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Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

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  • Guled
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
    For you and everyone elses benefit i'm posting this:
    :salams:

    I already indicated the apparent contradictions in the fatwa over here : Where is Allah

    Just take alook at what he says

    Based on this, it is erroneous to say that Allah Most High is ‘physically’ in the sky or above the heavens on His Throne. Likewise, it is wrong to say that He Most High is ‘physically’ everywhere and in everything. The reason, as explained above, is that these things are created and limited. The Throne and heavens are restricted entities, and space is an area restricted within six dimensions. Allah Most High cannot be confined to things He has created, such as the heavens and the Throne. He is the creator of time and space, and thus is exalted beyond both.
    The prophet :saw: approved and affirmed that Allah is above the heavens who is he to tell us otherwise ? do you think the prophet :saw: made a mistake in approving the answer given by the slave girl ? Did the prophet :saw: add any of the criteria that he keeps on mentioning like space & time ? are these criteria the daleel that we are supposed to follow ? if so why didn't the prophet :saw: include them when he was appoving the answer of the slave girl? if these criteria were never a prerequiste inorder for us to understand the attributes of Allah , neither were they conveyed to us by the prophet :saw: shouldn't we disregard them esp when we know that applying leads to denying/rejecting misinterpreting part of the message conveyed to us by the messenger of Allah

    Nobody is limiting Allah or comparing Him to His creation except those who have already superimposed the characteristics of the creation to those of Allah which is why they can never be able to affirm the attributes that Allah has affirmed for Himself in the quran. This is the crux of the matter !!!. Their limited aql can't think of a hand, face, laughter that isn't what we know and see.

    Why did ulama like abu hanifa (may Allah be pleased with him ) consider those who didn't know whether Allah was above the heavens or on earth as kafirs ? if abu hanifa never affirmed the apparent meaning of the verses which state that Allah is above the heavens, above the throne and left the meaning to Allah why in the world would he declare anyone who didn't know whether Allah was above the heaven or on earth or whether the throne was above the heavens or on earth as kafirs even when the person accepts that Allah is above His arsh ?

    If the apparent meaning is known to Allah only then abu hanifa's takfir of such people is invalid which would mean that it would come back to him.

    As such; we affirm the words indicating location and Throne for Allah, and also those which indicate Him being everywhere. However, we cannot comprehend the reality of Allah being on his Throne and neither can we comprehend the reality of Him being everywhere – although we fully negate that Allah is ‘physically’ in the heavens/on his Throne (tashbih), and also negate that He is ‘physically’ everywhere in everything (hulul). This is what the early scholars meant when they said regarding such texts, “Pass them by as they are, without asking how” (amirruha bi la kayf). (Some of the scholars from this group, however, interpret the second type of texts which indicate that Allah Most High is everywhere by saying, He is everywhere by His Knowledge, His Seeing, His Hearing and His Power).
    How can you affirm and negate something at the same time ? it's like saying that a person is neither alive nor dead this is only possible when the person in question does not exist at all. So according to this logic this would mean that the attributes in question do not exist at all , does this make sense at all ? How can the attribute not exist while Allah is affirming it for Himself in the quran. If one follows through with this logic then he or she would end up negating any attribute to Allah at all. Now you do understand how dangerous it is to rely on our aql to understand Allah.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikha’eel
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Guled View Post
    It's actually a simple matter and all we have to do is to follow what the prophet :saw: believed in without adding anything on top of it. Now the real question is why are people not willing to accept the approval of the prophet :saw: with regards to this issue ?

    As muslims aren't we supposed to affirm everything the prophet conveyed to us about Allah ? the answer the slave girl gave was enough to set her free and confirm her emaan as a believer, isn't this a clear indication why it is very important to have the correct creed about this topic. I mean her answer confirmed that she was a muslim what does this say about those who deny that Allah is above the heavens, above His throne ?

    I fail to understand why some muslims are having a hard time accepting that Allah is above the heavens, above the throne, when the evidence points to this fact. Allah has mentioned it in His book, the prophet :saw: has also verifyied this, the salaf , the 4 imams, etc all of them affirmed that Allah is above the heavens, above His throne. What more is there to do other than to afffirm this belief ?

