Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

[candyapple]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

I agree mostly except your point about 'Divine Decree'.

Most shias especially young shias believe in Quran.

Can you imagine how confusing it would be for them if they were taught that Quran is not true? Their sect would die off in a few decades

I believe the lay shia are ignorant so I hope they have an excuse infront of Allah on judgement day.

When you talk to them about the Khalifas and you get to the crux of the matter, (the ones I had debated with) deny it was qadrullah that the Khalifas took their places when they did, and some also hold the belief that Allah meant to give prophethood to Ali but jibreel mistakenly gave it to rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wassallam naudhubillah.

By the way these shias believe that a portion of the Quran is missing because a goat came and consumed it (they don't admit the goat came and consumed personal Quranic notes of A'isha) and they slso believe in two extra surahs- I believe so- yea they believe alot is corrupt with the Quran, plus I have a shia Quranic translation in english and man that doesn't agree with our version!

[candyapple]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

You are ignoring the fact that the old shiaism was Ismaili Shiaism which is different from the modern Imami Shiaism.
The Imami shias to a large extent were invisible for long periods of history. It was Shah Ismail who brought the movement alive.....and forced conversion on Persian sunnis

I can't remember who the jew was that started the process of Shia's back in the days

[ALAS]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

There are many many sects in Islam, however they divide them into two categories Sunni-Shia. Most of shias or Jafaries are twelvers then Zaydies and most of Sunnies are Hanafi then Shafei and ..... These sects are formally recognized at around maybe one century after Hijrah.
Also Sunnies can divide into two categories Ashari and Mutazillah, however I think Mutazillah is very very few nowadays.
Also we have Salafists, generally speaking they are not like Sunnies. They differ somehow.

Most of people of Palestine and Gaza are Shafei Sunnies and also Christians live there. As a matter of fact I think imam Shafei himself was born in Palestine. I doubt any Shia lives in Palestine. Shias are usually near Iraq.

[Spicen]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

I can't remember who the jew was that started the process of Shia's back in the days

You are talking about Abdullah Ibn Saba, he started NOT the Shia sect but the Sabayyi sect. According to shia hadiths, he and his followers were burned by Ali.

[candyapple]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

You are talking about Abdullah Ibn Saba, he started NOT the Shia sect but the Sabayyi sect. According to shia hadiths, he and his followers were burned by Ali.

JazakAllahukhair I will look into that. And yes Abdullah ibn Sabbath lol thank you

[Spicen]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

I believe the lay shia are ignorant so I hope they have an excuse infront of Allah on judgement day.

When you talk to them about the Khalifas and you get to the crux of the matter, (the ones I had debated with) deny it was qadrullah that the Khalifas took their places when they did, and some also hold the belief that Allah meant to give prophethood to Ali but jibreel mistakenly gave it to rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wassallam naudhubillah.

By the way these shias believe that a portion of the Quran is missing because a goat came and consumed it (they don't admit the goat came and consumed personal Quranic notes of A'isha) and they slso believe in two extra surahs- I believe so- yea they believe alot is corrupt with the Quran, plus I have a shia Quranic translation in english and man that doesn't agree with our version!

I have to disagree largely to this.
They of course deny the right of Khilafa of Abu Bakr. No doubt about that.
The story about Jibrail is completely false. I have seen that they defend Muhammad(S) from kufr in debates.
About the Quran it is a disputed matter, some scholars say tahreef happened(Qummi, Ayashi) some say it didnt happen. I think more extreme shias in Pakistan and Hyederabad do believe in Tahreef but im not sure. Its difficult to seperate Taqiyya from truth.
The two extra "verses" are: Al-Wilayah and Al-Nurayn.
Both were made by an Indian author i think, much later than Shah Ismail 1 conquered iran. So i think it is untrue.
I have also heard that the Iranian Quran differs from the standard. Again im not sure.

Can u give me the download link of that Quran.

And you have to provide me solid evidence about it. No wahabi/salafi sites please. And no Yassir al-Habib websites. Solidly scholarly evidence

[candyapple]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

I have to disagree largely to this.
They of course deny the right of Khilafa of Abu Bakr. No doubt about that.
The story about Jibrail is completely false. I have seen that they defend Muhammad(S) from kufr in debates.
About the Quran it is a disputed matter, some scholars say tahreef happened(Qummi, Ayashi) some say it didnt happen. I think more extreme shias in Pakistan and Hyederabad do believe in Tahreef but im not sure. Its difficult to seperate Taqiyya from truth.
The two extra "verses" are: Al-Wilayah and Al-Nurayn.
Both were made by an Indian author i think, much later than Shah Ismail 1 conquered iran. So i think it is untrue.
I have also heard that the Iranian Quran differs from the standard. Again im not sure.

Can u give me the download link of that Quran.

And you have to provide me solid evidence about it. No wahabi/salafi sites please. And no Yassir al-Habib websites. Solidly scholarly evidence

The Shia Quran is an actual book I have, not online. I don't know how I aquire it, my siblings told me it it was mine when I found it in my parents home.

I had it since.

And I have personally debated with shias myself so I would know what I'm talking about here but that's fine if you disagree.

And I'm not getting any of my info's from anyone but shias here.

[Spicen]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

The Shia Quran is an actual book I have, not online. I don't know how I aquire it, my siblings told me it it was mine when I found it in my parents home.

I had it since.

And I have personally debated with shias myself so I would know what I'm talking about here but that's fine if you disagree.

And I'm not getting any of my info's from anyone but shias here.

