Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

[Mikha’eel]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

I don't remember the slave girl whom the prophet saw asked being a scholar? Or am I mistaken?

Your understanding of that narration and how the Ulema have understood it are very different. She was not engaging in some complicated discussion like you people are. Lay people have no business involving themselves in such debates.

[Mikha’eel]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

It's actually a simple matter and all we have to do is to follow what the prophet :saw: believed in without adding anything on top of it. Now the real question is why are people not willing to accept the approval of the prophet :saw: with regards to this issue ?

As muslims aren't we supposed to affirm everything the prophet conveyed to us about Allah ? the answer the slave girl gave was enough to set her free and confirm her emaan as a believer, isn't this a clear indication why it is very important to have the correct creed about this topic. I mean her answer confirmed that she was a muslim what does this say about those who deny that Allah is above the heavens, above His throne ?

I fail to understand why some muslims are having a hard time accepting that Allah is above the heavens, above the throne, when the evidence points to this fact. Allah has mentioned it in His book, the prophet :saw: has also verifyied this, the salaf , the 4 imams, etc all of them affirmed that Allah is above the heavens, above His throne. What more is there to do other than to afffirm this belief ?

For you and everyone elses benefit i'm posting this:


<QUESTION>
Some people say Allah is everywhere, some say He is above the heavens, some say He is on His throne; and everyone seems to present tons of evidences to prove their point. I am so confused about the whole issue. Where is Allah? Please explain!

<ANSWER>
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

The short and simple answer to your question is that Allah Most High existssahaba) and early Muslims (salaf). We seldom find within classical teachings of mainstream Muslim scholars that people went around asking and debating where Allah Most High is! And aside from the hadith of Sahih Muslim in which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) asked the slave-girl (jariya), build a strong relationship with Him, affirm His exaltedness (tanzih), affirm His Oneness (tawhid), learn about His attributes (sifat), worship Him, obey His commands and abstain from His prohibitions. Beyond that, there is no Islamic obligation to know where Allah Almighty exactly is; neither is it possible for the meager intellects of us created beings to fully grasp the reality and majesty of our Creator. We have not even fully understood the reality of our souls, bodies, the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the sky, and so forth; then how are we expected to comprehend the essence (kunhaqidadeenaqidatawhidtanzihTanzihjism), nor an atom (jawhar), nor is He something formed (musawwar), nor a thing limited (mahdud), nor a thing numbered (), nor a thing portioned or divided, nor a thing compounded (mutarakkab), and nor does He come to end in Himself. He is not described by quiddity (al-mahiyya), or by quality (al-kayfiyya), nor is He placed in a space (al-makan); and time (al-zaman, P: 92-97)
To believe that Allah Most High resembles His creation in any way, or attribute human forms and qualities to Him (anthropomorphism/tashbih) constitutes disbelief (kufrsalaf) as well as the late ones (Al-Fiqh al-Akbarjismjism/body linguistically is used to indicate things that have length, width, depth, and a compound nature. (See the footnotes to Minah al-Rawd al-Azhar fi sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar, P: 118)

As such, this basic and central aqidathat are similar to His creation, or one gives Allah attributes of created things, then that would entail disbelief.


Beyond Time and Space
Part of this central point of aqida is recognizing that Allah Most High is not confined to time (zaman) and space (makan), since He is the creator of both and absolutely free from needing anything (ghaniyyAl-Fiqh al-Akbarjism), substance (jawhar), or accident (aradMinah al-Rawd al-Azhar fi sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar, P: 117-120)


Imam Abu Hanifa (Allah be pleased with him) also states in his Al-Fiqh al-AbsatAl-Fiqh al-AkbarDealing with texts whose meanings are not decisively known (mutashabihat)

istawayanzilumutashabihattanzih1) The most precautious and mainstream position in this regard is of the early Muslims (salaf), which includes the majority of the Companions, their followers (), the majority of hadith scholars (muhaddithuntafwidtashbihhululamirruha bi la kayf). (Some of the scholars from this group, however, interpret the second type of texts which indicate that Allah Most High is everywhere by saying, He is everywhere by His Knowledge, His Seeing, His Hearing and His Power).

