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Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

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  • Bismil
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Originally posted by misha123 View Post
    Shahadah is the basis for someone being Muslim...that I understand but as you mention turning haram into halal is when a sin turns into kufr...so if one drinks and accepts it as a sin they are still Muslim but if they say it is ok and believe it to be ok then thats Kufr..

    Yes . That is what I said. .

    So on that basis how can someone who kills innocents be a Muslim...there are those on here who declare shia as kafir because they believe in kufr...Quranists reject hadith which makes them non-Muslims...so judgments are made here...but why not on organizations like the TTP who make haram halal...

    Did I say people who kill others without any reason are innocent ? :scratch:

    As far as Shias are concerned , no sane person would say that all shias are out of Islam. Those individual fatwas have NO value. People who are kafir are Not allowed for hajj , at no point in history have shias been disallowed for hajj. Despite a lot of high ranking scholars present throughout history. If we start taking those individual fatwas , then you can bet NO Muslim sect are safe.

    Quranist I have explained before , If you do not have any shariah , what religion are you following ? They following there own wishes and whims.

    What is TTP ?


    Islam to my understanding does not permit the targeting of non combatants yet this is actually a specific tactic of this organization and their scholars justify burning women alive...on what basis can they be considered Muslim?...

    You do not have to go beyond the life of prophet ( pbuh ) to know Islam. He taught us how to pray , also how to fight in battles. Did prophet employ such tactics ?
    If some scholar , says something , that is his opinion .


    Someone who says alcohol is halal is kafir...
    Someone who says hadith aren't necessary is kafir...
    The TTP say its ok to kill women and children...and their faith is for Allah to judge?...
    Someone who says Alcohol is alright is doing kufr . It means that someone if that person has knowledge of the fact that Allah ( swt ) has commanded Alcohol as prohibited and yet he says it is okay , then he falls in that category.

    Thus its about his level of understanding . This is why people say Allah ( swt ) is the judge.

    As far as we can judge , we can do with our limited knowledge , Allah ( swt ) will judge on basis of lots and lots of more factors.
    Mind you Non of the oppressors would go unpunished.

    From our judgement its pretty clear , killing women and children like this is just pathetic.

    Leave a comment:


  • misha123
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Originally posted by Bismil View Post
    Reply is same as above.
    Shahadah is the basis for someone being Muslim...that I understand but as you mention turning haram into halal is when a sin turns into kufr...so if one drinks and accepts it as a sin they are still Muslim but if they say it is ok and believe it to be ok then thats Kufr...

    So on that basis how can someone who kills innocents be a Muslim...there are those on here who declare shia as kafir because they believe in kufr...Quranists reject hadith which makes them non-Muslims...so judgments are made here...but why not on organizations like the TTP who make haram halal...

    Islam to my understanding does not permit the targeting of non combatants yet this is actually a specific tactic of this organization and their scholars justify burning women alive...on what basis can they be considered Muslim?...

    Someone who says alcohol is halal is kafir...
    Someone who says hadith aren't necessary is kafir...
    The TTP say its ok to kill women and children...and their faith is for Allah to judge?...

    Leave a comment:


  • Bismil
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Originally posted by misha123 View Post
    My point is referring to the fact that to my understanding simply saying Shahada isn't confirmation of being Muslim...so the example provided by Nonameakhi is drinking alcohol is a sinful act...but believing it is acceptable to drink alcohol is kufr...belief in kufr is what makes someone a non-Muslim even if they say they are Muslim right?...

    If saying sahadah does Not make one Muslim , then what does ?

    If a person does a major like alcohol , but believes it is wrong , then it remains a major sin , if he starts believing it is not a sin , its kufr because that person is making haram as Halal.


    So my point on hadith rejection is just that...a Quranist for instance would state they believe in Islam and may do so sincerely but the act of rejecting hadith forms disbelief unless i am mistaken...

    A Quranist cannot believe in Islam , without authentic hadeeth , because Quran itself is clearly stating at various places follow the messenger. If authentic Hadeeth are rejected then the whole shariah is torn apart. islam is the only religion today that has its own shariah well preserved. There are numerous things which cannot be understood without hadeeth.

    So would killing of innocents not make someone a non-Muslim if they claim it to be acceptable?...the deliberate targeting of women, children and non combatant males is kufr so if an individual suggests its ok to do this then doesnt this make them a non-Muslim?...

