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Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

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  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by الغزالي View Post
    السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

    I don't like to discuss these topics, but anyways as there exist lots of confusion, I will add to this from the tafseer of Ibn Katheer. And there is no benefit in delving into these discussions.

    وقوله ( الرحمن على العرش استوى ) : تقدم الكلام على ذلك في سورة الأعراف ، بما أغنى عن إعادته أيضا ، وأن المسلك الأسلم في ذلك طريقة السلف ، إمرار ما جاء في ذلك من الكتاب والسنة من غير تكييف ولا تحريف ، ولا تشبيه ، ولا تعطيل ، ولا تمثيل .

    And his statement, الرحمن على العرش استوى
    The discussion has already been presented on this in Surah Al Araf, with which returning to it will satisfy. The safest way in this is the way of the predecessors. Passing through with what came in that from the Qur'an and the Sunnah without descriptive designation, distortion, anthropomorphization (ascription of human characteristics to God), denying, or likening.

    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...ano=20&ayano=5
    I believe this is what the majority of Imams believed and what Al-Qurtubi mentioned. And Allah knows best.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Abu Yusuff View Post
    where did you get that Imam maalik statement from Bro?; some people are known to take out of context or even misinterpret; for example, look at Imam Ahmads statement and see how it clearly leaves the entire meaning of the words to Allah:
    You might have missed the post where I quoted the Arabic from Tafsir Al-Qurtubi. But it is from that Tafsir. Imam Al-Qurtubi, I am sure you know, was a Maaliki and he mentions this quote along with the three opinions I paraphrased from his Tafsir as to what the people have believed regarding this, and similar, Verses.

    Imam Maalik's saying is often noted in the words

    هذا هو اللفظ المشهور : ( الاستواء معلوم والكيف مجهول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة )

    Al-'istiwaa is known and how is unknown and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.

    وهذا هو اللفظ الصحيح : ( الإستواء غير مجهول والكيف غير معقول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة )

    The correct wording, as noted by Al-Qurtubi in his Tafsir is: Al-'istiwaa is not unknown and how is not understood and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.

    In essence, when you closely examine the two, it seems they mean the same thing.

    Anway, like Ghazali said, I usually do not indulge in these discussions. But your statement about it being from the Al-Majaaz is something which caught my attention.

    Leave a comment:


  • AbuNajm
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    Before he created the universe, was he 'above' or 'below' anything? If not, then he must have created everything 'below' him, and so he himself must be contained in something, which is illogical.
    Always interesting watching the true anthropomorphists philosophizing about Allah.

    Now figure this one out through 'logic'- Allah has two Right Hands...

    Leave a comment:


  • shay5
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    physically
    this is funny quip you displayed..also you have futile minds about placement and Allah..you cannot even imagine..

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    physically
    yup physically; once I get the spanker out!

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    To say that this is a metaphorical statement would mean you are saying it is Al-Majaaz. I do not know if this is exactly what you meant. If so, could you please refer to the 'ijmaa you refer to.

    As far as my limited knowledge goes, saying that 'istawaa is Al-Majaaz was actually the thought of the al-muʿtazilah.

    Perhaps you meant to say that this is to be understood as it is without giving it any interpretation or resemblance to the creation.

    Reminds of what people often quote Imam Maalik (may Allah have mercy on him) as saying: Istiwaa is known but the manner is unknown.
    the ijma I refer to is this:

    To summarize everything I have said tonight, we have seen three ways of understanding the mutashabihat, or ‘unapparent in meaning’ verses and hadiths: tafwid, ‘consigning the knowledge of what is meant to Allah,’ ta’wil, ‘figurative interpretation within the parameters of classical Arabic usage,’ and lastly tashbih, or ‘anthropomorphic literalism.’

    We saw that the way of tafwid or ‘consigning the knowledge of what is meant to Allah,’ was the way of Shafi‘i, Ahmad, and many of the early Muslims. A second interpretive possibility, the way of ta’wil, or ‘figurative interpretation,’ was also done by the Companions (Sahaba) and many other early Muslims as reported above. In classical scholarship, both have been considered Islamic, and both seem needed, though tafwid is superior where it does not lead to confusion about Allah’s transcendence beyond the attributes of created things, in accordance with the Qur'anic verse,

    "There is nothing whatsoever like unto Him" (Qur'an 42:11).

