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Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

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  • Jannah2
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Read the 2 pages on this thread and dozens of other threads in this and other sections. I don't think any shia, kharijites etc active on this forum. It's ASWJ people arguing. Do you see Ijma anywhere?

    Whatever you may call it using watered down words and excuses. I consider it a failure of the religion to unite its followers on a single school of thought. When they are done arguing with non muslims they start arguing with each other.
    ijma only pertains to the jurist scholars brother; those who are qualified to independently derive opinions from Islamic sources for only they can legitimately agree or disagree on Islamic rulings so it doesn't matter if ten thousand laymen muslims argue over something; this dont effect the ijma!

    so when we say 'there is ijma' we mean the Islamic mujtahid scholars agree on something

    Leave a comment:


  • shabbir80
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Jannah2 View Post
    ijma only pertains to the ahlus sunnah wal jamaah so other groups like Shia's kharijites, extremists fantaics etc etc, differing don't effect an ijma
    Read the 2 pages on this thread and dozens of other threads in this and other sections. I don't think any shia, kharijites etc active on this forum. It's ASWJ people arguing. Do you see Ijma anywhere? We are not talking about personal opinions and choices. Here we are talking about religious affair. The existence of a religious discussion forum is the evidence that there are differences.

    Whatever you may call it using watered down words and excuses. I consider it a failure of the religion to unite its followers on a single school of thought. When they are done arguing with non muslims they start arguing with each other.

    Leave a comment:


  • Linkdeutscher
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Of course you stopped reading there, because its proof you're not interested in anything he had to say or what the correct understanding(s) are regarding this subject matter.


    Topics like this make me wish i had applied for moderator, so i could lock these topics soon as they open. lay-people have no business discussing these topics, let alone being arrogant enough to challenge and accuse scholars who are vastly more knowledgeable than they are.
    You forgot your reality: I will act all wise and learned and in reality push my personal opinion on this matter while disregarding the opinion of others.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jannah2
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by shabbir80 View Post
    There hasn't been an Ijma (consensus) on anything for centuries. Differences (technical and polite term: Ikhtilaf) exist on almost every matter and differences create new groups and sects based on variant sets of beliefs.

    If you visit any populous Mulsim country you will find many sects based of these differences. Ask anyone about other sect and they will tell you "they are devieant because they believe that instead of that".
    ijma only pertains to the ahlus sunnah wal jamaah so other groups like Shia's kharijites, extremists fantaics etc etc, differing don't effect an ijma

    Leave a comment:


  • shabbir80
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    There hasn't been an Ijma (consensus) on anything for centuries. Differences (technical and polite term: Ikhtilaf) exist on almost every matter and differences create new groups and sects based on variant sets of beliefs.

    If you visit any populous Mulsim country you will find many sects based of these differences. Ask anyone about other sect and they will tell you "they are devieant because they believe that instead of that".

    Leave a comment:


  • Guled
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
    this is why logic cannot be applied in Islam, everyone has an opinion and they not the same, I believe Allah is above the throne and I believe in the words of the prophet (saw) and consensus of the scholars. You have to believe the words messenger (saw) is the truth if you believe in Allah. it is Allah who said, the prophet (saw) doesn't speak from his desire, rather they are revealed to him by Allah
    :salams:

    I couldn't agree more. The evidence is the quran and hadith and not our aql esp when it comes to Allah's sifaat. They don't seem to realize this fundamental error they are upon. The root of their deviation is that they have already defined god based on aristotelian logic meaning they have decided which attributes are and aren't befitting of god based upon this logic. So when they come across ayat in the quran that seem to contradict the predefined attributes that god is supposed to have they are forced to re-interpret them or make invalid tafwid ie they affirm the wording but not the meaning so when Allah says that He rose over the arsh they say: We do not know what it means or what Allah meant by it

    If you ask them what prevents Allah from being above the heavens, above the arsh they say this implies you are confining Allah to time and space meaning you are limiting Allah since the Throne and heavens are restricted entities which are created, and space is an area restricted within six dimensions. Allah Most High cannot be confined to things He has created, such as the heavens and the Throne.

    The mistake they make is that they impose the characteristics of the creation to the attributes of Allah since they can't conceive of charateristics that aren't like what we know or see. So they reject, deny the attributes of Allah thinking that if they were to affirm them as they are mentioned in the quran this would lead to tashbeeh ( likening to the creation).