This position of tafwidmuhkamat [of established meaning], which are the principal verses of the Book, and some others aremutashabihat [whose definite meanings are unknown]. Now those who have perversity in their hearts go after the mutashabihAl-Fiqh al-AkbarKitab al-Wasiyyaistiwaistiwaistiwaistiwakayfsalafistiwaistiwamutashabihat 2/158)

2) The second position concerning such texts is of some later scholars; such as Imam Ibn Taymiya, Imam Ibn al-Qayyim and others (Allah have mercy on them). They also consign the knowledge of what is meant to Allah, but in a slightly different manner. They are of the opinion that we must affirm the apparent literal meaning that has been expressed in the text (tathbitkayfiyyamutashabihistiwanuzulqadimistiwanuzulmutashabihatistiwa and then say that the meaning of this isAl-Fiqh al-Absatsalaftafwidmutashabihat texts, and firm on the position of consigning the meaning to the knowledge of Allah.
As such, followers of Imam Abu Hanifa and commentators of his works have explained what he meant by the above text. They state that the reason why Imam Abu Hanifa declared a person who says these two phrases a disbeliever is because they contain attributing a direction and location for Allah. (See: Isharat al-Maram min Ibarat al-Imam
3) The third position in regards to these mutashabihat texts is that their apparent literal meaning is impossible for Allah; thus the texts will be interpreted figuratively/metaphorically in a manner befitting Allah, yet without affirming it with certainty since other meanings could also be correct. This position was held mainly by scholars of later generations (khalaf), who were forced to take this stance in order to safeguard the iman of the masses, since people were not satisfied with merely consigning the knowledge of mutashabihat texts to Allah, and thus began to understand them literally and read into meanings that do not befit Allah Most High.

This position is known as the position of . salaf), including some of the Sahaba such as Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him), made muhkamatwajhFath al-BariwajhjalalFath al-Bari with Sahih al-Bukhari 8/641-642)
Similarly, in regards to the hadith of Bukhari and MuslimdhiksaqBukharisaqsalaf and khalafsaq, p: 323)

Imam Ibn Kathir (Allah have mercy on him) relates in his masterpiece quoting Imam al-Bayhaqi from his Manaqibthawabmutashabihattafsirmufassirqahr) and control (tadbiralasahihqiblafuqaha), their hadith scholars (muhaddithun), their theologians (mutakallimun), their polemicists (nuddhar) and their ordinary followers (muqalliduniman). The first position is to believe in them without delving into its meaning (tafwid); while maintaining categorically that there is nothing like unto Allah Most High, and that He transcends the attributes of created things. The second position is to interpret them figuratively (qibla) for supplication (qiblaMishkat al-Masabihmakan), for verily He is above and beyond space, as He is above and beyond time. Rather the intent of his question to her was to find out whether she was a believer in His oneness (muwahhida) or someone who associated partners with Allah (mushrikatawhidSahih Muslim, Shaykh Muhammad al-Shanqiti, Imam Abu Bakr ibn al-Furak in his Mushkil al-Hadith, Qadi Abu Bakr ibn al-Arabi in his commentary of Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Imam Ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanbali in his makan), but about His rank and status (makanaadhama

Conclusion and final thoughts
In conclusion, the central point of aqidatanziha) Consigning their meanings and details completely to the knowledge of Allah. This position, known as tafwid, was chosen by the majority of early scholars (salaf), and by far the best and safest approach.

b) Affirming their literal meanings (tathbitkayfiyya) of such texts to the knowledge of Allah. This position, chosen by scholars such as Imam Ibn Taymiya, can be risky for an average believer.

