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  • Question about the apostasy law

    Firstly, i understand the decision of Abu Bakr siddiq to fight the apostates that did not want to pay zakaat and they allied themselves with the false prophet musaylama kadhab. They were great danger to the muslim ummah.
    What i cant understand is few individual apostates who pose no threat to islam(by calling others to leave islam) and to the islamic government/state(not isis :P ), that they should be killed because one hadith says so.

    I looked into all verses and all hadiths. One hadith says kill whoever changes his religion.
    The other hadiths are about apostate who leaves the community and joins the enemy, these latter hadiths are in line with quran. But the first hadith(kill whoever changes his religion) contradicts quran hadiths. When i realized that, i decide to take the quran and hadiths above that hadith.
    First hadith is more general and not clear.
    In the times of prophet PBUH apostasy was linked to hirabah, that is when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community. Do we really think if a muslim becomes apostate in let say egypt, pakistan or saudi arabia , he would join american army? Or work for cia?


    I will post quran verses that gives fully freedom to enter islam and leave islam without any fear because now there is no war and the religion is well established:

    Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

    Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers

    Many verses speak about the complete freedom to believe or disbelieve. For that reason i had always difficulties with the apostasy law.

    Or am i wrong, and am i missing some important quran and hadiths?

  • #2
    Re: Question about the apostasy law

    Originally posted by Patient_Muwahid View Post
    Firstly, i understand the decision of Abu Bakr siddiq to fight the apostates that did not want to pay zakaat and they allied themselves with the false prophet musaylama kadhab. They were great danger to the muslim ummah.
    What i cant understand is few individual apostates who pose no threat to islam(by calling others to leave islam) and to the islamic government/state(not isis :P ), that they should be killed because one hadith says so.

    I looked into all verses and all hadiths. One hadith says kill whoever changes his religion.
    The other hadiths are about apostate who leaves the community and joins the enemy, these latter hadiths are in line with quran. But the first hadith(kill whoever changes his religion) contradicts quran hadiths. When i realized that, i decide to take the quran and hadiths above that hadith.
    First hadith is more general and not clear.
    In the times of prophet PBUH apostasy was linked to hirabah, that is when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community. Do we really think if a muslim becomes apostate in let say egypt, pakistan or saudi arabia , he would join american army? Or work for cia?


    I will post quran verses that gives fully freedom to enter islam and leave islam without any fear because now there is no war and the religion is well established:

    Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

    Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers

    Many verses speak about the complete freedom to believe or disbelieve. For that reason i had always difficulties with the apostasy law.

    Or am i wrong, and am i missing some important quran and hadiths?
    Response: You are correct. According to critics or those who lack understanding, the hadith which only states "kill those who change their religion" means to kill those for simply leaving Islam. So I tend to ask next, "what is wrong with their English"? Does the hadith mention the word "Islam"? No. It doesn't mention any specific religion. It's ambiguous. So to give it meaning without context is a false interpolation and not what the text means. Nor does the hadith give any reasoning to what Muhammad (saw) meant or who or what he’s referring to.

    Yet when you read all of the Qur'an and Sunnah within context, you would know that the verse in the Qur'an which states "there is no compulsion in religion" (2:256) completely eradicates any rationality that the hadiths means to kill someone because they left Islam. Verses 88-93 of chapter 4, particularly 92, prohibits killing anyone, including non-Muslims, unless it is in self-defense. Lastly, even in the very same volume of Bukhari, in volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 show that when a person came to the Muhammad and wanted to leave Islam and asked his permission, Muhammad (saw)........did nothing. And when the man walked away, Muhammad (saw).......did nothing. With all of this context, it is clear that when concerning the killing of apostate, it was ordered to do so and done so in response to apostates who waged war or conspired in war with the Muslims. Not just for simply leaving Islam.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Question about the apostasy law

      Subhanna Allah.

      After reading your posts, it appears neither one of you are qualified to revise and issue NEW RULINGS on the ruling of apostacy. Rather, it appears as if you read a few texts and, following the sentiments of the kafir societies in which you live and the secular liberal ideologies on which they are based, you chose to invent an INNOVATED ruling that apostacy is not punishable by death.

      Why is it the contract with Allah is so easily undermined by some, but the contracts with governments and corporations are maintained with almost holy devotion?
      If you revoke and cancel your "contract with a government" ie citizenship, are you allowed to remain in that country and enjoy its social benefits and security?

      If you revoke and cancel a contract with a corporation, are you allowed to continue to receive its services?

      How then can one revoke and cancel a contract with the Lord of the Worlds and expect to continue to receive all the benefits and rights from Allah which He provided from His Mercy despite all of your years and years of sins and ungratefulness?
      Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
      " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Question about the apostasy law

        lbn Mas’ud (RAA) narrated that The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

        “The blood of a Muslim who testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed lawfully, except in three cases: a married person who committed adultery, in Qisas (retaliation) for murder (life for life) and the apostate from Islam who abandons the Muslim Jama’ah (community).” Agreed upon
        Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
        " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Question about the apostasy law

          Clearly, the two posts directly above stems from a lack of critical thinking and avoiding context. It reflects the example of blindly following a certain school of thought and through lack of humility, unable to remove oneself from it.

          The Qur'an and Sunnah is clear that death to an apostate is only to one who wages war or conspires to war against Islam. Not just for simply leaving Islam, as explained in posts 1 and 2.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Question about the apostasy law

            In al Umda from Hanbali madhab, and Abi Shuja from the Shafii madhab, both recognize riddah is punished with death. Both the Maliki and Hanafi madhahib have rulings of death for apostasy, though the Hanafis have some condtions.