    May Allah keep us steadfast and protect us

    Leave a comment:


  • Guled
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
    It still amazes me, you a lay person have the audacity to argue with scholars and accuse them of being wrong/contradicting the Prophet :saw: as if you understand better than he does or any of the great Ulema he quoted regarding what they've said.

    he cited all his sources, he unlike you knows the arabic language, and has access to that literature in its original language, and yet you accuse him of misrepresenting their positions as if you understand them better than him.

    Learn some humility and stop being arrogant. This is the problem with people now days, everyone thinks they know better than the Ulema.
    :salams:

    What amazes me the most is just how far you are willing to ignore the mistakes this scholar makes. I am not the one who wrote the following

    Based on this, it is erroneous to say that Allah Most High is ‘physically’ in the sky or above the heavens on His Throne
    It's one thing to hold the opinion of figuratively interpreting the sifaat of Allah but it's a different issue all together when one decides to call the belief of those who hold on to the apparent meanings of Allah's sifaat as erroneous.

    The prophet :saw: approved and affirmed that Allah is above the heavens, Allah has affirmed in His quran that He is above the heavens, above the arsh and i as layman affirm this as well that Allah is above the heavens, above the arsh. But according to him this is a mistaken belief to have and by saying this he's only inviting trouble why you might ask ? the reason is simple because i did not come up with this belief it was one that was revealed by Allah conveyed to us by the prophet :saw:

    Have you asked yourself why i said that he was misinterpreting the views of the salaf, 4 imams etc ? i even gave an example of this where he qoutes imam malik & imam abu hanifa but their statements actually contradict what he was trying to ascribe to them. Here is what he says at first

    1) The most precautious and mainstream position in this regard is of the early Muslims (salaf), which includes the majority of the Companions, their followers (tabi’un), the majority of hadith scholars (muhaddithun), the four main Imams and the major scholars of their schools (Allah be pleased with them all). Their view is that the outward purport of such texts is not intended, and only Allah knows the real meanings of such texts; thus they consign their meanings completely to Allah Most High without attempting to interpret them – either literally or figuratively. This is known as the position of tafwid.
    A few lines later mentions the statement of imam malik

    Mulla Ali al-Qari further states, “How fitting is the response of Imam Malik (Allah have mercy on him) when he was asked about istiwa. He said, ‘istiwa is known [i.e. we know and accept that it has been mentioned in the Qur’an, because in another narration Imam Malik said, ‘istiwa is not unknown’], the ‘how’ (kayf) is unknown [this has also been transmitted as ‘the how is not comprehensible’], asking about it is an innovation, and belief in it [i.e. accepting it to be part of revelation] is obligatory.’ This is the way of the early scholars (salaf) and the safest path, and Allah knows best.

    NOW THE CONTRADICTION

    According to this scholar he says that that the view of salaf, 4 imams etc was " that the outward purport of such texts is not intended, and only Allah knows the real meanings of such texts; thus they consign their meanings completely to Allah Most High without attempting to interpret them – either literally or figuratively.

    But the statement of imam malik completely contradicts this as imam says that isitiwaa is KNOWN but the kayf (how) is unknown. If Imam Maalik’s statement was in support of tafwid he would have never said istiwaa is known and the kayf is unknown. He wouldn’t need to specify the kayf if the meaning was also unknown (as is the case in tafwid). So imam malik affirmed not only the wording but also the meaning since he clearly stated isitawaa is known. This is the creed of the salaf and that which the 4 imams were upon .

    Basically the creed of the salaf was that they affirmed the wording and meaning but they left the knowledge of how to Allah . What is meant by meaning here is that they affirmed the apparent meanings of the attributes eg that Allah has a hand, rose above the arsh, descends to the lower heaven etc . So the salaf affirmed the attributes of Allah

    1. without Ta'teel - denying the meaning
    2. without Tahreef - distorting the meaning
    3. without Tashbeeh - likening to the creation
    4. without Takyeef - asking how?"

    Leave a comment:


  • Mohamed Mifxal
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    this is why logic cannot be applied in Islam, everyone has an opinion and they not the same, I believe Allah is above the throne and I believe in the words of the prophet (saw) and consensus of the scholars. You have to believe the words messenger (saw) is the truth if you believe in Allah. it is Allah who said, the prophet (saw) doesn't speak from his desire, rather they are revealed to him by Allah

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikha’eel
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Stopped reading there. And the reason this wasn't debated back then was because there weren't any deviants who denied Allah being above the throne, thus the issue didn't exist.

