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Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

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  • #16
    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    Before he created the universe, was he 'above' or 'below' anything? If not, then he must have created everything 'below' him, and so he himself must be contained in something, which is illogical.
    Always interesting watching the true anthropomorphists philosophizing about Allah.

    Now figure this one out through 'logic'- Allah has two Right Hands...

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

      Originally posted by Abu Yusuff View Post
      where did you get that Imam maalik statement from Bro?; some people are known to take out of context or even misinterpret; for example, look at Imam Ahmads statement and see how it clearly leaves the entire meaning of the words to Allah:
      You might have missed the post where I quoted the Arabic from Tafsir Al-Qurtubi. But it is from that Tafsir. Imam Al-Qurtubi, I am sure you know, was a Maaliki and he mentions this quote along with the three opinions I paraphrased from his Tafsir as to what the people have believed regarding this, and similar, Verses.

      Imam Maalik's saying is often noted in the words

      هذا هو اللفظ المشهور : ( الاستواء معلوم والكيف مجهول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة )

      Al-'istiwaa is known and how is unknown and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.

      وهذا هو اللفظ الصحيح : ( الإستواء غير مجهول والكيف غير معقول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة )

      The correct wording, as noted by Al-Qurtubi in his Tafsir is: Al-'istiwaa is not unknown and how is not understood and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.

      In essence, when you closely examine the two, it seems they mean the same thing.

      Anway, like Ghazali said, I usually do not indulge in these discussions. But your statement about it being from the Al-Majaaz is something which caught my attention.
      Watch those eyes

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      • #18
        Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

        Originally posted by الغزالي View Post
        السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

        I don't like to discuss these topics, but anyways as there exist lots of confusion, I will add to this from the tafseer of Ibn Katheer. And there is no benefit in delving into these discussions.

        وقوله ( الرحمن على العرش استوى ) : تقدم الكلام على ذلك في سورة الأعراف ، بما أغنى عن إعادته أيضا ، وأن المسلك الأسلم في ذلك طريقة السلف ، إمرار ما جاء في ذلك من الكتاب والسنة من غير تكييف ولا تحريف ، ولا تشبيه ، ولا تعطيل ، ولا تمثيل .

        And his statement, الرحمن على العرش استوى
        The discussion has already been presented on this in Surah Al Araf, with which returning to it will satisfy. The safest way in this is the way of the predecessors. Passing through with what came in that from the Qur'an and the Sunnah without descriptive designation, distortion, anthropomorphization (ascription of human characteristics to God), denying, or likening.

        http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...ano=20&ayano=5
        I believe this is what the majority of Imams believed and what Al-Qurtubi mentioned. And Allah knows best.
        Watch those eyes

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        • #19
          Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

          Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
          You might have missed the post where I quoted the Arabic from Tafsir Al-Qurtubi. But it is from that Tafsir. Imam Al-Qurtubi, I am sure you know, was a Maaliki and he mentions this quote along with the three opinions I paraphrased from his Tafsir as to what the people have believed regarding this, and similar, Verses.

          Imam Maalik's saying is often noted in the words

          هذا هو اللفظ المشهور : ( الاستواء معلوم والكيف مجهول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة )

          Al-'istiwaa is known and how is unknown and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.

          وهذا هو اللفظ الصحيح : ( الإستواء غير مجهول والكيف غير معقول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة )

          The correct wording, as noted by Al-Qurtubi in his Tafsir is: Al-'istiwaa is not unknown and how is not understood and faith in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.

          In essence, when you closely examine the two, it seems they mean the same thing.

          Anway, like Ghazali said, I usually do not indulge in these discussions. But your statement about it being from the Al-Majaaz is something which caught my attention.
          this must be misinterpretation; comments saying that 'we believe istiwa but the how is unknown' can be easily misunderstood; basically what it means is that we accept what Allah says [that Allah is established on the throne, but we do not say how and we do not interpret, which includes a literal interpretation too; this is the way to understand imam Maaliks statement

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

            Originally posted by Abu Yusuff View Post
            this must be misinterpretation; comments saying that 'we believe istiwa but the how is unknown' can be easily misunderstood; basically what it means is that we accept what Allah says [that Allah is established on the throne, but we do not say how and we do not interpret, which includes a literal interpretation too; this is the way to understand imam Maaliks statement
            And another salafi website arguing against the sunni's that perform tafwid - something shias' dont do either, but there's so much infighting