    As for anthropomorphism, it is clear from this verse and from the entire history of the Umma, that it is not an Islamic school of thought, and never has been. In all times and places, Islam has invited non-Muslims to faith in the Incomparable Reality called Allah; not making man a god, and not making God a man.

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/littlk.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • Linkdeutscher
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Abu Yusuff View Post
    i'm old enogh to be your daddy mate! ;)
    physically

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    damn kids nowadays pulling stuff out of their own imagination
    i'm old enogh to be your daddy mate! ;)

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    To say that this is a metaphorical statement would mean you are saying it is Al-Majaaz. I do not know if this is exactly what you meant. If so, could you please refer to the 'ijmaa you refer to.

    As far as my limited knowledge goes, saying that 'istawaa is Al-Majaaz was actually the thought of the al-muʿtazilah.

    Perhaps you meant to say that this is to be understood as it is without giving it any interpretation or resemblance to the creation.

    Reminds of what people often quote Imam Maalik (may Allah have mercy on him) as saying: Istiwaa is known but the manner is unknown.
    where did you get that Imam maalik statement from Bro?; some people are known to take out of context or even misinterpret; for example, look at Imam Ahmads statement and see how it clearly leaves the entire meaning of the words to Allah:

    The real (‘aqida) of Imam Ahmad was very simple, and consisted, mainly of tafwid, that is, to consign to Allah the meaning of the mutashabihat or ‘unapparent meanings’ of the Qur'an and hadith, accepting their words as they have come without saying or claiming to know how they are meant. His position is close to that of a number of other early scholars, who would not even countenance changing the Qur'anic order of the words or substituting words imagined to be synonyms. For them, the verse in Sura Taha,

    "The All-merciful is ‘established’ (istawa) upon the Throne" (Qur'an 20:5)

    does not enable one to say that "Allah is ‘established’ upon Throne," or that "The All-merciful is upon the Throne" or anything else besides "The All-merciful is ‘established’ (istawa) upon the Throne." Full stop. Their position is exemplified by Sufyan ibn ‘Uyayna, who died 98 years after the Hijra, and who said, "The interpretation (tafsir) of everything with which Allah has described Himself in His book is to recite it and remain silent about it." It also resembles the position of Imam Shafi‘i, who simply said: "I believe in what has come from Allah as it was intended by Allah, and I believe in what has come from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) as it was intended by the Messenger of Allah."

    Imam Ahmad was asked about the hadiths mentioning "Allah’s descending," "seeing Allah," and "placing His foot on hell"; and the like, and Ahmad replied: "We believe in them and consider them true, without ‘how’ and without ‘meaning’ (bi la kayfa wa la ma‘na)."

    And he said, when they asked him about Allah’s istiwa’ [translated above as established]: "He is ‘established’ upon the Throne (istawa ‘ala al-‘Arsh) however He wills and as He wills, without any limit or any description that be made by any describer (Daf‘ shubah al-tashbih, 28).

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/littlk.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • Linkdeutscher
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Abu Yusuff View Post
    salaam there is ijma on Allah not having a direction and that Him 'Being established on the throne' is just a metaphorical statement

    the Ulema of ahlus sunnah wal jamaah have always agreed to this and it is only the salafi's that differ but this differing does not effect the ijma
    damn kids nowadays pulling stuff out of their own imagination

    Leave a comment:


  • الغزالي
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

    I don't like to discuss these topics, but anyways as there exist lots of confusion, I will add to this from the tafseer of Ibn Katheer. And there is no benefit in delving into these discussions.

    وقوله ( الرحمن على العرش استوى ) : تقدم الكلام على ذلك في سورة الأعراف ، بما أغنى عن إعادته أيضا ، وأن المسلك الأسلم في ذلك طريقة السلف ، إمرار ما جاء في ذلك من الكتاب والسنة من غير تكييف ولا تحريف ، ولا تشبيه ، ولا تعطيل ، ولا تمثيل .

    And his statement, الرحمن على العرش استوى
    The discussion has already been presented on this in Surah Al Araf, with which returning to it will satisfy. The safest way in this is the way of the predecessors. Passing through with what came in that from the Qur'an and the Sunnah without descriptive designation, distortion, anthropomorphization (ascription of human characteristics to God), denying, or likening.

