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Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

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  • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

    Originally posted by daniel_agnostic View Post

    You seem okay again actually, so sorry for offending you. Bye bye once again (for real this time).
    Thanks, no need to apologize no offense taken, Although you may not see this post, I will respond for the sake of others reading, because I think you have me wrong and I need to respond
    Love God and love others

    Comment


    • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

      Originally posted by daniel_agnostic View Post
      Post #135:
      Originally Posted by JerryMyers
      "... love your enemise is not absent from the Quran. The Holy Quran states "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity, will be like a warm friend." (41:34).".
      Okay, it says repel evil with what is best. I can understand your interpreting that as love your enemies, but in my mind's eye it is a subjective verse and can still mean different things to different people; it is not as specific as love your enemies and turn the other cheek if smitten and so on.
      I didn't say love is hate. You are being extreme in exaggeration. Love can, however, appear as hate to some. I didn't say anything about terror; you did. I just quoted part of a verse from the Quran and you came up with your own inference on terror. I had no such thoughts at the time. My point is when a verse is general in nature, it leads to many different interpretations. Love your enemies, turn the other cheek and do good to those who spitefully use you are specific in nature and doesn't lend itself to as much interpretation or give the room that do what's best does for interpretations.
      Originally posted by daniel_agnostic View Post

      I think your sense of right and wrong are inverted if you're able to project such spite on your opponent in a debate just to win the debate. Telling them their love is really hate, and playing the terrorist card on them. If you infer so much hate from Islam then you haven't done your research, yet you've gone to great lengths to preach your beliefs to them on here. So it's a case of you telling them, but not reciprocating the slightest interest in return, right? Nothing to do with establishing right from wrong. It's just to assert yourself as being somehow special, or "saved" even. Hence I wrote Post #144. .
      I think your sense of right and wrong are inverted when you keep saying I've derped myself. What does that mean? You say it a lot. You are the one doing all the inferring here. You are reading too much into my username or should I say not enough, lol.... You are spouting out your misconceptions of me, Pip1 and Christianity, and they you judge me for it. How is that a good thing or doing what is best? And then you want to get in the last word and run, because you appear as not honest enough to say you cannot gainsay the OP.. That is okay if it is the way you want to win. If you must go for real this time, bye then. Jesus still loves you.

      Originally posted by daniel_agnostic View Post

      Good on you for wanting to fight Satan. Look in the mirror, we all see traces of him there, don't you? Stop babbling and look at the fallacies of misdirection etc. in your posts, and the omissions where you just avoid answering some points (mentioned in Post #126 , re: the unanswered points from my reply in Post #118) .

      You have failed, maybe you'll succeed another day, but you've derped yourself into oblivion on this thread.
      Now were these comments really necessary? How is that doing what is best? You should repost what you feel I missed. I assure you I'll address them. May God guide you to truth
      Last edited by Iamsaved; 11-11-15, 01:01 AM.
      Love God and love others

      Comment


      • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

        Originally posted by masterridley View Post
        I posted this in another forum and I did not receive a satisfactory answer. I don't want to hear interpretations and fiqhs coming from fallible people. I want to be shown where it says so in the Qur'an and the ahadith! Thanks in advance.

        ...

        So, we have this from sahih Bukhari:

        8.407: Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet used to invoke Allah with the following invocation: "O my Lord! Forgive my sins and my ignorance and my exceeding the limits of righteousness in all my deeds and what you know better than I. O Allah. Forgive my mistakes, those done intentionally or out of my ignorance or without or with seriousness, and I confess that all such mistakes are done by me. O Allah! Forgive my sins of the past and of the future with I did openly or secretly. You are the One Who makes the things go before and You are the One Who delays them, and You are the Omnipotent."

        ...

        If Muhammad himself was praying for forgiveness for sins that he may have committed, then why do muslims think he's perfect and incapable of sinning? Do they know more than he does? Are they calling him a liar? Cause he certainly seems to think that he's capable of sinning.

        IMO, this doctrine is completely indefensible. In http://islamqa.info/en/42216, nothing is given to support the infallibility of Muhammad with regards to sins. Only the ability of the prophet to convey the message of Allah infallibly is proven extensively (with references to hadith, quran etc)

        ...

        For the rest, the site has only this to say:



        ...

        So it's just a naked appeal to majority opinion of flawed humans. Nothing exists in Islamic scripture to suggest that Muhammad is incapable of sinning in matters unrelated to conveying the Message. (on the contrary, he himself says otherwise). Why then do the 4 schools continue to support this baseless doctrine (along with the majority of muslims)?
        I aint read through the other replies so excuse me if I repeat stuff.

        We believe he's the perfect human and hence incapable of sinning. Allah says: You have indeed in the Messenger of God a beautiful pattern, an excellent example, for anyone who aspires after God and the Last Day, and who engages much in the remembrance of God. (al-Ahzab, 33.21)

        Now if the Prophet PBUH was a sinner, God forbid, then what kinda role model would he be for us? Why would Allah crown him as Uswa Hasana, the best example?