    This matter , neither you nor I can judge . As I mentioned in earlier post , if a person is deliberately killing someone , without just cause , and in the eyes of Allah ( swt ) , then the punishment in hereafter is clearly mentioned in Quran.

    If someone is brainwashing someone , he is equally responsible for the act.


    So the individuals who were involved in the massacre in Peshawar where they deliberately targeted and killed female teachers and unarmed male students is surely an act of Kufr...are the TTP not non-Muslims?...

    Cos killing an innocent and believing it is wrong is a sin...that makes sense...but if one believes a sin to be acceptable then how can this person be considered a Muslim...the same with the individual in Sydney who killed hostages...
    Reply is same as above.

    Leave a comment:


  • misha123
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Originally posted by Bismil View Post
    If a person says shahadah verbally then we have to accept that the person is Muslim. he should get all rights of a Muslim.

    After that His Iman is matter of unseen only Allah ( swt ) knows.

    If a person Kills someone without any reason at all ( in the eyes of Allah swt ) , then the punishment is hell eternally .

    If someone is rejecting hadeeth ? What you mean by that ?

    there are two things here.

    First someone says that that particular hadeeth is weak , or there is no link between narrators , or the narrators are not sound , then rejecting that particular hadeeth .

    Second , if some one says , I do not believe in any hadeeth , just Quran .

    Which one of those you asked ?

    My point is referring to the fact that to my understanding simply saying Shahada isn't confirmation of being Muslim...so the example provided by Nonameakhi is drinking alcohol is a sinful act...but believing it is acceptable to drink alcohol is kufr...belief in kufr is what makes someone a non-Muslim even if they say they are Muslim right?...

    So my point on hadith rejection is just that...a Quranist for instance would state they believe in Islam and may do so sincerely but the act of rejecting hadith forms disbelief unless i am mistaken...

    So would killing of innocents not make someone a non-Muslim if they claim it to be acceptable?...the deliberate targeting of women, children and non combatant males is kufr so if an individual suggests its ok to do this then doesnt this make them a non-Muslim?...

    So the individuals who were involved in the massacre in Peshawar where they deliberately targeted and killed female teachers and unarmed male students is surely an act of Kufr...are the TTP not non-Muslims?...

    Cos killing an innocent and believing it is wrong is a sin...that makes sense...but if one believes a sin to be acceptable then how can this person be considered a Muslim...the same with the individual in Sydney who killed hostages...

    Leave a comment:


  • Bismil
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Originally posted by misha123 View Post
    Actually a question that did occur to me...

    You mention that belief in Allah is the basis on which to determine if someone is Muslim as opposed to actions which make someone sinful...

    So drink is haram but to believe that drinking is acceptable becomes disbelief...someone may claim to believe in Islam but if they reject hadith then they are disbelievers...

    So drinking alcohol would make you sinful...now I understand that killing of non combatants is prohibited by Islam...so surely setting a schoolteacher on fire and believing it is an acceptable act would form disbelief no?...killing someone and knowing it is wrong is sinful but killing someone wrongly and calling it correct would be disbelief or am i mistaken?...
    If a person says shahadah verbally then we have to accept that the person is Muslim. he should get all rights of a Muslim.

    After that His Iman is matter of unseen only Allah ( swt ) knows.

    If a person Kills someone without any reason at all ( in the eyes of Allah swt ) , then the punishment is hell eternally .

    If someone is rejecting hadeeth ? What you mean by that ?

    there are two things here.

    First someone says that that particular hadeeth is weak , or there is no link between narrators , or the narrators are not sound , then rejecting that particular hadeeth .

    Second , if some one says , I do not believe in any hadeeth , just Quran .

    Which one of those you asked ?

    Leave a comment:


  • misha123
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Actually a question that did occur to me...

    You mention that belief in Allah is the basis on which to determine if someone is Muslim as opposed to actions which make someone sinful...

    So drink is haram but to believe that drinking is acceptable becomes disbelief...someone may claim to believe in Islam but if they reject hadith then they are disbelievers...