c) Interpreting such texts figuratively in a manner that befits Allah. This is known as , and was chosen by some later scholars.
None of the above three standpoints can be considered deviation or departure from the . One of my respected Shaykhs, Mufti Taqi Usmani (may Allah preserve him) states in his monumental commentary of Sahih Muslimaqida) is declaring Allah to be beyond having a similitude [with His creation], and not negating His attributes (); and every one of these four paths is firmly convinced of this. The difference between them is not a difference in creed, for indeed the creed is declaring Allah beyond tashbih and ; it is only a difference of opinion in expressing that creed and basing them on the texts. So not one of these paths is entirely baseless or absolutely misguided, even if theoretical debates and arguments have not ceased to run between them for many centuries. Occasionally, exaggeration and excess occurred in them from the various sides, and occasionally one of them steered in the direction of trespassing the limits of moderation, but the truth is that the basis of the dispute is nothing but a judgmental (ijtihadi) dispute, akin to the differences of the jurists in juristic matters which are open to interpretation. For this reason, outstanding scholars of the Umma, adherent devotees to the Book and the Sunna, of whose being from the people of truth and from the is not in doubt, took every opinion from these four opinions.

It is apparent that the path of the majority from the predecessors (salaf) was tafwidJawharat al-Tawhid. He states that all the various positions of the scholars are close to one-another, since they all agree that Allah Most High does not possess human-like attributes. Thereafter, whether one consigns the meaning completely to the knowledge of Allah, or interprets the texts figuratively, or affirms the literal meaning but negates anthropomorphism (tashbihAl-Mukhtasar al-Mufid fi sharh Jawharat al-TawhidtafwidyadYadyadaqidamushabbiha), whilst others consider tafwid, and everything else besides affirming the literal meaning (tathbit) to be outright deviation and even disbelief! This implies declaring countless Imams and giants of this Umma as deviated, since most of them either chose the path of tafwid or. May Allah protect us, Ameen.

Indeed, the following positions are absolute deviation and may well even take one out of the fold of Islam:
a)tashbih). Sitting, standing, coming into contact, separation, moving from one place to another, etc, are all characteristics of created bodies from which Allah is pure.
b)hulul.
c) Rejecting and denying the non-decisive (mutashabihat) texts concerning the attributes of Allah altogether. This is known as .
The above is what I have learnt from my teachers, especially Shaykh Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani (may Allah preserve him). It is what I consider and accept as the truth in the matter, and feel is the most balanced observation, Insha Allah. May Allah protect us all and bring about harmony and love between us, Ameen Ya Rabb.
And Allah knows best

[Mufti] Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester , UK

http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6810

[Guled]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

For you and everyone elses benefit i'm posting this:

:salams:

I already indicated the apparent contradictions in the fatwa over here : Where is Allah

Just take alook at what he says

Based on this, it is erroneous to say that Allah Most High is ‘physically’ in the sky or above the heavens on His Throne. Likewise, it is wrong to say that He Most High is ‘physically’ everywhere and in everything. The reason, as explained above, is that these things are created and limited. The Throne and heavens are restricted entities, and space is an area restricted within six dimensions. Allah Most High cannot be confined to things He has created, such as the heavens and the Throne. He is the creator of time and space, and thus is exalted beyond both.

The prophet :saw: approved and affirmed that Allah is above the heavens who is he to tell us otherwise ? do you think the prophet :saw: made a mistake in approving the answer given by the slave girl ? Did the prophet :saw: add any of the criteria that he keeps on mentioning like space & time ? are these criteria the daleel that we are supposed to follow ? if so why didn't the prophet :saw: include them when he was appoving the answer of the slave girl? if these criteria were never a prerequiste inorder for us to understand the attributes of Allah , neither were they conveyed to us by the prophet :saw: shouldn't we disregard them esp when we know that applying leads to denying/rejecting misinterpreting part of the message conveyed to us by the messenger of Allah

Nobody is limiting Allah or comparing Him to His creation except those who have already superimposed the characteristics of the creation to those of Allah which is why they can never be able to affirm the attributes that Allah has affirmed for Himself in the quran. This is the crux of the matter !!!. Their limited aql can't think of a hand, face, laughter that isn't what we know and see.

Why did ulama like abu hanifa (may Allah be pleased with him ) consider those who didn't know whether Allah was above the heavens or on earth as kafirs ? if abu hanifa never affirmed the apparent meaning of the verses which state that Allah is above the heavens, above the throne and left the meaning to Allah why in the world would he declare anyone who didn't know whether Allah was above the heaven or on earth or whether the throne was above the heavens or on earth as kafirs even when the person accepts that Allah is above His arsh ?

