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Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

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  • #31
    Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

    Originally posted by Spicen View Post
    Salam Musa Sadr,
    Youre here. As i said in an earlier in a post, she probably heard it from a Yassiri Shia or Akhbari Shia.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghurabiya

    I think it was this group.
    "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."

    "Nothing protects the rights of the minority like the tyranny of the majority"

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

      The Ghurabiyya Shia had the following beliefs:

      They believed God’s knowledge is temporally produced.

      They believed God does not know anything until after he creates it.

      They believed God may change his mind about matters just like a person who acquires one opinion after another. This belief was an extreme form of*Bada’They believed that Ali was supposed to be the*Messenger*and*Prophet*of God.

      They believed that God dispatched the angel Gabriel to Ali and had ordered him to take the*Qur'an*to Ali, but Gabriel turned away from him with the message and went to Muhammad due to his enthusiasm for him, or by mistake on his part due to being confused by the exact similitude between Muhammad and Ali and (consciously or not) is said to have revealed and transmitted the Qur'anic message to Muhammad instead of to Ali.*When Gabriel returned to God, God said, “Were it not that the*Quraysh*would say that the Lord of Muhammad is irresolute, I would send you to Ali once again and I would dismiss Muhammad. But go instead back to Muhammad and tell him I am appointing Ali to share prophecy with him as long as both shall live, and say: “but you are only a warner (i.e. Muhammad) and for every nation there is a guide (i.e. Ali).” When Gabriel came back to Muhammad and informed him of the message of God, Muhammad said to Ali at that moment, “You are to me in the position of Harun (Aaron) to Musa (Moses) except that there will not be a prophet after me.”They believed that Muhammad was a warner and Ali was a guide by drawing upon further support from the words of God in the Qur'an: “Can they be like those who accept a clear sign from their Lord and there follows him (i.e Muhammad) a witness (i.e. Ali) from Him.“They believed they were justified in cursing Gabriel, for the reason of Gabriel going to Muhammad instead of Ali.

      They believed that it had been verified in a report that Ali was the partner of Muhammad in prophecy during his lifetime just as Aaron was the partner of Moses in the apostleship. For that reason Muhammad said, “No prophet after me” but did not say, “no prophet alongside me,” since Gabriel visited them both together with the revelation.

      They believed that when Muhammad died, the inspiration was withdrawn from Ali.They believed that the*Imamate*is only restricted to the offspring of Ali.

      They believed that the descendents of Fatimah*and the other descendents of Ali all have an equal right to the Imamate.

      They believed the descendents of Ali are from the lineages of 5 people:*Hasan ibn Ali,*Husayn ibn Ali, Umar, al-Abbas and Muhammad.They believed that the Imam is anyone who rises from among the descendents of Ali with sword unsheathed, summoning to the Qur'an and the*Sunnah*of Muhammad and who is just and knowledgeable.



      Naudhubillah
      "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."

      "Nothing protects the rights of the minority like the tyranny of the majority"

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

        Originally posted by candyapple View Post
        If you personally don't believe such that's fine.

        But I have debated with shias and it's come from their mouths. Weather the jibreel situation was just a personal take from the Shia I was debating with I don't know, but the impression I had was that they believed it as a group.

        And as for the story of A'isha and the goat you can deny that til your face turns blue. I know that the talk amongst the 12rz. I really couldn't careless if you're denying it. I spoke to them so I would know. Also to add to this story they believe the missing parts contained crucial verses that support the shiite view.

        Next thing you're gunna say is shias never insult A'isha, right? It all falls under the same category.
        I don't curse aisha but I disagree with her and the nobility that Sunnis place upon her.

        I really don't know who you were debating with but they are definitely not imami Shias if they gave you the impression that Gabriel was actually meant to reveal the message to imam Ali. Because in our belief , there is only 1 God and that is Allah , Muhammed is his message and then his progeny (ahlul bayt) which are also our12 imams helped guide the Muslims after the death of the prophet.

        Ayatollah khaimeini made a fatwa outlawing the cursing of um Al momineen Aisha and the Sahaba of the prophet .

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

          Originally posted by candyapple View Post
          The Ghurabiyya Shia had the following beliefs:

          They believed God’s knowledge is temporally produced.

          They believed God does not know anything until after he creates it.

          They believed God may change his mind about matters just like a person who acquires one opinion after another. This belief was an extreme form of*Bada’They believed that Ali was supposed to be the*Messenger*and*Prophet*of God.