    So drinking alcohol would make you sinful...now I understand that killing of non combatants is prohibited by Islam...so surely setting a schoolteacher on fire and believing it is an acceptable act would form disbelief no?...killing someone and knowing it is wrong is sinful but killing someone wrongly and calling it correct would be disbelief or am i mistaken?...

    Leave a comment:


  • Saif-Uddin
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    :jkk:

    Leave a comment:


  • misha123
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
    yes a muslim even a bad muslim should be afforded a funeral/burial

    The example I gave was someone who doesn't pray and says he is atheist but on death as he has muslim family they do the rights as per Islam. Not sure what the families role is specifically but generally a non muslim would eb someone who denies Allah swy existence and the janaza prayers are for muslims

    generally there are ulema who believe the hadith and quran verses which say the difference between a muslim and non muslim is the prayer. The conditions are that a person purposefully doesn't pray

    The Peshawar and guy with hostages didn't disbelieve in Allah swt although the actions committed may have been wrong. Sin is to drink alcohol but saying it is haram, to drink and say its allowed would be kufr

    A person who knowingly does a kaafirs janaza would be sinful. The Prophet saw refused to lead the prayers of a person who Allah swt revealed to him was not muslim I recall but don't have the hadith to hand. MAybe someone could post it or let me know if I am mistaken inshallah
    Thanks for the response...that answers my question...

    Leave a comment:


  • nonameakhi
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Originally posted by misha123 View Post
    Thanks for the response...Just to confirm...so everyone who is Muslim should be provided a burial?...

    You mentioned that someone who has never prayed doesnt get a janaza...is that because lack of prayer = disbelief?...if the guy is indeed sane would killing hostage or say the guys killing non combatants in Peshawar be committing actions that can lead to disbelief or are they sins?...

    And are those who are giving Islamic funerals to those who are disbelievers committing sins by doing so?..
    yes a muslim even a bad muslim should be afforded a funeral/burial

    The example I gave was someone who doesn't pray and says he is atheist but on death as he has muslim family they do the rights as per Islam. Not sure what the families role is specifically but generally a non muslim would eb someone who denies Allah swy existence and the janaza prayers are for muslims

    generally there are ulema who believe the hadith and quran verses which say the difference between a muslim and non muslim is the prayer. The conditions are that a person purposefully doesn't pray

    The Peshawar and guy with hostages didn't disbelieve in Allah swt although the actions committed may have been wrong. Sin is to drink alcohol but saying it is haram, to drink and say its allowed would be kufr

    A person who knowingly does a kaafirs janaza would be sinful. The Prophet saw refused to lead the prayers of a person who Allah swt revealed to him was not muslim I recall but don't have the hadith to hand. MAybe someone could post it or let me know if I am mistaken inshallah

    Leave a comment:


  • misha123
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
    we live in strange times and times of fear where often Islamic stance/ruling goes out of the window.

    Generally speaking today we have Islamic funerals for people who are born in muslim households but never prayed and claimed to be atheist which is kufr and if witnessed there can be no janaza

    a person who is sinful (or faasiq as in does wrong but doesn't deny Allah swt) dies a sinful muslim. key word being muslim

    The fellow in the Australia case I don't know personally so can only go on what the news said is that he had mental issues but had been shia and became sunni, as such to deny him a funeral isn't correct
    Thanks for the response...Just to confirm...so everyone who is Muslim should be provided a burial?...

    You mentioned that someone who has never prayed doesnt get a janaza...is that because lack of prayer = disbelief?...if the guy is indeed sane would killing hostage or say the guys killing non combatants in Peshawar be committing actions that can lead to disbelief or are they sins?...

    And are those who are giving Islamic funerals to those who are disbelievers committing sins by doing so?..

    Leave a comment:


  • nonameakhi
    replied
    Re: Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    we live in strange times and times of fear where often Islamic stance/ruling goes out of the window.

    Generally speaking today we have Islamic funerals for people who are born in muslim households but never prayed and claimed to be atheist which is kufr and if witnessed there can be no janaza

    a person who is sinful (or faasiq as in does wrong but doesn't deny Allah swt) dies a sinful muslim. key word being muslim

    The fellow in the Australia case I don't know personally so can only go on what the news said is that he had mental issues but had been shia and became sunni, as such to deny him a funeral isn't correct

    Leave a comment:


  • misha123
    started a topic Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

    Who qualifies for an Islamic funeral?...

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