If the apparent meaning is known to Allah only then abu hanifa's takfir of such people is invalid which would mean that it would come back to him.

As such; we affirm the words indicating location and Throne for Allah, and also those which indicate Him being everywhere. However, we cannot comprehend the reality of Allah being on his Throne and neither can we comprehend the reality of Him being everywhere – although we fully negate that Allah is ‘physically’ in the heavens/on his Throne (tashbih), and also negate that He is ‘physically’ everywhere in everything (hulul). This is what the early scholars meant when they said regarding such texts, “Pass them by as they are, without asking how” (amirruha bi la kayf). (Some of the scholars from this group, however, interpret the second type of texts which indicate that Allah Most High is everywhere by saying, He is everywhere by His Knowledge, His Seeing, His Hearing and His Power).

How can you affirm and negate something at the same time ? it's like saying that a person is neither alive nor dead this is only possible when the person in question does not exist at all. So according to this logic this would mean that the attributes in question do not exist at all , does this make sense at all ? How can the attribute not exist while Allah is affirming it for Himself in the quran. If one follows through with this logic then he or she would end up negating any attribute to Allah at all. Now you do understand how dangerous it is to rely on our aql to understand Allah.

[Mikha’eel]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

I remember now, that was you from the other topic, and if i recall correctly, you made it clear you were a lay-person. So therefore you aren't in any position to be challenging the views of respected Ulema of the past that are saying contrary to what you claim.

What i posted was enough to address this topic and the 3 different views regarding it. Just give it a rest already and stop pointlessly debating a matter against scholars that understand this far better than you or me do.

[Guled]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

I remember now, that was you from the other topic, and if i recall correctly, you made it clear you were a lay-person. So therefore you aren't in any position to be challenging the views of respected Ulema of the past that are saying contrary to what you claim.

What i posted was enough to address this topic and the 3 different views regarding it. Just give it a rest already and stop pointlessly debating a matter against scholars that understand this far better than you or me do.

Why are making it out as if what i stated was from my own when i've simply used statments from the fatwa and the hadith of the slave girl to clarify clear cut contradictions in the fatwa. How is it possible for a scholar to not only contradict a saying of the prophet but also call a belief that the prophet held erroneous. What kind of a scholar is that ?

I mean i accept my status as a layman but i would never call any statement or belief of the prophet :saw: erroneous no matter how far i lack in understanding. If i understand this despite my level what about a scholar? what forces such a person to say such things. Is such a person reliable and trustworthy ?

Posting a fatwa that contains contradictions, incorrect statements about the sahaba, 4 imams does not bring benefit to the discussion nor does it clarify the issue at hand. Have you bothered to check what i said might be true at all ? anyways i do agree with you there is no point in continuing this discussion any further if you simply keep on posting without trying to understand the implications of the contents of that fatwa.

[Linkdeutscher]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

For you and everyone elses benefit i'm posting this:


<QUESTION>
Some people say Allah is everywhere, some say He is above the heavens, some say He is on His throne; and everyone seems to present tons of evidences to prove their point. I am so confused about the whole issue. Where is Allah? Please explain!

<ANSWER>
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

[COLOR=#3B3B3B][FONT=Arial]The short and simple answer to your question is that Allah Most High exists

Stopped reading there. And the reason this wasn't debated back then was because there weren't any deviants who denied Allah being above the throne, thus the issue didn't exist.

[Abu Yusuff]

http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6810

[bestoflights]

http://bestoflights.blogspot.com/201...l-ard.html?m=1http://bestoflights.blogspot.com/201...allah.html?m=1

[Mikha’eel]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

Why are making it out as if what i stated was from my own when i've simply used statments from the fatwa and the hadith of the slave girl to clarify clear cut contradictions in the fatwa. How is it possible for a scholar to not only contradict a saying of the prophet but also call a belief that the prophet held erroneous. What kind of a scholar is that ?