          They believed that God dispatched the angel Gabriel to Ali and had ordered him to take the*Qur'an*to Ali, but Gabriel turned away from him with the message and went to Muhammad due to his enthusiasm for him, or by mistake on his part due to being confused by the exact similitude between Muhammad and Ali and (consciously or not) is said to have revealed and transmitted the Qur'anic message to Muhammad instead of to Ali.*When Gabriel returned to God, God said, “Were it not that the*Quraysh*would say that the Lord of Muhammad is irresolute, I would send you to Ali once again and I would dismiss Muhammad. But go instead back to Muhammad and tell him I am appointing Ali to share prophecy with him as long as both shall live, and say: “but you are only a warner (i.e. Muhammad) and for every nation there is a guide (i.e. Ali).” When Gabriel came back to Muhammad and informed him of the message of God, Muhammad said to Ali at that moment, “You are to me in the position of Harun (Aaron) to Musa (Moses) except that there will not be a prophet after me.”They believed that Muhammad was a warner and Ali was a guide by drawing upon further support from the words of God in the Qur'an: “Can they be like those who accept a clear sign from their Lord and there follows him (i.e Muhammad) a witness (i.e. Ali) from Him.“They believed they were justified in cursing Gabriel, for the reason of Gabriel going to Muhammad instead of Ali.

          They believed that it had been verified in a report that Ali was the partner of Muhammad in prophecy during his lifetime just as Aaron was the partner of Moses in the apostleship. For that reason Muhammad said, “No prophet after me” but did not say, “no prophet alongside me,” since Gabriel visited them both together with the revelation.

          They believed that when Muhammad died, the inspiration was withdrawn from Ali.They believed that the*Imamate*is only restricted to the offspring of Ali.

          They believed that the descendents of Fatimah*and the other descendents of Ali all have an equal right to the Imamate.

          They believed the descendents of Ali are from the lineages of 5 people:*Hasan ibn Ali,*Husayn ibn Ali, Umar, al-Abbas and Muhammad.They believed that the Imam is anyone who rises from among the descendents of Ali with sword unsheathed, summoning to the Qur'an and the*Sunnah*of Muhammad and who is just and knowledgeable.



          Naudhubillah
          That's a misguided offshoot of Shiism . Really instead of debating with these so called 'Shia' friends that you have and instead of looking up extinct sects in Shiism and making up rumours , just ask me questions and il be happy to answer truthfully.

          May god bless you all.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Marcus_ View Post
            Why is there a divide in Islam? What are the differences? Is Gaza sunni or shi'ite?
            assalamualaikum.

            Gaza is sunni but Shiah from Iran who protect them the most not Saudi Arabia (sunni) or Egypt (sunni). I never meet any shiah before, but as long as they believe in allah and prophet Muhammad SAW as final messenger. I consider them as my brother and sister. If there are lot of difference in Sunni and Syiah I think we should discuss it as brother and sister. Discuss nicely and find the solution.

            I believe Sunni vs Syiah is Zionist propaganda to spread hate among Muslim.

            Allahu alam.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

              Originally posted by rahmat89 View Post
              assalamualaikum.

              Gaza is sunni but Shiah from Iran who protect them the most not Saudi Arabia (sunni) or Egypt (sunni). I never meet any shiah before, but as long as they believe in allah and prophet Muhammad SAW as final messenger. I consider them as my brother and sister. If there are lot of difference in Sunni and Syiah I think we should discuss it as brother and sister. Discuss nicely and find the solution.

              I believe Sunni vs Syiah is Zionist propaganda to spread hate among Muslim.

              Allahu alam.
              I will never consider someone who makes lies against the mothers of the believers, and the greatest sahaba + closest friends, advisors, and confidants, to be my brother/sister. Fiqhi difference is one thing, destructive deviance is another. Trust me, the sunni shia "divide" is not just some propaganda. 'Practicing' Sunnis and 'practicing' Shias, for the most part, are irreconcilable.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

                Originally posted by Musa Sadr View Post
                I don't curse aisha but I disagree with her and the nobility that Sunnis place upon her.

                I really don't know who you were debating with but they are definitely not imami Shias if they gave you the impression that Gabriel was actually meant to reveal the message to imam Ali. Because in our belief , there is only 1 God and that is Allah , Muhammed is his message and then his progeny (ahlul bayt) which are also our12 imams helped guide the Muslims after the death of the prophet.

