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  • #31
    Re: A friend has asked this list of questions

    Originally posted by Al-Fatihah View Post
    Response: So after being exposed of showing that your logic is based on low morale, hypocrisy, and delusion, you try to defend yourself again but fail as usual.

    You say all scholars agree to your slander that the Prophet practices sex with slaves, yet your proof is "sheikh Google says so". Any person can see the sheer absurdity in such a claim, thus refuting yourself. Furthermore, facts are based on logic and reason, not what a majority says. If truth was based on majority then according to your logic, 2+2 can be 6,000, as long as the majority says so. Debunked by your own foolish logic. And since you would not accept 2+2 is 6,000 if a majority says so, yet you claim that you are right because a majority says so, that's called hypocrisy. So I didn't call you a munafiq. Your own logic did. Debunked again. Last, let's remind everyone what is the definition of a dummy. A dummy is one who lacks intellect. So when you admit to not using your own intellect but instead follow whatever the majority says, then such an approach is the definition of a dummy. Debunked again.

    So your dummy approach, filled with hypocrisy and low morale, fails as evidence. Another deluded follower is easily exposed.
    I didn't claim i am right because a majority said so. I know from having studied the seerah that the Prophet :saw: had a concubine Mariyah, and from her he had a son Ibrahim. I also know based on all i have read, that is is a practice that is allowed in Islam and it carried on after the Prophet :saw: the mere fact there is unanimous ijmaa on the matter only lends strength to my claim. logically speak there is nothing wrong with relying on expert authorities to provide support to 1s claims.

    And i posted the relevant evidences which prove my claim, and unlike before, the narrations have their full isnaad too.

    " I didn't insult you, your own logic did" , "I didn't call you munafiq, your own logic did", " I didn't slander you or insult you, your own logic slandered and insulted you" Genius level logic at work.


    You proved beyond any doubt that you are devoid of any manners, or good character that is required of a Muslim and you don't think twice about hurling insults at other Muslims you do not agree with, as has been amply demonstrated not only against me, but other members of the forum from previous topics you have participated in. I tried to remain civil in previous topics, and even that seem to rile you up to the extent you accused me of false humbleness and acting as if i was knowledgeable.






    As for the evidence, the evidence is clear that Muhammad did not practice sex with slaves as proven below:

    .

    Here i was expecting a new response and all you gave was a copy & paste of your previous post, and yet again a post filled with many claims but no evidence to support anything you've said. You talk about about logic & reason and yet you expect people to take your word for it that you are right whilst giving no evidence to substantiate any of the statements you've made. it also seems you don't even bother reading anything other people said and reject every bit of evidence the other side posts because it goes against your logic and reason. Just as you laughably claim hadith to be not authentic if they contradict your logic. Who need hadith sciences to determinate validity of hadith when we can follow your methodology of tossing out any narrations that contradict your understand and logic of some verse in Quran which you claim contradicts those narrations.



    Concerning verse 4:24, the verse refers to marriage, meaning that it is forbidden to marry another married woman unless she is a married slave whom was rightfully possessed. A slave whom is rightfully possessed in Islam was a woman who was married after being a captive. They were allowed to be married despite being already married because such marriages to their non-Muslim husbands were not proper marriages under Islam. The verse does not give permission to have sex outside of marriage, as the very next verse of the Qur'an supports this.

    In the other verse, the expression again being used is "what you rightfully possess". Many Muslims take this to mean slaves, but that is not correct. For the Qur'an clearly uses the Arabic word "amatun" when speaking of female slaves in 2:221 and 24:32, and other places. What your right hands possess or what you rightfully possess can refer to slaves, but does not literally mean slaves or female slaves. It is an expression "ma malakat aimainukum", which can refer to property, slaves and spouses. Here, it is used for spouses. Thus the verse should read that one can have sex with their spouse, that they rightfully possess. A rightful possession as explained above can be a slave, but since we are speaking of a rightful possession and sex outside of marriage is forbidden in Islam, it refers to also having sex with slaves once they are free and married.

    As for the hadiths that refer to sex with slaves, the Qur'an was revealed in intervals (25:32). This means that it was revealed piece by piece and not all at once, so there are plenty of documented events showing Muslims doing things that are not allowed in Islam only because the verses were not revealed yet to condemn them. Alcohol, for example is one of them. Such is the case when the Muslims would have sex slaves. It is not a teaching that is taught by Islam or Muhammad (saw), but that it was a practice during his time that was condemned later. Muslims were eventually ordered to free them then get married for any sexual relations to occur, as the verses of the Qur'an demonstrates

    Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
    The hypocrisy is amazing. So many claims and where is the proof.? I on 1 hand post tons of it, and yet it is rejected because you claim it is copy &paste and a dummy approach, you apparently use the completely opposite approach, make many claims, no proof, say it is based on logic and reason and provide no evidence. In case it escaped you, we are not required to accept anything you say, especially when you do not provide evidence to support claims you are making. How about you apply the same standards on yourself that you demand from others? Don't demand i or others provide (or my sources provide proof) from Ancient arabic texts that a word means musical instruments, when all you do is merely make a claim and do not back it up.