I mean i accept my status as a layman but i would never call any statement or belief of the prophet :saw: erroneous no matter how far i lack in understanding. If i understand this despite my level what about a scholar? what forces such a person to say such things. Is such a person reliable and trustworthy ?

Posting a fatwa that contains contradictions, incorrect statements about the sahaba, 4 imams does not bring benefit to the discussion nor does it clarify the issue at hand. Have you bothered to check what i said might be true at all ? anyways i do agree with you there is no point in continuing this discussion any further if you simply keep on posting without trying to understand the implications of the contents of that fatwa.

It still amazes me, you a lay person have the audacity to argue with scholars and accuse them of being wrong/contradicting the Prophet :saw: as if you understand better than he does or any of the great Ulema he quoted regarding what they've said.

he cited all his sources, he unlike you knows the arabic language, and has access to that literature in its original language, and yet you accuse him of misrepresenting their positions as if you understand them better than him.

Learn some humility and stop being arrogant. This is the problem with people now days, everyone thinks they know better than the Ulema.

[Mikha’eel]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

Stopped reading there. And the reason this wasn't debated back then was because there weren't any deviants who denied Allah being above the throne, thus the issue didn't exist.

Of course you stopped reading there, because its proof you're not interested in anything he had to say or what the correct understanding(s) are regarding this subject matter.


Topics like this make me wish i had applied for moderator, so i could lock these topics soon as they open. lay-people have no business discussing these topics, let alone being arrogant enough to challenge and accuse scholars who are vastly more knowledgeable than they are.

[Mohamed Mifxal]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

this is why logic cannot be applied in Islam, everyone has an opinion and they not the same, I believe Allah is above the throne and I believe in the words of the prophet (saw) and consensus of the scholars. You have to believe the words messenger (saw) is the truth if you believe in Allah. it is Allah who said, the prophet (saw) doesn't speak from his desire, rather they are revealed to him by Allah

[Guled]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

It still amazes me, you a lay person have the audacity to argue with scholars and accuse them of being wrong/contradicting the Prophet :saw: as if you understand better than he does or any of the great Ulema he quoted regarding what they've said.

he cited all his sources, he unlike you knows the arabic language, and has access to that literature in its original language, and yet you accuse him of misrepresenting their positions as if you understand them better than him.

Learn some humility and stop being arrogant. This is the problem with people now days, everyone thinks they know better than the Ulema.

:salams:

What amazes me the most is just how far you are willing to ignore the mistakes this scholar makes. I am not the one who wrote the following

Based on this, it is erroneous to say that Allah Most High is ‘physically’ in the sky or above the heavens on His Throne

It's one thing to hold the opinion of figuratively interpreting the sifaat of Allah but it's a different issue all together when one decides to call the belief of those who hold on to the apparent meanings of Allah's sifaat as erroneous.

The prophet :saw: approved and affirmed that Allah is above the heavens, Allah has affirmed in His quran that He is above the heavens, above the arsh and i as layman affirm this as well that Allah is above the heavens, above the arsh. But according to him this is a mistaken belief to have and by saying this he's only inviting trouble why you might ask ? the reason is simple because i did not come up with this belief it was one that was revealed by Allah conveyed to us by the prophet :saw:

Have you asked yourself why i said that he was misinterpreting the views of the salaf, 4 imams etc ? i even gave an example of this where he qoutes imam malik & imam abu hanifa but their statements actually contradict what he was trying to ascribe to them. Here is what he says at first

1) The most precautious and mainstream position in this regard is of the early Muslims (salaf), which includes the majority of the Companions, their followers (tabi’un), the majority of hadith scholars (muhaddithun), the four main Imams and the major scholars of their schools (Allah be pleased with them all). Their view is that the outward purport of such texts is not intended, and only Allah knows the real meanings of such texts; thus they consign their meanings completely to Allah Most High without attempting to interpret them – either literally or figuratively. This is known as the position of tafwid.

