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  • #16
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by WayBindow View Post
    "If you disagree, you are banned" - Ummah Forums
    Complete and utter rubbish.
    No one gets banned just because 1 disagrees.

    You do however get banned if you behave how Al Fatihah did when he got banned, and that is being rude, abusive in every single post, branding other people munafiqs as he did with me and peddling deviance. Though he'd never actually admit he even did anything wrong and probably still doesn't.

    If you got banned, its because you deserve to be banned.
    Last edited by Mikha’eel; 23-07-15, 02:18 PM.
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    • #17
      Re: Question about the apostasy law

      Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
      Complete and utter rubbish.
      No one gets banned just because 1 disagrees.

      You do however get banned if you behave how Al Fatihah did when he got banned, and that is being rude, abusive in every single post, branding other people munafiqs as he did with me and peddling deviance. Though he'd never actually admit he even did anything wrong and probably still doesn't.

      If you got banned, its because you deserve to be banned.
      Excellent answer! :up:

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      • #18
        Re: Question about the apostasy law

        As to the actual topic, before the thread was distracted by deviants, killing an apostate is only allowed against those who wage war or conspire to war against the Muslims as explained in post 2. Additionally, the law should be carries out in a Muslim state and not by a Muslim living in a non-Muslim state.

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        • #19
          Re: Question about the apostasy law

          The opinion of Mikha'eel is based on the practice of taqleed. So his opinion can rationally be avoided.

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          • #20
            Re: Question about the apostasy law

            Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
            The opinion of Mikha'eel is based on the practice of taqleed. So his opinion can rationally be avoided.
            If your views do not conform to anything that anything the sahaba or those after them did, then they are rejected, regardless of your so called logic & reasoning. I follow those that know what they are talking about, you make it up as you go along, inventing new opinions, tossing out hadith that do not conform to your logic.

            Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
            Narrated Abu Burda:
            Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion).

            Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

            .No where in that narration is anything you claimed even remotely alluded to. And no one was more knowledgeable of halal and haram in this Ummah than Muadh [May Allah be pleased with him] as per the words of the Prophet :saw:.
            Last edited by Mikha’eel; 25-07-15, 10:41 AM.
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            • #21
              Re: Question about the apostasy law

              If your views do not conform to anything that anything the sahaba or those after them did, then they are rejected, regardless of your so called logic & reasoning. I follow those that know what they are talking about, you make it up as you go along, inventing new opinions, tossing out hadith that do not conform to your logic.

              Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
              Narrated Abu Burda:
              Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion).

              Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

              .No where in that narration is anything you claimed even remotely alluded to. And no one was more knowledgeable of halal and haram in this Ummah than Muadh [May Allah be pleased with him] as per the words of the Prophet :saw:.
              Response: Scholarly opinion is to be rejected, regardless of consensus, if it is not logical. So before you attribute to a Sahaba that they have said something, you need logical proof that they said it. Your proof that a Sahaba said something is based on taqleed, which is illogical. Thus rejected. I follow truth, and follow the Sahaba because they are truthful. Whereas you follow what is popular, thus accept whatever is popular as truth, which is not Islam.

              Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

              No where does it say to kill a peaceful person in this hadith. So your interpretation is invalid. The Qur'an says:

              But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (8:61).

              So the hadith cannot refer to an apostate who was peaceful because the Qur'an clearly forbids fighting those who are peaceful. The hadith refers to an apostate who was a hypocrite and conspired to war.

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              • #22
                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                Response: Scholarly opinion is to be rejected, regardless of consensus, if it is not logical. So before you attribute to a Sahaba that they have said something, you need logical proof that they said it. Your proof that a Sahaba said something is based on taqleed, which is illogical. Thus rejected. I follow truth, and follow the Sahaba because they are truthful. Whereas you follow what is popular, thus accept whatever is popular as truth, which is not Islam.

                Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

                No where does it say to kill a peaceful person in this hadith. So your interpretation is invalid. The Qur'an says:

                But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (8:61).

                So the hadith cannot refer to an apostate who was peaceful because the Qur'an clearly forbids fighting those who are peaceful. The hadith refers to an apostate who was a hypocrite and conspired to war.