    First paragraph, claim made, no evidence to support it.

    Second paragraph. You make claims that the arabic means <insert meaning> and yet no proof at all. What is the source for your claim? You refused to accept any evidence i posted regarding musical instruments in spite of me quoting 2 famous Arab linguists that wrote 2 famous authoritative works on the arabic language which are used to this day, and not only did i quote them, i even provided a link to 1 of them's books, and you still rejected that as not being evidence.

    So again, where is the proof?

    Final Paragraph:

    No verses of Quran demonstrate this. You have made a lot of claims and no evidence.

    And as i provided in my previous post. The Prophet :saw: had a concubine called Mariyah the copt [May Allah be pleased with her]. He had a son from her called Ibrahim who died somewhere between 16-18 months old. She is not 1 of the wives of the Prophet :saw:


    Now that the forum is finally working properly again, I will be reporting you, and I will let the mods take appropriate action against you. I'm not going to tolerate being branded a munafiq by anyone.
    You have exposed yourself for the foul mouthed, arrogant, intolerant ignorant person you are with deviant beliefs.

    Frankly, i hope they ban you for good. We've got Non Muslims on this forum that have shown superior manners and character than anything you've shown since you've been here. None of your logic and reason lead you to attaining good manners or good character as was the way of the Prophet :saw: even in the face of those that disrespected him to the extent the sahaba sought permission to kill that person.
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    • #32
      Re: A friend has asked this list of questions

      I didn't claim i am right because a majority said so. I know from having studied the seerah that the Prophet :saw: had a concubine Mariyah, and from her he had a son Ibrahim. I also know based on all i have read, that is is a practice that is allowed in Islam and it carried on after the Prophet :saw: the mere fact there is unanimous ijmaa on the matter only lends strength to my claim. logically speak there is nothing wrong with relying on expert authorities to provide support to 1s claims.

      And i posted the relevant evidences which prove my claim, and unlike before, the narrations have their full isnaad too.

      " I didn't insult you, your own logic did" , "I didn't call you munafiq, your own logic did", " I didn't slander you or insult you, your own logic slandered and insulted you" Genius level logic at work.


      You proved beyond any doubt that you are devoid of any manners, or good character that is required of a Muslim and you don't think twice about hurling insults at other Muslims you do not agree with, as has been amply demonstrated not only against me, but other members of the forum from previous topics you have participated in. I tried to remain civil in previous topics, and even that seem to rile you up to the extent you accused me of false humbleness and acting as if i was knowledgeable.








      Here i was expecting a new response and all you gave was a copy & paste of your previous post, and yet again a post filled with many claims but no evidence to support anything you've said. You talk about about logic & reason and yet you expect people to take your word for it that you are right whilst giving no evidence to substantiate any of the statements you've made. it also seems you don't even bother reading anything other people said and reject every bit of evidence the other side posts because it goes against your logic and reason. Just as you laughably claim hadith to be not authentic if they contradict your logic. Who need hadith sciences to determinate validity of hadith when we can follow your methodology of tossing out any narrations that contradict your understand and logic of some verse in Quran which you claim contradicts those narrations.





      The hypocrisy is amazing. So many claims and where is the proof.? I on 1 hand post tons of it, and yet it is rejected because you claim it is copy &paste and a dummy approach, you apparently use the completely opposite approach, make many claims, no proof, say it is based on logic and reason and provide no evidence. In case it escaped you, we are not required to accept anything you say, especially when you do not provide evidence to support claims you are making. How about you apply the same standards on yourself that you demand from others? Don't demand i or others provide (or my sources provide proof) from Ancient arabic texts that a word means musical instruments, when all you do is merely make a claim and do not back it up.


      First paragraph, claim made, no evidence to support it.

      Second paragraph. You make claims that the arabic means <insert meaning> and yet no proof at all. What is the source for your claim? You refused to accept any evidence i posted regarding musical instruments in spite of me quoting 2 famous Arab linguists that wrote 2 famous authoritative works on the arabic language which are used to this day, and not only did i quote them, i even provided a link to 1 of them's books, and you still rejected that as not being evidence.

      So again, where is the proof?

      Final Paragraph:

      No verses of Quran demonstrate this. You have made a lot of claims and no evidence.