            The sahaba (:RA:) practiced this as well in which there are many cases wherein the khulafa rashideen performed hudud for riddah.

            There is no doubt that there are conditions that should be met before execution, such that the individual is adult, mature, sane. There are other conditions too, such as explanation and time for consideration are granted. But the commission of the command remains consistent throughout Islamic history, until the kufar took over Muslim lands and began advocating changes to the Shariah to suit their whims.

            In light of this, what are the opinions of Al Fatihah and Muwahid?
            Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
            " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Question about the apostasy law

              Truth is consistent, and what is true is supported by logic and reason. So while there are different scholarly opinions and schools of thought on the issue of apostasy, that which is supported by logic and reason is valid. Hence, a scholarly opinion must have logic to support it for it to be valid and as explained in both posts 1 and 2, the position that an apostate can be killed simply for leaving Islam is not supported by the context of the Qur'an and Sunnah. As highlighted in both posts, it is recognized that there are hadith that say to kill an apostate for leaving Islam but when we consider verses 2:256 that says there is no compulsion in religion, verses 4: 88-93 that prohibits killing unless in self-defense, and the hadiths from Bukhari found in volume 9 book 89, numbers 316 and 318 in which the Prophet did nothing to a man who wanted to leave Islam, we see from the context itself that the hadiths referring to killing apostates relate to self-defense from war or an attack. So the scholarly opinion that an apostate can be killed simply for leaving Islam is not valid.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Question about the apostasy law

                Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
                Subhanna Allah.

                After reading your posts, it appears neither one of you are qualified to revise and issue NEW RULINGS on the ruling of apostacy. Rather, it appears as if you read a few texts and, following the sentiments of the kafir societies in which you live and the secular liberal ideologies on which they are based, you chose to invent an INNOVATED ruling that apostacy is not punishable by death.

                Why is it the contract with Allah is so easily undermined by some, but the contracts with governments and corporations are maintained with almost holy devotion?
                If you revoke and cancel your "contract with a government" ie citizenship, are you allowed to remain in that country and enjoy its social benefits and security?

                If you revoke and cancel a contract with a corporation, are you allowed to continue to receive its services?

                How then can one revoke and cancel a contract with the Lord of the Worlds and expect to continue to receive all the benefits and rights from Allah which He provided from His Mercy despite all of your years and years of sins and ungratefulness?
                Assalamualaikum, Abu Kamel! :D

                Thanks for butting in before things got any worse.

                Don't worry, if any of these two members have any malicious intentions, then they are in for a drubbing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Question about the apostasy law

                  Truth conquers falsehood. So there are no worries from this end.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Question about the apostasy law

                    Originally posted by hatche View Post
                    Assalamualaikum, Abu Kamel! :D

                    Thanks for butting in before things got any worse.

                    Don't worry, if any of these two members have any malicious intentions, then they are in for a drubbing.
                    Al Fatiha already got banned at the start of ramadan for his rude and disrespectful behavior towards other members and for being a tafkiri cuz he branded me a munafiq. I wonder if that month away improved his attitude and manners or is he the same old person from before?

                    In anycase, pay no heed to his opinions. They carry no value at all. We got our religion and understanding from the sahaba that passed that knowledge down to their students and so on and so on - and they are the scholarsof this religion. and the understanding he claims is correct is not supported by anything ever said that can be directly traced by to the sahaba.

                    Just avoid debating him altogether. Its simply not worth the time.
                    Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                    How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                    Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Question about the apostasy law

                      Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
                      In al Umda from Hanbali madhab, and Abi Shuja from the Shafii madhab, both recognize riddah is punished with death. Both the Maliki and Hanafi madhahib have rulings of death for apostasy, though the Hanafis have some condtions.

                      The sahaba (:RA:) practiced this as well in which there are many cases wherein the khulafa rashideen performed hudud for riddah.

                      There is no doubt that there are conditions that should be met before execution, such that the individual is adult, mature, sane. There are other conditions too, such as explanation and time for consideration are granted. But the commission of the command remains consistent throughout Islamic history, until the kufar took over Muslim lands and began advocating changes to the Shariah to suit their whims.

                      In light of this, what are the opinions of Al Fatihah and Muwahid?

                      Don't be too hard on the topic starter, he just wants some answers..
                      Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                      How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                      Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Question about the apostasy law

                        Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
                        Truth conquers falsehood. So there are no worries from this end.
                        so you're expecting to get banned again soon
                        that would be my guess as well
                        "My servants, you who have transgressed against yourselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Truly Allah forgives all wrong actions. He is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful." (Surat az-Zumar: 53)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Question about the apostasy law

                          Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
                          so you're expecting to get banned again soon
                          that would be my guess as well
                          "If you disagree, you are banned" - Ummah Forums
                          I am surprised at the man who searches for his lost item, while he has lost his own soul and does not search for it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Question about the apostasy law

                            Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
                            so you're expecting to get banned again soon
                            that would be my guess as well
                            Response: A guess with no merit is meaningless. Especially when made in response rejecting truth.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Question about the apostasy law

                              Originally posted by WayBindow View Post
                              "If you disagree, you are banned" - Ummah Forums
                              Response: Exactly. A reflection of the Forum and some of the members within it. Not of me. MashaAllah.

                              Comment

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