    For you and everyone elses benefit i'm posting this:


    <QUESTION>
    Some people say Allah is everywhere, some say He is above the heavens, some say He is on His throne; and everyone seems to present tons of evidences to prove their point. I am so confused about the whole issue. Where is Allah? Please explain!

    <ANSWER>
    In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

    The short and simple answer to your question is that Allah Most High existssahaba) and early Muslims (salaf). We seldom find within classical teachings of mainstream Muslim scholars that people went around asking and debating where Allah Most High is! And aside from the hadith of Sahih Muslim in which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) asked the slave-girl (jariya), build a strong relationship with Him, affirm His exaltedness (tanzih), affirm His Oneness (tawhid), learn about His attributes (sifat), worship Him, obey His commands and abstain from His prohibitions. Beyond that, there is no Islamic obligation to know where Allah Almighty exactly is; neither is it possible for the meager intellects of us created beings to fully grasp the reality and majesty of our Creator. We have not even fully understood the reality of our souls, bodies, the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the sky, and so forth; then how are we expected to comprehend the essence (kunhaqidadeenaqidatawhidtanzihTanzihjism), nor an atom (jawhar), nor is He something formed (musawwar), nor a thing limited (mahdud), nor a thing numbered (), nor a thing portioned or divided, nor a thing compounded (mutarakkab), and nor does He come to end in Himself. He is not described by quiddity (al-mahiyya), or by quality (al-kayfiyya), nor is He placed in a space (al-makan); and time (al-zaman, P: 92-97)
    To believe that Allah Most High resembles His creation in any way, or attribute human forms and qualities to Him (anthropomorphism/tashbih) constitutes disbelief (kufrsalaf) as well as the late ones (Al-Fiqh al-Akbarjismjism/body linguistically is used to indicate things that have length, width, depth, and a compound nature. (See the footnotes to Minah al-Rawd al-Azhar fi sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar, P: 118)

    As such, this basic and central aqidathat are similar to His creation, or one gives Allah attributes of created things, then that would entail disbelief.


    Beyond Time and Space

    Part of this central point of aqida is recognizing that Allah Most High is not confined to time (zaman) and space (makan), since He is the creator of both and absolutely free from needing anything (ghaniyyAl-Fiqh al-Akbarjism), substance (jawhar), or accident (aradMinah al-Rawd al-Azhar fi sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar, P: 117-120)


    Imam Abu Hanifa (Allah be pleased with him) also states in his Al-Fiqh al-AbsatAl-Fiqh al-AkbarDealing with texts whose meanings are not decisively known (mutashabihat)

    istawayanzilumutashabihattanzih1) The most precautious and mainstream position in this regard is of the early Muslims (salaf), which includes the majority of the Companions, their followers (), the majority of hadith scholars (muhaddithuntafwidtashbihhululamirruha bi la kayf). (Some of the scholars from this group, however, interpret the second type of texts which indicate that Allah Most High is everywhere by saying, He is everywhere by His Knowledge, His Seeing, His Hearing and His Power).

    This position of tafwidmuhkamat [of established meaning], which are the principal verses of the Book, and some others aremutashabihat [whose definite meanings are unknown]. Now those who have perversity in their hearts go after the mutashabihAl-Fiqh al-AkbarKitab al-Wasiyyaistiwaistiwaistiwaistiwakayfsalafistiwaistiwamutashabihat 2/158)

    2)
    The second position concerning such texts is of some later scholars; such as Imam Ibn Taymiya, Imam Ibn al-Qayyim and others (Allah have mercy on them). They also consign the knowledge of what is meant to Allah, but in a slightly different manner. They are of the opinion that we must affirm the apparent literal meaning that has been expressed in the text (tathbitkayfiyyamutashabihistiwanuzulqadimistiwanuzulmutashabihatistiwa and then say that the meaning of this isAl-Fiqh al-Absatsalaftafwidmutashabihat texts, and firm on the position of consigning the meaning to the knowledge of Allah.
    As such, followers of Imam Abu Hanifa and commentators of his works have explained what he meant by the above text. They state that the reason why Imam Abu Hanifa declared a person who says these two phrases a disbeliever is because they contain attributing a direction and location for Allah. (See: Isharat al-Maram min Ibarat al-Imam
    3)
    The third position in regards to these mutashabihat texts is that their apparent literal meaning is impossible for Allah; thus the texts will be interpreted figuratively/metaphorically in a manner befitting Allah, yet without affirming it with certainty since other meanings could also be correct. This position was held mainly by scholars of later generations (khalaf), who were forced to take this stance in order to safeguard the iman of the masses, since people were not satisfied with merely consigning the knowledge of mutashabihat texts to Allah, and thus began to understand them literally and read into meanings that do not befit Allah Most High.