      And as i provided in my previous post. The Prophet :saw: had a concubine called Mariyah the copt [May Allah be pleased with her]. He had a son from her called Ibrahim who died somewhere between 16-18 months old. She is not 1 of the wives of the Prophet :saw:


      Now that the forum is finally working properly again, I will be reporting you, and I will let the mods take appropriate action against you. I'm not going to tolerate being branded a munafiq by anyone.
      You have exposed yourself for the foul mouthed, arrogant, intolerant ignorant person you are with deviant beliefs.

      Frankly, i hope they ban you for good. We've got Non Muslims on this forum that have shown superior manners and character than anything you've shown since you've been here. None of your logic and reason lead you to attaining good manners or good character as was the way of the Prophet :saw: even in the face of those that disrespected him to the extent the sahaba sought permission to kill that person.
      Response: Once again, we see another attempt by you to try to slander the Prophet by claiming that he practiced sex with slavery, but as usual, it fails.

      You begin with the same dummy approach by claiming the seerah is proof tat Muhammad (saw) did so, yet if asked of what proof you have the seerah is correct, your answer is "because Sheikh Google says so". When asked of how you know there is consensus by scholars and experts on the matter, you say "because sheikh Google says so". When asked how do you even know they are experts, your answer is "because sheikh Google says so". Any person can see the flaw in such logic, as nothing does not become true just because Google says so. If that were the case then using your logic, all things found on Google are true, including claims that Islam is untrue, thus refuting your flawed logic as usual. As such, your slanderous claim is invalid since it is backed by the flawed logic of "it's true because Google says so".

      Finally, you say that my evidence is invalid, yet every thing I stated is backed by verses from the Qur'an, and I quoted the reference to the verse every single time. So your rebuttal utterly fails.

      Thus the evidence is clear that the Prophet did not practice sex with slaves as proven by the fact that the expression again being used in verse 4:24 and 4:25 in the Qur'an is "what you rightfully possess". Many Muslims take this to mean slaves, but that is not correct. For the Qur'an clearly uses the Arabic word "amatun" when speaking of female slaves in 2:221 and 24:32, and other places. What your right hands possess or what you rightfully possess can refer to slaves, but does not literally mean slaves or female slaves. It is an expression "ma malakat aimainukum", which can refer to property, slaves and spouses. Here, it is used for spouses because the verse is about marriage and sex outside of marriage is prohibited (17:32). Thus the verse should read that one can have sex with their spouse that they rightfully possess. A rightful possession as explained above can be a slave, but since we are speaking of a rightful possession and sex outside of marriage is forbidden in Islam (17:32), then it also refers to having sex with slaves once they are free and married.

      Furthermore, the Qur'an was revealed in intervals (25:32). This means that it was revealed piece by piece and not all at once, so the hadiths showing Muslims doing things that are not allowed in Islam is only because the verses were not revealed yet to condemn them. Alcohol, for example is one of them. Such is the case when the Muslims would have sex slaves. It is not a teaching that is taught by Islam or Muhammad (saw) as proven above from the Qur'an verses, but that it was a practice during his time that was condemned later. Muslims were eventually ordered to free them then get married for any sexual relations to occur, as the verses above demonstrate from the Qur'an.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: A friend has asked this list of questions

        Originally posted by BroBeardy View Post
        Assalamu Alaykum.

        I was hoping someone could give brief but precise answers to this list of questions my friend asked me some time ago.

        Please note that these questions are creating doubts in his mind and since I'll be copy pasting any answer you give, make sure you write it in a tone that's appropriate and directed towards clearing doubts.

        Q1) What is the wisdom behind the permissibility of muslim men having sexual relations with slave girls even though they can fulfill their needs with their wife/wives? Can Muslim men have as many slave girls as they want? Does the man need permission of the slave girl before he approaches her or he can do it whenever he wants?

        Q2) What is the scholarly evidence that says music is impermissible?

        Q3) What was the age of Hazrat Aisha RA when Muhammad ﷺ consummated the marriage with her? If it was 9, then why isn't it wrong?

        Q4) If your answer to Q3 is that it was the norm of that time to marry at such young age, then given the scientific research of today that marrying at such a small age can have detrimental affect on the girl, why did Muhammad ﷺ proceed with the marriage? Even though it was okay to marry. it doesn't mean he should have married her at such a small age. Just like alcohol and other bad practices were stopped, this practice of marrying at a young age should also have been stopped at that point! After all, Muhammad ﷺ was sent as an example of best conduct to the mankind!

        I should remind you that today's scientific research says marrying at such a small age can negatively affect the body of the girl if she gets pregnant.



        Jazak Allah Khair.
        Walaikumasalam! :D

        I will try to solve these doubts in as best a manner as possible. :)

        A2:

        This the scholarly evidence that music is haram:

        http://islamqa.info/en/5000

        A3:

        Her age was young. The marriage or the consummation was not wrong at all. Read this to understand why:

        http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/20...isha-when.html

        The answer to Q1 has been given by some other member.