A few lines later mentions the statement of imam malik

Mulla Ali al-Qari further states, “How fitting is the response of Imam Malik (Allah have mercy on him) when he was asked about istiwa. He said, ‘istiwa is known [i.e. we know and accept that it has been mentioned in the Qur’an, because in another narration Imam Malik said, ‘istiwa is not unknown’], the ‘how’ (kayf) is unknown [this has also been transmitted as ‘the how is not comprehensible’], asking about it is an innovation, and belief in it [i.e. accepting it to be part of revelation] is obligatory.’ This is the way of the early scholars (salaf) and the safest path, and Allah knows best.

NOW THE CONTRADICTION

According to this scholar he says that that the view of salaf, 4 imams etc was " that the outward purport of such texts is not intended, and only Allah knows the real meanings of such texts; thus they consign their meanings completely to Allah Most High without attempting to interpret them – either literally or figuratively.

But the statement of imam malik completely contradicts this as imam says that isitiwaa is KNOWN but the kayf (how) is unknown. If Imam Maalik’s statement was in support of tafwid he would have never said istiwaa is known and the kayf is unknown. He wouldn’t need to specify the kayf if the meaning was also unknown (as is the case in tafwid). So imam malik affirmed not only the wording but also the meaning since he clearly stated isitawaa is known. This is the creed of the salaf and that which the 4 imams were upon .

Basically the creed of the salaf was that they affirmed the wording and meaning but they left the knowledge of how to Allah . What is meant by meaning here is that they affirmed the apparent meanings of the attributes eg that Allah has a hand, rose above the arsh, descends to the lower heaven etc . So the salaf affirmed the attributes of Allah

1. without Ta'teel - denying the meaning
2. without Tahreef - distorting the meaning
3. without Tashbeeh - likening to the creation
4. without Takyeef - asking how?"

[Guled]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

this is why logic cannot be applied in Islam, everyone has an opinion and they not the same, I believe Allah is above the throne and I believe in the words of the prophet (saw) and consensus of the scholars. You have to believe the words messenger (saw) is the truth if you believe in Allah. it is Allah who said, the prophet (saw) doesn't speak from his desire, rather they are revealed to him by Allah

:salams:

I couldn't agree more. The evidence is the quran and hadith and not our aql esp when it comes to Allah's sifaat. They don't seem to realize this fundamental error they are upon. The root of their deviation is that they have already defined god based on aristotelian logic meaning they have decided which attributes are and aren't befitting of god based upon this logic. So when they come across ayat in the quran that seem to contradict the predefined attributes that god is supposed to have they are forced to re-interpret them or make invalid tafwid ie they affirm the wording but not the meaning so when Allah says that He rose over the arsh they say: We do not know what it means or what Allah meant by it

If you ask them what prevents Allah from being above the heavens, above the arsh they say this implies you are confining Allah to time and space meaning you are limiting Allah since the Throne and heavens are restricted entities which are created, and space is an area restricted within six dimensions. Allah Most High cannot be confined to things He has created, such as the heavens and the Throne.

The mistake they make is that they impose the characteristics of the creation to the attributes of Allah since they can't conceive of charateristics that aren't like what we know or see. So they reject, deny the attributes of Allah thinking that if they were to affirm them as they are mentioned in the quran this would lead to tashbeeh ( likening to the creation).

May Allah keep us steadfast and protect us

[shabbir80]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

There hasn't been an Ijma (consensus) on anything for centuries. Differences (technical and polite term: Ikhtilaf) exist on almost every matter and differences create new groups and sects based on variant sets of beliefs.

If you visit any populous Mulsim country you will find many sects based of these differences. Ask anyone about other sect and they will tell you "they are devieant because they believe that instead of that".

[Jannah2]

Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

There hasn't been an Ijma (consensus) on anything for centuries. Differences (technical and polite term: Ikhtilaf) exist on almost every matter and differences create new groups and sects based on variant sets of beliefs.

If you visit any populous Mulsim country you will find many sects based of these differences. Ask anyone about other sect and they will tell you "they are devieant because they believe that instead of that".

ijma only pertains to the ahlus sunnah wal jamaah so other groups like Shia's kharijites, extremists fantaics etc etc, differing don't effect an ijma