    Of course you stopped reading there, because its proof you're not interested in anything he had to say or what the correct understanding(s) are regarding this subject matter.


    Topics like this make me wish i had applied for moderator, so i could lock these topics soon as they open. lay-people have no business discussing these topics, let alone being arrogant enough to challenge and accuse scholars who are vastly more knowledgeable than they are.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikha’eel
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Guled View Post
    Why are making it out as if what i stated was from my own when i've simply used statments from the fatwa and the hadith of the slave girl to clarify clear cut contradictions in the fatwa. How is it possible for a scholar to not only contradict a saying of the prophet but also call a belief that the prophet held erroneous. What kind of a scholar is that ?

    I mean i accept my status as a layman but i would never call any statement or belief of the prophet :saw: erroneous no matter how far i lack in understanding. If i understand this despite my level what about a scholar? what forces such a person to say such things. Is such a person reliable and trustworthy ?

    Posting a fatwa that contains contradictions, incorrect statements about the sahaba, 4 imams does not bring benefit to the discussion nor does it clarify the issue at hand. Have you bothered to check what i said might be true at all ? anyways i do agree with you there is no point in continuing this discussion any further if you simply keep on posting without trying to understand the implications of the contents of that fatwa.

    It still amazes me, you a lay person have the audacity to argue with scholars and accuse them of being wrong/contradicting the Prophet :saw: as if you understand better than he does or any of the great Ulema he quoted regarding what they've said.

    he cited all his sources, he unlike you knows the arabic language, and has access to that literature in its original language, and yet you accuse him of misrepresenting their positions as if you understand them better than him.

    Learn some humility and stop being arrogant. This is the problem with people now days, everyone thinks they know better than the Ulema.

    Leave a comment:


  • bestoflights
    replied
    http://bestoflights.blogspot.com/201...l-ard.html?m=1http://bestoflights.blogspot.com/201...allah.html?m=1

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6810

    Leave a comment:


  • Linkdeutscher
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    For you and everyone elses benefit i'm posting this:


    <QUESTION>
    Some people say Allah is everywhere, some say He is above the heavens, some say He is on His throne; and everyone seems to present tons of evidences to prove their point. I am so confused about the whole issue. Where is Allah? Please explain!

    <ANSWER>
    In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

    [COLOR=#3B3B3B][FONT=Arial]The short and simple answer to your question is that Allah Most High exists
    Stopped reading there. And the reason this wasn't debated back then was because there weren't any deviants who denied Allah being above the throne, thus the issue didn't exist.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guled
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
    I remember now, that was you from the other topic, and if i recall correctly, you made it clear you were a lay-person. So therefore you aren't in any position to be challenging the views of respected Ulema of the past that are saying contrary to what you claim.

    What i posted was enough to address this topic and the 3 different views regarding it. Just give it a rest already and stop pointlessly debating a matter against scholars that understand this far better than you or me do.
    Why are making it out as if what i stated was from my own when i've simply used statments from the fatwa and the hadith of the slave girl to clarify clear cut contradictions in the fatwa. How is it possible for a scholar to not only contradict a saying of the prophet but also call a belief that the prophet held erroneous. What kind of a scholar is that ?

    I mean i accept my status as a layman but i would never call any statement or belief of the prophet :saw: erroneous no matter how far i lack in understanding. If i understand this despite my level what about a scholar? what forces such a person to say such things. Is such a person reliable and trustworthy ?

    Posting a fatwa that contains contradictions, incorrect statements about the sahaba, 4 imams does not bring benefit to the discussion nor does it clarify the issue at hand. Have you bothered to check what i said might be true at all ? anyways i do agree with you there is no point in continuing this discussion any further if you simply keep on posting without trying to understand the implications of the contents of that fatwa.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikha’eel
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    I remember now, that was you from the other topic, and if i recall correctly, you made it clear you were a lay-person. So therefore you aren't in any position to be challenging the views of respected Ulema of the past that are saying contrary to what you claim.

    What i posted was enough to address this topic and the 3 different views regarding it. Just give it a rest already and stop pointlessly debating a matter against scholars that understand this far better than you or me do.

    Leave a comment:

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