                Ayatollah khaimeini made a fatwa outlawing the cursing of um Al momineen Aisha and the Sahaba of the prophet .
                You may not curse A'isha but alot of Shia's do and they make no discretion about it. Also if you aren't condemning a fellow shiite to stop with the insults (if they ever do it infront of you) then you are a part of that package aren't you if you remain neutral when they start cursing.

                But if you do condemn their offensive behaviour then that's good.

                I don't have much respect for the shias I have debated with. These guys are very very ill.

                Also you speak of Imamate. If you believe your imams are infallible then that itself is absolutely haraam.
                "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."

                "Nothing protects the rights of the minority like the tyranny of the majority"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

                  Originally posted by Musa Sadr View Post
                  That's a misguided offshoot of Shiism . Really instead of debating with these so called 'Shia' friends that you have and instead of looking up extinct sects in Shiism and making up rumours , just ask me questions and il be happy to answer truthfully.

                  May god bless you all.
                  They're not my friends. Let's clear that up.

                  Ok I do have a question.

                  Why do you disagree on the caliphate of Abu Bakr?
                  "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."

                  "Nothing protects the rights of the minority like the tyranny of the majority"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    assalamualaikum..
                    okay so we have different opinion :)

                    my answer for it, is: not all sunni are good Muslim (example: wahabi in Saudi Arabia). and not all Syiah are bad.

                    I know in Islamic history Ali bin Abu thalib R.A. get angry to some people who think He deserve to be khalifah more than Abu Bakar R.A., Umar RA, Utsman RA. but He still think they are Muslim. Am I right? Abu Bakar RA still think they are Muslim right?

                    2 different opinion about who deserve to be the khalifah Ali R.A. or Abu bakar R.A. that is the history behind sunny and shiah right? Correct me if I was wrong. thank you :)

                    allahu alam.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Foodadad View Post

                      I will never consider someone who makes lies against the mothers of the believers, and the greatest sahaba + closest friends, advisors, and confidants, to be my brother/sister. Fiqhi difference is one thing, destructive deviance is another. Trust me, the sunni shia "divide" is not just some propaganda. 'Practicing' Sunnis and 'practicing' Shias, for the most part, are irreconcilable.
                      assalamualaikum..
                      okay so we have different opinion :)

                      my answer for it, is: not all sunni are good Muslim (example: wahabi in Saudi Arabia). and not all Syiah are bad.

                      I know in Islamic history Ali bin Abu thalib R.A. get angry to some people who think He deserve to be khalifah more than Abu Bakar R.A., Umar RA, Utsman RA. but He still think they are Muslim. Am I right? Abu Bakar RA still think they are Muslim right?

                      2 different opinion about who deserve to be the khalifah Ali R.A. or Abu bakar R.A. that is the history behind sunny and shiah right? Correct me if I was wrong. thank you :)

                      allahu alam.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

                        Originally posted by rahmat89 View Post
                        assalamualaikum..
                        okay so we have different opinion :)

                        my answer for it, is: not all sunni are good Muslim (example: wahabi in Saudi Arabia). and not all Syiah are bad.

                        I know in Islamic history Ali bin Abu thalib R.A. get angry to some people who think He deserve to be khalifah more than Abu Bakar R.A., Umar RA, Utsman RA. but He still think they are Muslim. Am I right? Abu Bakar RA still think they are Muslim right?

                        2 different opinion about who deserve to be the khalifah Ali R.A. or Abu bakar R.A. that is the history behind sunny and shiah right? Correct me if I was wrong. thank you :)

                        allahu alam.
                        Shi'ism has become far more than just 'who deserves to be khalifah', and you know it. If you know enough to say that's where it might have began, then you also know what it has become over time (and not very much time I might add, though they are still changing e.g. mat'am is recent iirc), and exactly what I am talking about. Don't try to deflect the conversation by bringing in people we aren't talking about.
                        Funnily enough, even in the time of Ali RA himself there were those who wanted to worship him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

                          Originally posted by candyapple View Post
                          They're not my friends. Let's clear that up.

                          Ok I do have a question.

                          Why do you disagree on the caliphate of Abu Bakr?
                          Well, we believe that the way he was appointed as the caliph was unfair ( The event at Saqifa ).

                          We also see the importance of the Ahlul Bayt from the hadith of Thaqalayn.