        I hope this helps. :up:

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: A friend has asked this list of questions

          Originally posted by Ikki View Post
          I'm having a hard time getting my head around some of this.

          So all female kuffars must be punished, whether they had an equal chance of hearing about islam or not? Or is it that all kuffars must be killed?
          the killing part was a reference to what their punishment from Allah should be; you know Christians say 'the punishment for sin is death', well this is like saying 'the punishment for kufr is death.

          only a POW can be taken as prisoner of war; the women and children or enemy soldiers fighting against Islam can be taken as slaves as well, so they would have received the message; they are fighting Islam because they have heard about it; the hate it and they want to destroy it!

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: A friend has asked this list of questions

            Originally posted by Nassa View Post
            the killing part was a reference to what their punishment from Allah should be; you know Christians say 'the punishment for sin is death', well this is like saying 'the punishment for kufr is death.

            only a POW can be taken as prisoner of war; the women and children or enemy soldiers fighting against Islam can be taken as slaves as well, so they would have received the message; they are fighting Islam because they have heard about it; the hate it and they want to destroy it!
            The legal application of the term "kafir" does not mean the individual has specifically been adequately informed of Islam and then openly rejected it. The only one who has a record of every individual's level of knowledge regarding Islam is Allah AWJ!


            We Muslims judge by the apparent, and that mean someone who is with the kufar and shows no signs of Islam is treated as the kufar even if they might be inclined to Islam in the future. If they are part of a people waging war against Islam, then it within the authority of the khalifah to determine how to deal with these people if they are defeated.

            In that scenario where a people have waged war against Islam and the Muslim Ummah, slavery is a safe way of assimilating women and children who pose no threat to the security of the Muslims and who can be educated and cultured in Islam.

            A concubine enjoys a status similar to marriage.


            BTW, for those who think today's world is somehow above all of this, consider that the at the end of World War II, millions of German and Axis women were raped, many gang raped. There were a recorded 11,000 rape convictions of American troops in Europe by 1945 ce. But the Russian troops were far worse, they raped as many as 2 million women and this continued from 1945 through 1948ce when Soviet commanders finally began a zero tolerance campaign against rape.
            There were many Germans born to German mothers who were raped by Soviet soldiers.



            The
            Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
            " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: A friend has asked this list of questions

              Q3)

              this is pure biology. 1400 years ago in Arabia, it was the norm of society that girls had menstruated in age 7-9 and gave birth in age 10. This is well recorded in Imam Shafi's book Al Umm and Imam Bayhaqi. They even reported that a 21-yo woman at the time had already become grandmother! How many women today become grandma in 21??

              As a consequence, the Arabians life span at the time was relatively short. Prophet died in age 63. His wives died in around age 50's. Imam Shafi, who's Quraish in origin, died only in age 52. Aisha herself died in age around 63.

              So imagine if they have to wait until they're 25 to marry... Well people need to survive from extinction anyway.

              In 1800's US still made legal marriage of 10 year olds. I read about one princess of England in 1500's who's married off in age 9. Now in Romania, some tribes married off their children in age 13. I have read this in Nat Geographic and by God, the 13 or 14 yo bride really looks like she's already 25 :-/

              Hence it should be seen that Aisha's 9 yo is not our 9 yo. In age 12, Aisha and her elder sister had been involved in warfare, healing wounded soldiers and distributing water. Keeping war logistics. We can't imagine any 12 yo in our time to handle such task. Aisha is much more mature.

              And all the heavens go their way.... And only change is here to stay...

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: A friend has asked this list of questions

                Q1)

                i encourage you to read this abour female slaves status in islam
                http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/17032

                first of all, in islam you can't just randomly snatch, manipulate, or kidnap a free woman, sell and enslave her. you can't just attack a village, massacre every civilians and took the females for slaves. in sahih bukhari there is hadith how Allah and Rasulullah will be enemy to those who enslave free people and eat their price.

                the only legit slaves in islam are those from POW. the combatants and those who aid them during battlefield. civilians are not to be enslaved.

                We must see history as well. In ancient world, the norm of war in this society that, if a tribe was involved in war, all of the womenfolk went with them to aid the combatants. Not just that -- they also dressed up and wearing make up beautifully. why?? To attract the captors. Because just in case their menfolk are killed -- the ladies can be captured by stronger men, who will provide for them. That way, they could survive and live on. Now this culture has been extinct of course.

                But islamically, the reason they're legit to capture is they are either combatants or helping combatants. That said, not all POW are instantly enslaved. it's up to ameerul mu'mineen to trade them with captured muslims from enemies side, free them with ransom or without ransom. usually slavery is the last resort.

                And all the heavens go their way.... And only change is here to stay...

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