by even the very scholars and sahabas you refer to, which is why your opinions should be avoided when trying to interpret them and Islam.
                    Yes, i do lack the knowledge. Which is why i studied the topic very thoroughly, read all the narrations regarding it, from the Prophet :saw:. I read all the statements of the sahaba in the time after the Prophet :saw: regarding this matter, and then that of the tabieen and those after them as well as the statements of the great Mujtahid scholars after them, and none of them were in any doubt regarding this ruling.

                    What did you understand from the evidence that none of the sahaba have understood, or those after them,. Do tell.
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                    • #40
                      Re: Question about the apostasy law

                      Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                      Quoting authorities on a subject is valid. Only you claim otherwise. Only you claim that the 99.9% of the scholars that have said contrary to what you have, are wrong and you are right. Clearly you must be a hell of a lot more knowledgeable than the sahaba and the tabieen that were alive during the Khilafah and lived the reality and saw the ruling being implemented.

                      And all of what you said is correct and yet the conclusion you reached is wrong. The previous narration i quoted regarding the Jew, made no such mention of any of what you said. He accepted Islam, he returned back to his religion and he was dealt with according to the shariah. And there are numerous other statements i've read in a book, in other collections during the time of the sahaba and how they carried out the punishment, and none of them mention what you are claiming. So either they implemented the ruling incorrectly, or youare wrong.

                      No point discussing with a person if he rejects the entirety of Islamic Scholarship and prefers to follow his own opinions, thinking his own logic and understanding is flawless.
                      Response: You do not just quote, you practice taqleed. You reject evidence and blindly follow, which is not Islam. Every scholar and Sahaba you refer to reject your practice. Thus refuting your own opinions. Whereas the position that apostates are not to be killed accept in self-defense was supported by verses from the Qur'an and Sunnah. So it is valid.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Question about the apostasy law

                        Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                        Abu Hanifah said: “This is my opinion, but if there comes someone whose opinion is better than mine, then accept that.” Maalik said: “I am only human, I may be right or I may be wrong, so measure my words by the Qur’aan and Sunnah.” Al-Shafi’i said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh, then ignore my words. If you see well established evidence, then this is my view.” Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly, and do not follow Maalik or al-Shafi’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn as we have learned.” And he said, “Do not follow men blindly with regard to your religion, for they can never be safe from error.”*

                        As you can see, no one is obligated to follow any of the Imams and blindly accept any of their words according to the Imams themselves. Rather, what we must do is accept that which is in accordance with the truth, thus it should be based in logic and reason.

                        So your statements that we are to follow them is rejected even by them.
                        No scholar ever claimed they were infallible. Yet when you have 99.9% of the scholars, which constitutes Ijmaa all agreeing upon the evidence at hand, of which there is clear and plentiful from the Prophet :saw: and the sahaba, then you do have to follow it.

                        You reject everything other people say, you don't accept the authority or expertise of any of the scholars of this Ummah, and go along with your own views, contrary to what has been agreed upon by all the scholars unanimously and as such think your logic and reasoning is better than theirs, and you understood something in a manner none of them ever did.

                        You obviously won't accept the notion your understanding could be flawed and incorrect, but since you do not accept the views of other human beings, there isn't really any point debating the matter, when the only opinion your value are your own.

                        My narration regarding Muadh Ibn Jabal and the jew speaks for itself. Anything you say cannot be found in the narration at all, as well as the narration from the Muwatta of Imam Malik on the apostasy issue with Umar [May Allah be pleased with him]
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                        • #42
                          Re: Question about the apostasy law

                          Yes, i do lack the knowledge. Which is why i studied the topic very thoroughly, read all the narrations regarding it, from the Prophet :saw:. I read all the statements of the sahaba in the time after the Prophet :saw: regarding this matter, and then that of the tabieen and those after them as well as the statements of the great Mujtahid scholars after them, and none of them were in any doubt regarding this ruling.

                          What did you understand from the evidence that none of the sahaba have understood, or those after them,. Do tell.
                          Response: You lack not only knowledge, but humility open up to the truth because you practice taqleed. And it is because of this practice that you make constant errors in giving dawah and discovering the true teachings of Islam..

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Question about the apostasy law

                            Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                            Response: You do not just quote, you practice taqleed. You reject evidence and blindly follow, which is not Islam. Every scholar and Sahaba you refer to reject your practice. Thus refuting your own opinions. Whereas the position that apostates are not to be killed accept in self-defense was supported by verses from the Qur'an and Sunnah. So it is valid.
                            Its not supported in reality. It never has been. The narration regarding the Jew had no such claim made in it, neither did any of the other clear cut statements of the Prophet :saw:, neither did any of the sahaba think like this and we have enough statments from them to this effect.

                            Those verses and narrations only support your claim if you choose to read them that way.

                            And no, i do not blindly follow anyone. I read the evidence for myself, i researched the topic and reached the conclusion that i did, and it is the same conclusion all the scholars of Islam, including the sahaba have all said.
                            I'm not a blind followe rno matter how much you claim it so, in some attempt to discredit my views, just because it is the one the majority have, or as you claim the populist view.
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                            • #44
                              Re: Question about the apostasy law

                              Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                              Response: You lack not only knowledge, but humility open up to the truth because you practice taqleed. And it is because of this practice that you make constant errors in giving dawah and discovering the true teachings of Islam..
                              I know my own flaws, do you understand your own? D you have the humility to accept your understanding could be flawed? That you could be wrong and the 99.9% of the scholars of this Ummah are right?

                              And this is the last time i'm saying it. I'm not a blind follower. I read the evidence for myself, i came to that conclusion, just because you do not agree with it does not give you the right to slander me and accuse me of being a blind follower that follows any of the popular views just because the majority say so.

                              I'm done with this topic. I've said my piece.
                              Have a nice day.

                              :salams
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                              • #45
                                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                                Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                                Its not supported in reality. It never has been. The narration regarding the Jew had no such claim made in it, neither did any of the other clear cut statements of the Prophet :saw:, neither did any of the sahaba think like this and we have enough statments from them to this effect.

                                Those verses and narrations only support your claim if you choose to read them that way.

                                And no, i do not blindly follow anyone. I read the evidence for myself, i researched the topic and reached the conclusion that i did, and it is the same conclusion all the scholars of Islam, including the sahaba have all said.
                                I'm not a blind followe rno matter how much you claim it so, in some attempt to discredit my views, just because it is the one the majority have, or as you claim the populist view.
                                Response: The narration of the Jew, as explained in post 24, was a hypocrite who was jumping in and out of the religion to spy on the Muslims and use what his knowledge of the Muslims against them in war. I showed you verses 4:88-93 in which Muslims were faced with this issue and killed them EXCEPT those who made a peace treaty and did not fight them. Then showed you a hadith from Bukhari in which an apostate was not harmed. So the evidence is clear, yet you reject it all to practice taqleed. So your interpretation is invalid.

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