                          Therefore, who else would have been fitter to guide the muslim ummah other than imam Ali (as), seeing as he was part of ahlul bayt, he was raised in the house hold of the prophet (pbuh), he was the first male to accept islam , the prophet trusted him with Fatima (as).
                          Last edited by Musa Sadr; 01-05-15, 02:25 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

                            Originally posted by Foodadad View Post
                            Shi'ism has become far more than just 'who deserves to be khalifah', and you know it. If you know enough to say that's where it might have began, then you also know what it has become over time (and not very much time I might add, though they are still changing e.g. mat'am is recent iirc), and exactly what I am talking about. Don't try to deflect the conversation by bringing in people we aren't talking about.
                            Funnily enough, even in the time of Ali RA himself there were those who wanted to worship him.
                            Youre speaking about the followers of Abdullah ibn Saba and they have nothing to do with Shia's theyre completely ghulut and misguided.

                            We dont worship Ali thank you very much, we worship Allah and Allah alone. I think I know more about my belief's than you do.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

                              Originally posted by Musa Sadr View Post
                              I don't curse aisha but I disagree with her and the nobility that Sunnis place upon her.

                              I really don't know who you were debating with but they are definitely not imami Shias if they gave you the impression that Gabriel was actually meant to reveal the message to imam Ali. Because in our belief , there is only 1 God and that is Allah , Muhammed is his message and then his progeny (ahlul bayt) which are also our12 imams helped guide the Muslims after the death of the prophet.

                              Ayatollah khaimeini made a fatwa outlawing the cursing of um Al momineen Aisha and the Sahaba of the prophet .

                              You disagree with the noblity placed on her? She is the wife of the Prophet :saw: , his most beloved wife after Khadijah [May Allah be pleased with both of them], she is mother of the believers Simple fact is, Aisha does not need the approval of Shia regarding any of her actions. She was the wife of the Prophet :saw: , she learnt Quran and his Sunnah directly from him, she had a brilliant mind and was among the best scholars from the sahaba, whom even other sahaba would go to learn from.
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                              • #45
                                Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

                                Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
                                You disagree with the noblity placed on her? She is the wife of the Prophet :saw: , his most beloved wife after Khadijah [May Allah be pleased with both of them], she is mother of the believers Simple fact is, Aisha does not need the approval of Shia regarding any of her actions. She was the wife of the Prophet :saw: , she learnt Quran and his Sunnah directly from him, she had a brilliant mind and was among the best scholars from the sahaba, whom even other sahaba would go to learn from.
                                Firstly, in the Quran al kareem, we see in Surat At-Tahrim, Allah state's

                                "Allah presents an example of those who disbelieved: the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants but betrayed them, so those prophets did not avail them from Allah at all, and it was said, "Enter the Fire with those who enter." " - 66:10.

                                I believe that within this ayat, Allah is clearly stating that the wives of Prophet's are not guaranteed a place in Jannah simply because they married a Prophet, but instead their place in Jannah is based on merit and good deed. From this ayat we have established that being the wife of a Prophet does not exempt you from tests and punishments which other believers face.

                                Now if we go to Sahih al-Bukhari 5267, we will find the so called story of 'maghafir' which is this,

                                " I heard `Aisha saying, "The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stay for a long while with Zanab bint Jahsh and drink honey at her house. So Hafsa and I decided that if the Prophet (ﷺ) came to anyone of us, she should say him, "I detect the smell of Maghafir (a nasty smelling gum) in you. Have you eaten Maghafir?' " So the Prophet (ﷺ) visited one of them and she said to him similarly. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Never mind, I have taken some honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, but I shall never drink of it anymore." So there was revealed: 'O Prophet ! Why do you ban (for you) that which Allah has made lawful for you . . . If you two (wives of Prophet) turn in repentance to Allah,' (66.1-4) addressing Aisha and Hafsa. 'When the Prophet (ﷺ) disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives.' (66.3) namely his saying: But I have taken some honey." "

                                This story is also found in Sahih Muslim1474 a ;

                                I and Hafsa agreed that one whom Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) would visit first should say: I notice that you have an odour of the Maghafir (gum of mimosa). He (the Holy Prophet) visited one of them and she said to him like this, whereupon he said: I have taken honey in the house of Zainab bint Jabsh and I will never do it again. It was at this (that the following verse was revealed): 'Why do you hold to be forbidden what Allah has made lawful for you... (up to). If you both ('A'isha and Hafsa) turn to Allah" up to:" And when the Prophet confided an information to one of his wives" (lxvi. 3). This refers to his saying: But I have taken honey.

