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A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

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  • Nassa
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    What about those who say he literally has a shin, but not like our shin?

    well that is only ok if one leaves the entire meaning of the 'how' to Allah i.e, consider any form of bodily part or anything we can imagine to not be that shin!, but this is the dangerous way to believe as it can easily lead many to think that it is a shin with a difference like that of an ant and elephant!

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by thisissultan View Post
    Yes the way i put it keeps you safe from entertaining a human-centric meaning and safe from assuming an incorrect figurative meaning, only he knows what he fully means when he says what he says about himself thus the phrase "In a way that suits his majesty", just as much as he see's in a way that suits his majesty, i.e nothing like what we know of or can compare to.
    MaashALlah that's right bro; remember; islamq&a is the literalist aqeedah!

    also although we cannot say for certain what Allah meant, yet even Imams like imam Ahmad agreed that if it is necessary to interpret these unclear words then it is ok, so once people start interpreting in a litteral way, it is ok to suggest meanings [but this is left to Scholars ofcourse] that makes it clear it is not a literal meaning, such as 'Allah decending' meaning Allah's rahma descending etc,

    Leave a comment:


  • shunno
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    My viewpoint will be Allah might take space since he has the mightiest beautiful throne.
    I am not sure where he is;
    Then again, the only thing u should know that he is watching all of ur(ummah community's) monkey business

    Leave a comment:


  • bestoflights
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    In the name of Allah, the most beneficient the most merciful.

    I had a question that's been making me think, it is to do with the descending hadith. I would be grateful for anyone to clarify for me.

    Bukhari:
    1145( Abu Hurairah)
    “The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

    Points of contention:

    1. If Allah swt created space and movement, why would he be subject to the very creation he himself created?
    2. If he created space , why would he himself be limited to a location in space and be able to move from area x to area y, was he also limited before creating it, and if he wasn't why then subject himself to limitations?
    3. Why would Allah swt require movement, when he is free of all need?
    4. Could he still be God and be limited by time and distance and space - attributes he himself created?
    Salamun 'Alaika

    May Allah gives HIS RAHMAT to you -

    Please read -

    http://bestoflights.blogspot.com/201...allah.html?m=1

    Leave a comment:


  • thisissultan
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by Abu Yusuff View Post
    there are two ways to deal with this, one is your way but we must not entertain even a possibility of it being literal

    and 2, if people start going astray arguing that it is literal then we must assert that it is not literal

    the former way is the way of the salaf and the latter way is the way of the khalaf, i.e, when devient aqeedahs began to emerge it was necessary to interpret it in a way people understand that there is no remote possibility of it ever being literal
    Yes the way i put it keeps you safe from entertaining a human-centric meaning and safe from assuming an incorrect figurative meaning, only he knows what he fully means when he says what he says about himself thus the phrase "In a way that suits his majesty", just as much as he see's in a way that suits his majesty, i.e nothing like what we know of or can compare to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jannah2
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by thisissultan View Post
    I do not mention whether he does so literally or not just that he does so in a way that suits his majesty whatever way that is(only know to him alone) as he has said in the Quran. It is like asking me what did the King say? and i answer: The King has said what the King has said. I don't mention what the King has said or how he has said, just that he has said what he has said and left it at that.
    this is not quite right bro, but your nearly there

    the traditional way to understand this is to leave the entire meaning to Allah [swt] and not consider even a possibility of it being litteral; if you say 'he descends in a way only He knows', yet you are saying 'He descends' and descending is a coming down movement, and leaving the entire meaning of the words itself to ALlah is basically to consider the words metaphorical and only knows what He meant by them

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Yusuff
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by thisissultan View Post
    I do not mention whether he does so literally or not just that he does so in a way that suits his majesty whatever way that is(only know to him alone) as he has said in the Quran. It is like asking me what did the King say? and i answer: The King has said what the King has said. I don't mention what the King has said or how he has said, just that he has said what he has said and left it at that.
    there are two ways to deal with this, one is your way but we must not entertain even a possibility of it being literal

    and 2, if people start going astray arguing that it is literal then we must assert that it is not literal

    the former way is the way of the salaf and the latter way is the way of the khalaf, i.e, when devient aqeedahs began to emerge it was necessary to interpret it in a way people understand that there is no remote possibility of it ever being literal

    Leave a comment:


  • thisissultan
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by Jannah2 View Post
    this is wrong bro; Allah does not literally ascend or descend in any way; these are metaphorical statements!; there are unfortunately two different aqeedahs out there competing with one another; one of them [that islamq&a site] gets it very very wrong in these matters
    I do not mention whether he does so literally or not just that he does so in a way that suits his majesty whatever way that is(only know to him alone) as he has said in the Quran. It is like asking me what did the King say? and i answer: The King has said what the King has said. I don't mention what the King has said or how he has said, just that he has said what he has said and left it at that.