    This position is known as the position of . salaf), including some of the Sahaba such as Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him), made muhkamatwajhFath al-BariwajhjalalFath al-Bari with Sahih al-Bukhari 8/641-642)
    Similarly, in regards to the hadith of Bukhari and MuslimdhiksaqBukharisaqsalaf and khalafsaq, p: 323)

    Imam Ibn Kathir (Allah have mercy on him) relates in his masterpiece quoting Imam al-Bayhaqi from his Manaqibthawabmutashabihattafsirmufassirqahr) and control (tadbiralasahihqiblafuqaha), their hadith scholars (muhaddithun), their theologians (mutakallimun), their polemicists (nuddhar) and their ordinary followers (muqalliduniman). The first position is to believe in them without delving into its meaning (tafwid); while maintaining categorically that there is nothing like unto Allah Most High, and that He transcends the attributes of created things. The second position is to interpret them figuratively (qibla) for supplication (qiblaMishkat al-Masabihmakan), for verily He is above and beyond space, as He is above and beyond time. Rather the intent of his question to her was to find out whether she was a believer in His oneness (muwahhida) or someone who associated partners with Allah (mushrikatawhidSahih Muslim, Shaykh Muhammad al-Shanqiti, Imam Abu Bakr ibn al-Furak in his Mushkil al-Hadith, Qadi Abu Bakr ibn al-Arabi in his commentary of Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Imam Ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanbali in his makan), but about His rank and status (makanaadhama

    Conclusion and final thoughts

    In conclusion, the central point of aqidatanziha) Consigning their meanings and details completely to the knowledge of Allah. This position, known as tafwid, was chosen by the majority of early scholars (salaf), and by far the best and safest approach.

    b)
    Affirming their literal meanings (tathbitkayfiyya) of such texts to the knowledge of Allah. This position, chosen by scholars such as Imam Ibn Taymiya, can be risky for an average believer.

    c)
    Interpreting such texts figuratively in a manner that befits Allah. This is known as , and was chosen by some later scholars.
    None of the above three standpoints can be considered deviation or departure from the . One of my respected Shaykhs, Mufti Taqi Usmani (may Allah preserve him) states in his monumental commentary of Sahih Muslimaqida) is declaring Allah to be beyond having a similitude [with His creation], and not negating His attributes (); and every one of these four paths is firmly convinced of this. The difference between them is not a difference in creed, for indeed the creed is declaring Allah beyond tashbih and ; it is only a difference of opinion in expressing that creed and basing them on the texts. So not one of these paths is entirely baseless or absolutely misguided, even if theoretical debates and arguments have not ceased to run between them for many centuries. Occasionally, exaggeration and excess occurred in them from the various sides, and occasionally one of them steered in the direction of trespassing the limits of moderation, but the truth is that the basis of the dispute is nothing but a judgmental (ijtihadi) dispute, akin to the differences of the jurists in juristic matters which are open to interpretation. For this reason, outstanding scholars of the Umma, adherent devotees to the Book and the Sunna, of whose being from the people of truth and from the is not in doubt, took every opinion from these four opinions.

    It is apparent that the path of the majority from the predecessors (salaf) was tafwidJawharat al-Tawhid. He states that all the various positions of the scholars are close to one-another, since they all agree that Allah Most High does not possess human-like attributes. Thereafter, whether one consigns the meaning completely to the knowledge of Allah, or interprets the texts figuratively, or affirms the literal meaning but negates anthropomorphism (tashbihAl-Mukhtasar al-Mufid fi sharh Jawharat al-TawhidtafwidyadYadyadaqidamushabbiha), whilst others consider tafwid, and everything else besides affirming the literal meaning (tathbit) to be outright deviation and even disbelief! This implies declaring countless Imams and giants of this Umma as deviated, since most of them either chose the path of tafwid or. May Allah protect us, Ameen.