                                I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that this ill mannered behavior is unacceptable, especially toward's the RasoolAllah (pbuh). How can one, tell the Prophet (pbuh) that he smells of a nasty smelling gum?. I believe that this hadith shows the bad nature of both Aisha and Hafsa. Keep in mind that this is not a fabricated-made up hadith, it is 'Sahih Bukhari'. Furthermore, if we move one hadith forward in Sahih Bukhari to 'Sahih al-Bukhari 5268', look at what we find.

                                Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was fond of honey and sweet edible things and (it was his habit) that after finishing the `Asr prayer he would visit his wives and stay with one of them at that time. Once he went to Hafsa, the daughter of `Umar and stayed with her more than usual. I got jealous and asked the reason for that. I was told that a lady of her folk had given her a skin filled with honey as a present, and that she made a syrup from it and gave it to the Prophet (ﷺ) to drink (and that was the reason for the delay). I said, "By Allah we will play a trick on him (to prevent him from doing so)." So I said to Sa`da bint Zam`a "The Prophet (ﷺ) will approach you, and when he comes near you, say: 'Have you taken Maghafir (a bad-smelling gum)?' He will say, 'No.' Then say to him: 'Then what is this bad smell which i smell from you?' He will say to you, 'Hafsa made me drink honey syrup.' Then say: Perhaps the bees of that honey had sucked the juice of the tree of Al-`Urfut.' I shall also say the same. O you, Safiyya, say the same." Later Sa`da said, "By Allah, as soon as he (the Prophet (ﷺ) ) stood at the door, I was about to say to him what you had ordered me to say because I was afraid of you." So when the Prophet (ﷺ) came near Sa`da, she said to him, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Have you taken Maghafir?" He said, "No." She said. "Then what is this bad smell which I detect on you?" He said, "Hafsa made me drink honey syrup." She said, "Perhaps its bees had sucked the juice of Al-`Urfut tree." When he came to me, I also said the same, and when he went to Safiyya, she also said the same. And when the Prophet (ﷺ) again went to Hafsa, she said, 'O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Shall I give you more of that drink?" He said, "I am not in need of it." Sa`da said, "By Allah, we deprived him (of it)." I said to her, "Keep quiet." '

                                Oh look, how shocking, its the story of maghafir repeated again but this time it's only Aisha, being jealous of Hafsa her previous partner in crime and this time she scheme's with Sa'da and Safiyya, to play a trick on RasoolAllah (pbuh) again by telling him that he smells of maghafir. What does this tell us about somebodies akhlaq to be getting this rude to the Prophet (pbuh), who's supposed to be the best and the kindest of people. Also reread the last word's that Aisha uttered, " I said to her, "Keep quiet" " expecting the prophet to never find out about their scheme's. However, Allah the all knowing later revealed this ayat to Muhammed (pbuh) ;

                                And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted." - 66:3

                                Surat at Tahrim was one of the final 10 verses of the Quran that were revealed, therefore meaning that the Prophet (pbuh) had been receiving revelations from Allah for the past 20 year's or so and his wife as stated in the Quran still asked "Who told you this?" when he found out that she informed other of a statement that he confided to her.

                                Now let us see what Allah states in the Quran about how the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) are expected to act and what their punishment's are for acting unjustly/wrongly.

                                O wives of the Prophet, whoever of you should commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and ever is that, for Allah , easy.. - 33:30

                                Here , Allah clearly state's how the punishment of a wife of the Prophet (pbuh) for committing an immorality is double that of a regular woman. This is due to the fact that she is living under the house hold of the Prophet and should be setting an example for other women, she also get's the benefit of living under the household the revelation.

                                Also, all of the wifes of the prophet's are the mothers of the believers. All it mean's is that after the prophet dies nobody else can marry her as she is like their mothers now.

                                That is unless you believe she is the mother of believers because of this hadith:

                                Ref: Sahih Muslim, book 8, hadith number 3426, page 846.

                                ...A'isha took that as a precedent for whatever men she wanted to be able to come to see her. She ordered daughters of her sisters and brothers to give milk to whichever men she wanted to be able to come in to see her. The rest of the wives of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, refused to let anyone come in to them by such nursing. They said, 'No! By Allah! We think that what the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered Sahla bint Suhayl to do was only an indulgence concerning the nursing of Salim alone. No! By Allah! No one will come in upon us by such nursing!'
                                Last edited by Musa Sadr; 01-05-15, 02:54 PM.

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