                I really do hope you are joking
                You bring a verse related to war and apply it to apostasy? Lol, and even that verse you have understood wrong, you have no idea what your talking about
                Il try to answer in a way you will understand

                A Muslim who becomes a Kafir has commited the greatest act of treason by leaving the religion of truth, just by doing this he has waged war against Islam after knowing the truth, he must either repent from this great crime or face the sword.

                A quick question, were all of the companions wrong when they all agreed to kill apostates in their khilafaat, whether they were waging war or not? For example Ali RA burned some apostates that called Him God
                ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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                • #23
                  Re: Question about the apostasy law

                  Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
                  I really do hope you are joking
                  You bring a verse related to war and apply it to apostasy? Lol, and even that verse you have understood wrong, you have no idea what your talking about
                  Il try to answer in a way you will understand

                  A Muslim who becomes a Kafir has commited the greatest act of treason by leaving the religion of truth, just by doing this he has waged war against Islam after knowing the truth, he must either repent from this great crime or face the sword.

                  A quick question, were all of the companions wrong when they all agreed to kill apostates in their khilafaat, whether they were waging war or not? For example Ali RA burned some apostates that called Him God
                  Response: So in response to verses from the Qur'an and sunnah that support my position, you bring no verse from anywhere and think your are correct. So the joke is in your response, thus refuting nothing. Apostates are not to be killed unless they conspire to war, as explained above.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Question about the apostasy law

                    Yet when you read all of the Qur'an and Sunnah within context, you would know that the verse in the Qur'an which states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) completely eradicates any rationality that the hadiths means to kill someone because they left Islam. Verses 88-93 of chapter 4, particularly 91, prohibits killing anyone, the hypocrites and apostates, unless it is in self-defense from an attack by them. Lastly, even in the very same volume of Bukhari, in volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 show that when a person came to the Muhammad and wanted to leave Islam and asked his permission, Muhammad (saw)........did nothing. And when the man walked away, Muhammad (saw).......did nothing. With all of this context, it is clear that when concerning the killing of apostate, it was ordered to do so and done so in response to apostates who waged war or conspired in war with the Muslims. Not just for simply leaving Islam

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                    • #25
                      Re: Question about the apostasy law

                      Well i have read the Quran on this quite a few times. And i have to agree with what brother Al-Fatiha said. Apostates like Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen are the ones who should be punished as per the Quran.
                      On the other hand there are some muslims who had left islam because they were given negative answers regarding some questions about islam by their imams. I wonder if such individuals also deserve punishment?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Question about the apostasy law

                        Originally posted by Spicen View Post
                        Well i have read the Quran on this quite a few times. And i have to agree with what brother Al-Fatiha said. Apostates like Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen are the ones who should be punished as per the Quran.
                        On the other hand there are some muslims who had left islam because they were given negative answers regarding some questions about islam by their imams. I wonder if such individuals also deserve punishment?
                        You are given 3 days to clear doubts. After that, the ruling is implemented..........
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                        • #27
                          Re: Question about the apostasy law

                          Originally posted by Spicen View Post
                          Well i have read the Quran on this quite a few times. And i have to agree with what brother Al-Fatiha said. Apostates like Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen are the ones who should be punished as per the Quran.
                          On the other hand there are some muslims who had left islam because they were given negative answers regarding some questions about islam by their imams. I wonder if such individuals also deserve punishment?
                          Response: Indeed. The Qur'an and sunnah is quite clear that an apostate should NOT be killed just because they leave Islam when they do not try to attack or conspire against the Muslims. The killing of apostates mentioned in the hadiths refer to the hypocrites who would pretend to be Muslims just to spy on the Muslims and cause confusion, then denounce the religion and rejoin the enemies of Islam and use what they learned to attack the Muslims. These hypocrites are the one being killed in the hadiths. Verses 4:88-93 of the Qur'an, specifically verse 91, explains how these hypocrites were to be killed EXCEPT the ones who made a peace treaty or did not take up arms to fight. Not the one who just leaves Islam because they have a different belief and live life peacefully. As evident from those verses as well as the example mentioned in Bukhari,volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318, in which a man became an apostate and the Prophet did.........nothing.