            Tafwid literally means to relegate, or to entrust someone with something. It is found in the ayah, “…my affair I commit (ufawwidu) to Allah…” (40:44).
            For the scholars of kalam it means to relegate the meanings of the Attributes of Allah without explaining them or discussing them. This was unknown to the early scholars and doesn’t seem to have appeared until the time of al-Shahrastani, Ghazali, and Razi (d. 547, 505, and 612AH respectively).
            They made tafwid because of the false conviction that the Attributes could not be understood in a literal manner or it would lead to anthropomorphism, and the realization that the early scholars of Islam had never been exposed to the Aristotelian logic and cosmology upon which they based this conviction.
            This led them to say that the earlier generations had no knowledge of the Sifaat and that they were “too pious and holy” to understand them, and thus made tafwid, whereas the ‘refined’ and ’sophisticated’ scholars of kalam came to make it more academic.
            To make tafwid is to basically say the Attributes of Allah are like random letters, i.e. when Allah says He has a “yadd” (hand) He may as well just have said “Alif Laam Meem” because we don’t know what it means and we ‘relegate’ it to Allah. This is in direct contradiction to what Imam Maalik said, that isitiwaa is KNOWN but the kayf (how) is unknown. When one makes tafwid he says the meaning is also unknown. And this is what is meant by the copious narrations from the early scholars which all basically say in regards to the narrations of Allah’s Attributes, “pass them on as they have come, we believe in them, and narrate them, without any kayf.”
            If Imam Maalik’s narration was in support of tafwid he would have never said istiwaa is known and the kayf is unknown. He wouldn’t need to specify the kayf if the meaning was also unknown (as is the case in tafwid).
            Ibn Taymiyyah said in al-’Aql wan-Naql,


            http://www.saheefah.org/2007/12/01/t...ers-of-tafwid/

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

              leave it out bro; what you trying to do?; start a salafi sufi war??? :D

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                Lol brother, i think it's more of a salafi - sunni debate

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                  Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
                  Lol brother, i think it's more of a salafi - sunni debate
                  I know but saying that just inflames it even more! :D

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
                    Lol brother, i think it's more of a salafi - sunni debate
                    the ones most deserving of being called 'sunnis' are salafis. who else? barelvis? Deobandis?
                    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                      Originally posted by shay5 View Post
                      this is funny quip you displayed..also you have futile minds about placement and Allah..you cannot even imagine..
                      i don't need to imagine anything. Allah is above the throne. End of the story. No imagination needed.
                      You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                      You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                        Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
                        Asalamualikum,

                        I am not trying to make another thread here, but my own view is that we can not describe Allah swt by means of direction. He created space, position, and direction - these are all terms to describe limited contingent forms of existence. Before he created the universe, was he 'above' or 'below' anything? If not, then he must have created everything 'below' him, and so he himself must be contained in something, which is illogical.

                        However, i keep hearing different muslim brothers and sisters here contradict. Is it IJMAH or are there differences in opinion?

                        And is it true Allah swt has fingers, because this is now really confusing me, when people say he literally has fingers, but not like out fingers, but a limited defined actual form.

                        :salams:

                        There was never any dispute among muslims about Allah being above His throne until the emergence of the mutakalimun. These people were influenced by greek/aristotelian logic to such an extent it become the foundation of how to understand the religion ie aql dictates our understanding of Allah and His religion. The effects of their doctrine led them to reject, deny and misinterpret most of the attributes of Allah

                        When the prophet asked the slave girl “ayna Allah? (Where is Allah)?” she replied “fee* sama’ (above the sky).” He , accepted this and said “she is a believing woman. Isn't this sufficient enough ? If i were to ask you was the prophet :saw: wrong in approving the answer she gave to his question ?

                        Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                        i don't need to imagine anything. Allah is above the throne. End of the story. No imagination needed.
                        "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
                        those that are apparent and those that are hidden

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                          Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                          i don't need to imagine anything. Allah is above the throne. End of the story. No imagination needed.
                          Exactly no need to ask any more questions when the answer is already known
                          "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
                          those that are apparent and those that are hidden

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                            Acki, this benefits not the laymans eman in any way. No point in us discussing this. Let it be discussed by the people of knowledge if at all.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                              Originally posted by AbuDarda View Post
                              Acki, this benefits not the laymans eman in any way. No point in us discussing this. Let it be discussed by the people of knowledge if at all.
                              It's actually a simple matter and all we have to do is to follow what the prophet :saw: believed in without adding anything on top of it. Now the real question is why are people not willing to accept the approval of the prophet :saw: with regards to this issue ?

                              As muslims aren't we supposed to affirm everything the prophet conveyed to us about Allah ? the answer the slave girl gave was enough to set her free and confirm her emaan as a believer, isn't this a clear indication why it is very important to have the correct creed about this topic. I mean her answer confirmed that she was a muslim what does this say about those who deny that Allah is above the heavens, above His throne ?

                              I fail to understand why some muslims are having a hard time accepting that Allah is above the heavens, above the throne, when the evidence points to this fact. Allah has mentioned it in His book, the prophet :saw: has also verifyied this, the salaf , the 4 imams, etc all of them affirmed that Allah is above the heavens, above His throne. What more is there to do other than to afffirm this belief ?
                              "O Allah!, Forgive all my sins, great and small, the first and the last,
                              those that are apparent and those that are hidden

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Is there a ijma on Allah swt being above the throne ?

                                Originally posted by AbuDarda View Post
                                Acki, this benefits not the laymans eman in any way. No point in us discussing this. Let it be discussed by the people of knowledge if at all.
                                I don't remember the slave girl whom the prophet saw asked being a scholar? Or am I mistaken?
                                You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                                You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                                Comment

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