    To not complicate things just remember that he is above his throne in a way that suits his majesty and descends in a way that suits his majesty, the same way that he see's all and hears all and knows all at one and the same time unlike his creation, and there is non-likened unto him. We will never completely understand it, we have a better chance at understanding quantum entanglement than this.

    Leave a comment:


  • thisissultan
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    Thank you so much for spending so much time giving me information,

    I am a little confused. If Allah swt is the one who created space, position, direction, why is he then attributed to being 'above' ? Surely he can not be described by means of direction?

    Before Allah swt created anything, where was he? Surely it was he who created 'where' and existed before there was a where.

    When we says he see's all and hear all, we do not say he has eyes or ears, but he see's and hears metaphorically in his absolute knowledge of everything.
    A King can be above his subjects without meaning a specific altitude. A commander can be above foot soldiers without being physically above them(i.e In rank, knowledge, power etc) The sun can set without it actually setting, i hope you can see the pattern here. The chair(i.e creation) may only understand certain things within it's means of understanding them.

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    I'm a little confused, don't some people say he has a face?
    Take the following statements, "the face of war is grime", even though war does not have a face. What is a face if not a front/manifestation of a property(namely beauty).

    Leave a comment:


  • Jannah2
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    What about those who say he literally has a shin, but not like our shin?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jannah2
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    I'm a little confused, don't some people say he has a face?

    well they sort of do; if they say He has a nose, eyes [two eyes at that! :D] then that's like a face

    read that link by al-mukhtar and you'll get the viewpoint of the majority of Scholars

    Leave a comment:


  • abdulmalik786
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by logicalislam View Post
    In the name of Allah, the most beneficient the most merciful.

    I had a question that's been making me think, it is to do with the descending hadith. I would be grateful for anyone to clarify for me.

    Bukhari:
    1145( Abu Hurairah)
    “The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

    Points of contention:

    1. If Allah swt created space and movement, why would he be subject to the very creation he himself created?
    2. If he created space , why would he himself be limited to a location in space and be able to move from area x to area y, was he also limited before creating it, and if he wasn't why then subject himself to limitations?
    3. Why would Allah swt require movement, when he is free of all need?
    4. Could he still be God and be limited by time and distance and space - attributes he himself created?
    I have a question about that hadith that is confusing me. When Allah swt says every night ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”, why can't we hear it. If we are not supposed to hear it then why does he say it every night? Who is the addressee. Is it also a metaphor?

    Leave a comment:


  • logicalislam
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by Nassa View Post
    Im afraid that view above by Ibn Taymiyya is wrong; it infact is kufr [as it regards Allah to be like creation [as creation can occupy something! and creation has a direction such as it can be 'above' or below' etc] but we do not say they are kaafir due to the tawil involved [in an attempt to come to the truth, they were genuinely mistaken]

    the correct meaning is that Allah's created Rahma descends!

    read all about these seemingly metaphorical statements in link:

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/32964
    What about those who say he literally has a shin, but not like our shin?

    Leave a comment:


  • logicalislam
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by Jannah2 View Post
    there are attributes of Allah such as seeing, hearing etc, but even these get cancelled out when we get near to infinity [i.e, out of the realms of the known universe and thinking] so the attributes are only known contingently, but those above are not attributes
    I'm a little confused, don't some people say he has a face?

    Leave a comment:


  • logicalislam
    replied
    Re: A question about Allah swt ascending or descending

    Originally posted by thisissultan View Post
    To not complicate things just remember that he is above his throne in a way that suits his majesty and descends in a way that suits his majesty, the same way that he see's all and hears all and knows all at one and the same time unlike his creation, and there is non-likened unto him. We will never completely understand it, we have a better chance at understanding quantum entanglement than this.
    Thank you so much for spending so much time giving me information,

    I am a little confused. If Allah swt is the one who created space, position, direction, why is he then attributed to being 'above' ? Surely he can not be described by means of direction?

    Before Allah swt created anything, where was he? Surely it was he who created 'where' and existed before there was a where.

    When we says he see's all and hear all, we do not say he has eyes or ears, but he see's and hears metaphorically in his absolute knowledge of everything.
    Last edited by logicalislam; 09-05-15, 06:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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