    Indeed, the following positions are absolute deviation and may well even take one out of the fold of Islam:
    a)tashbih). Sitting, standing, coming into contact, separation, moving from one place to another, etc, are all characteristics of created bodies from which Allah is pure.
    b)hulul.
    c) Rejecting and denying the non-decisive (mutashabihat) texts concerning the attributes of Allah altogether. This is known as .
    The above is what I have learnt from my teachers, especially Shaykh Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani (may Allah preserve him). It is what I consider and accept as the truth in the matter, and feel is the most balanced observation, Insha Allah. May Allah protect us all and bring about harmony and love between us, Ameen Ya Rabb.
    And Allah knows best

    [Mufti] Muhammad ibn Adam
    Darul Iftaa
    Leicester , UK

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6810
    Last edited by Mikha’eel; 13-05-15, 04:12 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mikha’eel
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    I don't remember the slave girl whom the prophet saw asked being a scholar? Or am I mistaken?
    Your understanding of that narration and how the Ulema have understood it are very different. She was not engaging in some complicated discussion like you people are. Lay people have no business involving themselves in such debates.

    Leave a comment:


  • Linkdeutscher
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by AbuDarda View Post
    Acki, this benefits not the laymans eman in any way. No point in us discussing this. Let it be discussed by the people of knowledge if at all.
    I don't remember the slave girl whom the prophet saw asked being a scholar? Or am I mistaken?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guled
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by AbuDarda View Post
    Acki, this benefits not the laymans eman in any way. No point in us discussing this. Let it be discussed by the people of knowledge if at all.
    It's actually a simple matter and all we have to do is to follow what the prophet :saw: believed in without adding anything on top of it. Now the real question is why are people not willing to accept the approval of the prophet :saw: with regards to this issue ?

    As muslims aren't we supposed to affirm everything the prophet conveyed to us about Allah ? the answer the slave girl gave was enough to set her free and confirm her emaan as a believer, isn't this a clear indication why it is very important to have the correct creed about this topic. I mean her answer confirmed that she was a muslim what does this say about those who deny that Allah is above the heavens, above His throne ?

    I fail to understand why some muslims are having a hard time accepting that Allah is above the heavens, above the throne, when the evidence points to this fact. Allah has mentioned it in His book, the prophet :saw: has also verifyied this, the salaf , the 4 imams, etc all of them affirmed that Allah is above the heavens, above His throne. What more is there to do other than to afffirm this belief ?

    Leave a comment:


  • AbuDarda
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Acki, this benefits not the laymans eman in any way. No point in us discussing this. Let it be discussed by the people of knowledge if at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guled
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    i don't need to imagine anything. Allah is above the throne. End of the story. No imagination needed.
    Exactly no need to ask any more questions when the answer is already known

    Leave a comment:


  • Guled
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    Asalamualikum,

    I am not trying to make another thread here, but my own view is that we can not describe Allah swt by means of direction. He created space, position, and direction - these are all terms to describe limited contingent forms of existence. Before he created the universe, was he 'above' or 'below' anything? If not, then he must have created everything 'below' him, and so he himself must be contained in something, which is illogical.

    However, i keep hearing different muslim brothers and sisters here contradict. Is it IJMAH or are there differences in opinion?

    And is it true Allah swt has fingers, because this is now really confusing me, when people say he literally has fingers, but not like out fingers, but a limited defined actual form.

    :salams:

    There was never any dispute among muslims about Allah being above His throne until the emergence of the mutakalimun. These people were influenced by greek/aristotelian logic to such an extent it become the foundation of how to understand the religion ie aql dictates our understanding of Allah and His religion. The effects of their doctrine led them to reject, deny and misinterpret most of the attributes of Allah

    When the prophet asked the slave girl “ayna Allah? (Where is Allah)?” she replied “fee* sama’ (above the sky).” He , accepted this and said “she is a believing woman. Isn't this sufficient enough ? If i were to ask you was the prophet :saw: wrong in approving the answer she gave to his question ?