                          The Muslims here like Mikha'eel who say otherwise practice taqleed and follow the brand of interpretations started by the wahabi/Salafi movement which has been falsely adopted into shariah law within some Muslim countries. Yet the evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah does not support this position.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Question about the apostasy law

                            Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                            You are given 3 days to clear doubts. After that, the ruling is implemented..........
                            Response: According to the practices of taqleed. Not Islam.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Question about the apostasy law

                              Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                              Response: Scholarly opinion is to be rejected, regardless of consensus, if it is not logical.
                              And its not logical according to who exactly? You? What makes your opinion worth taking note of compared to the sahaba, students of the sahaba, or the students of the tabieen or the 4 Imams, all of whom agreed upon this ruling?
                              You saying it is not logical does not make it illogical. Your understanding is flawed. You do not specialize in any of these fields at all, not in the arabic language, not in hadith, not in tafsir, nor do you have access to the vast amounts of other texts which show how the sahaba implemented the shariah during the khilafah, Therefore you are in no position to say all these scholars are wrong and what they say is illogical based on your own ignorance, and because you can read a translation of hadith or Quran.


                              So before you attribute to a Sahaba that they have said something, you need logical proof that they said it. Your proof that a Sahaba said something is based on taqleed, which is illogical. Thus rejected. I follow truth, and follow the Sahaba because they are truthful. Whereas you follow what is popular, thus accept whatever is popular as truth, which is not Islam.
                              Again with the accusations of following popular opinions, as if 1 follows these views because its a popularity contest and not because it is the strongest view, based on the evidences, and based on the actions of the sahaba who understood these verses better than you or me, and yet implemented the ruling in spite of the so called criteria you are claiming.

                              The narration is authentic according to the all scholars of hadith that agree it meets every single criteria there is for it to be authentic, and it can be traced directly backed to the sahaba.


                              Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

                              No where does it say to kill a peaceful person in this hadith. So your interpretation is invalid. The Qur'an says:

                              But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (8:61).

                              So the hadith cannot refer to an apostate who was peaceful because the Qur'an clearly forbids fighting those who are peaceful. The hadith refers to an apostate who was a hypocrite and conspired to war.
                              The reason given is as clear as day. He was jew that accepted Islam, and then returned to Judaism, and Mu'adh [May Allah be pleased with him] ordered the hadd be carried out and refused to un-mount until it was carried out according to what Allah & his Messenger :saw: have said. There are no additional criteria made, no other reasons stated, anything other than are your own words and not in the narration and have no basis at all.

                              And that verse you quote has nothing to do with the argument regarding apostasy. The context is all wrong.
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                              • #30
                                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                                Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                                Response: Indeed. The Qur'an and sunnah is quite clear that an apostate should NOT be killed just because they leave Islam when they do not try to attack or conspire against the Muslims. The killing of apostates mentioned in the hadiths refer to the hypocrites who would pretend to be Muslims just to spy on the Muslims and cause confusion, then denounce the religion and rejoin the enemies of Islam and use what they learned to attack the Muslims. These hypocrites are the one being killed in the hadiths. Verses 4:88-93 of the Qur'an, specifically verse 91, explains how these hypocrites were to be killed EXCEPT the ones who made a peace treaty or did not take up arms to fight. Not the one who just leaves Islam because they have a different belief and live life peacefully. As evident from those verses as well as the example mentioned in Bukhari,volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318, in which a man became an apostate and the Prophet did.........nothing.

                                The Muslims here like Mikha'eel who say otherwise practice taqleed and follow the brand of interpretations started by the wahabi/Salafi movement which has been falsely adopted into shariah law within some Muslim countries. Yet the evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah does not support this position.
                                These interpretations have nothing to do with wahhabis/salafis. It is the view of all the sahaba, the tabieen, the 4 Madhabs and all the scholars that follow those madhabs, and that is because the evidence regarding it is as clear as day and the strongest.

                                1 lone person 1400 years later that reads a translation of Quran or hadith and thinks his logic nullfies the arguments of what they've said changes nothing.
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