I think you confused the mainstream usooli shia with these shia: http://akhbari.org/English/index.htm

Akhbari shia are a minority among shia and only they display their (heretic) believes openly. There are differences between the two groups.
I think you debated with them and not the mainstream

[Musa Sadr]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

I believe the lay shia are ignorant so I hope they have an excuse infront of Allah on judgement day.

When you talk to them about the Khalifas and you get to the crux of the matter, (the ones I had debated with) deny it was qadrullah that the Khalifas took their places when they did, and some also hold the belief that Allah meant to give prophethood to Ali but jibreel mistakenly gave it to rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wassallam naudhubillah.

By the way these shias believe that a portion of the Quran is missing because a goat came and consumed it (they don't admit the goat came and consumed personal Quranic notes of A'isha) and they slso believe in two extra surahs- I believe so- yea they believe alot is corrupt with the Quran, plus I have a shia Quranic translation in english and man that doesn't agree with our version!

The most ridiculous thing's I have ever heard!. The point's you are making are an insult to me and to Shia's as a whole.

Yes we do disagree with the first 3 caliph's.

No we do not believe that Allah meant to give prophet to Ali but jibreel mistakenly gave it to rasulullah, this is complete false and not once have I ever heard any of our imams or scholars say this.

We do not believe that the Quran is missing, and our imam's clearly stated the completeness as well as the infallibility of the Quran.

[Spicen]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

The most ridiculous thing's I have ever heard!. The point's you are making are an insult to me and to Shia's as a whole.

Yes we do disagree with the first 3 caliph's.

No we do not believe that Allah meant to give prophet to Ali but jibreel mistakenly gave it to rasulullah, this is complete false and not once have I ever heard any of our imams or scholars say this.

We do not believe that the Quran is missing, and our imam's clearly stated the completeness as well as the infallibility of the Quran.

However take a look at this : In Sahih al Bukhari Volume 8, pages 209-210, we read this sermon delivered by Hadhrath Umar during his last Hajj as Khalifa:

"Certainly Allah sent Muhammad with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it”.

"The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am concerned that if time goes on, someone may say, 'By God, we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God;' thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment the Almighty revealed.”

"Stoning is in the Book of God. It is the right punishment for a person who commits adultery if the required witnesses are available, or there was pregnancy without marriage or adultery is admitted."

However , where is the surat on stoning now?.

Salam Musa Sadr,
Youre here. As i said in an earlier in a post, she probably heard it from a Yassiri Shia or Akhbari Shia.

[Musa Sadr]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

Salam Musa Sadr,
Youre here. As i said in an earlier in a post, she probably heard it from a Yassiri Shia or Akhbari Shia.

Salam Spicen,

But even a Yassiri Shia wouldn't make such claims that the angel jibraeel came to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) by mistake (a3oothabillah). I dont really know about Akhbari Shias, I believe that imami/twelever is the true and original representative of Shiism seeing as it makes up over 90% of Shia's.

[Taboo]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

You are ignoring the fact that

i didn't even speak about him, you did, so i am ignoring the conversation that you are having with yourself.

I agree mostly except your point about 'Divine Decree'.

Most shias especially young shias believe in Quran.

Can you imagine how confusing it would be for them if they were taught that Quran is not true? Their sect would die off in a few decades

you can believe in quran without believing in divine decree. people pick and choose ayat and defend those choices even when faced with truth. and imami shias are taught that the quran was tampered with and not in it's original form, btw.

We do not believe that the Quran is missing, and our imam's clearly stated the completeness as well as the infallibility of the Quran.

there are shii ahadith and fatwa that state otherwise

And you have to provide me solid evidence about it. No wahabi/salafi sites please.

this is pure ignorance to accept opinions from imamites, but not from legitimate scholars that are recognised by all of the sects even if they disagree on some things. their opinions are derived from the same texts and their opinion is just as valid.

[candyapple]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

I think you confused the mainstream usooli shia with these shia: http://akhbari.org/English/index.htm

Akhbari shia are a minority among shia and only they display their (heretic) believes openly. There are differences between the two groups.
I think you debated with them and not the mainstream

Possibly.

[candyapple]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

The most ridiculous thing's I have ever heard!. The point's you are making are an insult to me and to Shia's as a whole.

Yes we do disagree with the first 3 caliph's.

No we do not believe that Allah meant to give prophet to Ali but jibreel mistakenly gave it to rasulullah, this is complete false and not once have I ever heard any of our imams or scholars say this.

We do not believe that the Quran is missing, and our imam's clearly stated the completeness as well as the infallibility of the Quran.

If you personally don't believe such that's fine.

But I have debated with shias and it's come from their mouths. Weather the jibreel situation was just a personal take from the Shia I was debating with I don't know, but the impression I had was that they believed it as a group.

And as for the story of A'isha and the goat you can deny that til your face turns blue. I know that the talk amongst the 12rz. I really couldn't careless if you're denying it. I spoke to them so I would know. Also to add to this story they believe the missing parts contained crucial verses that support the shiite view.

Next thing you're gunna say is shias never insult A'isha, right? It all falls under the same category.

[candyapple]

Re: Shi'ite VS sunni Islam

Salam Spicen,

But even a Yassiri Shia wouldn't make such claims that the angel jibraeel came to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) by mistake (a3oothabillah). I dont really know about Akhbari Shias, I believe that imami/twelever is the true and original representative of Shiism seeing as it makes up over 90% of Shia's.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghurabiya

There you go. I wasn't lying in any case.