    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    i don't need to imagine anything. Allah is above the throne. End of the story. No imagination needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Linkdeutscher
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by shay5 View Post
    this is funny quip you displayed..also you have futile minds about placement and Allah..you cannot even imagine..
    i don't need to imagine anything. Allah is above the throne. End of the story. No imagination needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Linkdeutscher
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    Lol brother, i think it's more of a salafi - sunni debate
    the ones most deserving of being called 'sunnis' are salafis. who else? barelvis? Deobandis?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jannah2
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    Lol brother, i think it's more of a salafi - sunni debate
    I know but saying that just inflames it even more! :D

    Leave a comment:


  • logicalislam
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Lol brother, i think it's more of a salafi - sunni debate

    Leave a comment:


  • Jannah2
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    leave it out bro; what you trying to do?; start a salafi sufi war??? :D

    Leave a comment:


  • logicalislam
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by Abu Yusuff View Post
    this must be misinterpretation; comments saying that 'we believe istiwa but the how is unknown' can be easily misunderstood; basically what it means is that we accept what Allah says [that Allah is established on the throne, but we do not say how and we do not interpret, which includes a literal interpretation too; this is the way to understand imam Maaliks statement
    And another salafi website arguing against the sunni's that perform tafwid - something shias' dont do either, but there's so much infighting

    Tafwid literally means to relegate, or to entrust someone with something. It is found in the ayah, “…my affair I commit (ufawwidu) to Allah…” (40:44).
    For the scholars of kalam it means to relegate the meanings of the Attributes of Allah without explaining them or discussing them. This was unknown to the early scholars and doesn’t seem to have appeared until the time of al-Shahrastani, Ghazali, and Razi (d. 547, 505, and 612AH respectively).
    They made tafwid because of the false conviction that the Attributes could not be understood in a literal manner or it would lead to anthropomorphism, and the realization that the early scholars of Islam had never been exposed to the Aristotelian logic and cosmology upon which they based this conviction.
    This led them to say that the earlier generations had no knowledge of the Sifaat and that they were “too pious and holy” to understand them, and thus made tafwid, whereas the ‘refined’ and ’sophisticated’ scholars of kalam came to make it more academic.
    To make tafwid is to basically say the Attributes of Allah are like random letters, i.e. when Allah says He has a “yadd” (hand) He may as well just have said “Alif Laam Meem” because we don’t know what it means and we ‘relegate’ it to Allah. This is in direct contradiction to what Imam Maalik said, that isitiwaa is KNOWN but the kayf (how) is unknown. When one makes tafwid he says the meaning is also unknown. And this is what is meant by the copious narrations from the early scholars which all basically say in regards to the narrations of Allah’s Attributes, “pass them on as they have come, we believe in them, and narrate them, without any kayf.”
    If Imam Maalik’s narration was in support of tafwid he would have never said istiwaa is known and the kayf is unknown. He wouldn’t need to specify the kayf if the meaning was also unknown (as is the case in tafwid).
    Ibn Taymiyyah said in al-’Aql wan-Naql,


    http://www.saheefah.org/2007/12/01/t...ers-of-tafwid/

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    You might have missed the post where I quoted the Arabic from Tafsir Al-Qurtubi. But it is from that Tafsir. Imam Al-Qurtubi, I am sure you know, was a Maaliki and he mentions this quote along with the three opinions I paraphrased from his Tafsir as to what the people have believed regarding this, and similar, Verses.

    Imam Maalik's saying is often noted in the words

    هذا هو اللفظ المشهور : ( الاستواء معلوم والكيف مجهول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة )

    Al-'istiwaa is known and how is unknown and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.

    وهذا هو اللفظ الصحيح : ( الإستواء غير مجهول والكيف غير معقول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة )

    The correct wording, as noted by Al-Qurtubi in his Tafsir is: Al-'istiwaa is not unknown and how is not understood and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.

    In essence, when you closely examine the two, it seems they mean the same thing.

    Anway, like Ghazali said, I usually do not indulge in these discussions. But your statement about it being from the Al-Majaaz is something which caught my attention.
    this must be misinterpretation; comments saying that 'we believe istiwa but the how is unknown' can be easily misunderstood; basically what it means is that we accept what Allah says [that Allah is established on the throne, but we do not say how and we do not interpret, which includes a literal interpretation too; this is the way to understand imam Maaliks statement

    Leave a comment:

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