    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...ano=20&ayano=5
    Last edited by الغزالي; 11-05-15, 04:07 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    And, without getting into who is right or wrong, Imam Al-Qurtubi mentions that their are three views in understanding Isitwaa

    أي ارتفع وعلا ، واستوت الشمس على رأسي واستوت الطير على قمة رأسي ، بمعنى علا . وهذه الآية من المشكلات ، والناس فيها وفيما شاكلها على ثلاثة أوجه قال بعضهم : نقرؤها ونؤمن بها ولا نفسرها ، وذهب إليه كثير من الأئمة ، وهذا كما روي عن مالك رحمه الله أن رجلا سأله عن قوله تعالى : الرحمن على العرش استوى قال مالك : الاستواء غير مجهول ، والكيف غير معقول ، والإيمان به واجب ، والسؤال عنه بدعة ، وأراك رجل سوء أخرجوه .

    وقال بعضهم : نقرؤها ونفسرها على ما يحتمله ظاهر اللغة . وهذا قول المشبهة .

    وقال بعضهم : نقرؤها ونتأولها ونحيل حملها على ظاهرها


    I am going to put up a summarized paraphrase of the above.

    One group says they will recite it, believe in it, but will not give it any Tafsir. The majority of Imaams have adopted this view. And this is what has been related from Imam Maalik (may Allah have mercy on him) that a man asked him about His Saying: الرحمن على العرش استوى. Maalik said: Al-'Istiwaa is not unknown but how is not understood and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is a innovation and I see you an evil man...

    Some have said we will recite it and give it a Tafsir based on what the apparent meaning is in the language. This is the opinion of those who give resemblance.

    And some have said we recite it, give it interpretation and turn its haml based on its apparent meaning.

    So, as far as I understand it, the majority are of the view that you recite these Verses, believe in them, but you do not do any Tafsir on them.

    Asking about these things is innovation and best avoided. Try focusing on the practical aspects which you will asked about in the next world people!

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Here is an extract from Tafsir Al-Baghawi


    ( ثم استوى على العرش ) قال الكلبي ومقاتل : استقر . وقال أبو عبيدة : صعد . وأولت المعتزلة الاستواء بالاستيلاء ، وأما أهل السنة فيقولون : الاستواء على العرش صفة لله تعالى ، بلا كيف ، يجب على الرجل الإيمان به ، ويكل العلم فيه إلى الله - عز وجل - . وسأل رجل مالك بن أنس عن قوله : ( الرحمن على العرش استوى ) طه - 5 ، كيف استوى؟ فأطرق رأسه مليا ، وعلاه [ ص: 236 ] الرحضاء ، ثم قال : الاستواء غير مجهول ، والكيف غير معقول ، والإيمان به واجب ، والسؤال عنه بدعة ، وما أظنك إلا ضالا ثم أمر به فأخرج


    Regarding the Verse: "Then He made 'istiwaa 'alaa 'arsh" Al-Kalbi and Muqaatil said it means 'istiqarra' He sat down and 'Abu 'ubaidah said it means He ascended. And as for the al-muʿtazilah they interpreted it to mean الاستيلاء meaning to make oneself master of something.

    As for the Ahl Al-Sunnah then they say: Istiwaa over the Throne is a characteristic of Allah without (knowing) how. It is obligatory for a person to have faith in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Abu Yusuff View Post
    salaam there is ijma on Allah not having a direction and that Him 'Being established on the throne' is just a metaphorical statement

    the Ulema of ahlus sunnah wal jamaah have always agreed to this and it is only the salafi's that differ but this differing does not effect the ijma
    To say that this is a metaphorical statement would mean you are saying it is Al-Majaaz. I do not know if this is exactly what you meant. If so, could you please refer to the 'ijmaa you refer to.

    As far as my limited knowledge goes, saying that 'istawaa is Al-Majaaz was actually the thought of the al-muʿtazilah.

    Perhaps you meant to say that this is to be understood as it is without giving it any interpretation or resemblance to the creation.

    Reminds of what people often quote Imam Maalik (may Allah have mercy on him) as saying: Istiwaa is known but the manner is unknown.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    salaam there is ijma on Allah not having a direction and that Him 'Being established on the throne' is just a metaphorical statement

    the Ulema of ahlus sunnah wal jamaah have always agreed to this and it is only the salafi's that differ but this differing does not effect the ijma

    Leave a comment:

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