        Say (O Muhammad (pbuh) to mankind): "

        Comment


        • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

          Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
          Yes, Jesus did say the father is greater, but he also thought it not robbery to be equal with God; for instance, Jesus knew he was obviously less than God in position and office, but he knew he was equal in nature and character to God. Look at it this way. My son is subordinate to me by position, function and office, but he is equal in nature to me. This is a spiritually discerned issue that true Christians understand. I don't expect you to nor do I hope to convince you.
          Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
          If Jesus didn't say what he meant and mean what he said, why didn't he say what he meant? lol, good luck answering that one. A guide in the jungle could never say I am the way; he could say I can show you the way. You must learn that there is a difference between being and showing!
          Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
          The point here is that Jesus was and is the fulfillment of Deut. 18:18 and that there is no goal shifting of any sought.
          Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
          Jesus was a prophet but not a messenger. I am not asking you to believe that Jesus is the son of God. God said, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased hear ye Him" And Jesus said God is his father. These are claims made by the father and Jesus himself; so, take that up with God and Jesus not me. You can argue with God's word but I choose not to.
          Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
          God's word is everything. I can say that. If God cannot keep his word, he ceases to be!

          Comment


          • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

            Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
            The question again is, who actually said “not robbery to be equal with God;” ? Jesus himself or someone else ?? And you got your ‘sense of reasoning’ wrong, it should be the son’s position, function and office can be equal to yours but he can never be equal to you in nature. We are all individually unique in nature – spiritually, emotionally and physically..
            This post of yours was the best challenge thus far.
            Okay, that is true, but I meant a child that hasn't grown to maturity, and by nature I meant they are both human and of course a child is not going to have the same position, office and function as the father but they are very equal as persons and human. There really isn't the perfect analogy because God is a mystery and past finding out like His triunity
            Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post

            If you are going to take literally of what Jesus said is what he meant then when Jesus said “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel” he must have meant he was sent for all the lost sheep owned by the people of Israel. (lol). Now, that’s really funny !.
            It is a matter of discernment. Jesus said, "I am the door" does that mean he is a door? of course not. Jesus meant he is the only way to God; he had and has the monopoly of all that is called God as far as we are concerned and semantics or playing the obtuse card cannot excuse us on judgment day.
            Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
            So you do agree with me that Jesus was just a prophet and messenger of God and NOT the divine son of God or God Himself. If you do, then I might agree with you that Jesus was the fulfillment in Deut. 18:18. In fact, thinking about it, I don’t see anything wrong if one was to think that, after all, Jesus was the prophet/messenger who came after Moses so, its natural for Moses to foretell the next prophet after him..
            Well, you are the first Muslim that was willing to accept Jesus as being the fulfillment of Deut. 18; so we agree on this and that yes Jesus is a prophet. But he is not a messenger. Angels are messengers. That is what angel means. Angel = Messenger. It was a messenger that delivered the Quran to Muhammad at Mt. Hira right?
            Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
            Fact is all prophets are messengers but not all messengers are prophets. The original Scriptures are written in Hebrew or Aramaic which are part of the Semitic languages. Phoenician, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, and Arabic are all examples of Semitic languages. The point I am trying to make here is that in the Semitic languages, there’s no CAPITAL letters. But in the English translated Bibles which you have today, the translators placed certain words like ‘son’ to ‘Son’ to imply that the son is divine when in reality, ‘son’ ’ in Hebrew means ‘servant’.. Example in Genesis 6:2 and 4, “sons of God’ was used to mean “servants of God”. So, when God said “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”, He’s actually saying “This is my beloved servant in whom I am well pleased”. I am not arguing with God’s words but I am clarifying God’s words so that you are not led astrayed. Blind faith is no faith..
            Okay, but Jesus is not so much a messenger as He is the Message that the prophets spoke of. Jesus is more than just a prophet. He has the name above all names; He is not honored unless he is honored above all and that is the way God wants it. That information along with Jesus saves us from our sin is the gospel or good news. We reject this message at our own spiritual peril.
            Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
            I can agree with you on that. Yippee !! We agreed on another !!
            God keep His words, but its Man who cannot keep God’s words. They changed His words but claimed its from Him.
            They try to change his words and fail because all of God's words are unalterable; seek the truth and you will always find Jesus is the truth, the life, and the way. He is Allah's (God) word and no person or devil in hell can change that. Jesus said seek and your will find, knock and the door will be open ask and you shall receive the truth.
            As I said, this post of yours was the best challenge thus far. Thanks for sharing. PBUY
            Last edited by Iamsaved; 11-11-15, 04:32 AM.
            Love God and love others

            Comment


            • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

              Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
              This post of yours was the best challenge thus far.
              Okay, that is true, but I meant a child that hasn't grown to maturity, and by nature I meant they are both human and of course a child is not going to have the same position, office and function as the father but they are very equal as persons and human. There really isn't the perfect analogy because God is a mystery and past finding out like His triunity
              Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
              It is a matter of discernment. Jesus said, "I am the door" does that mean he is a door? of course not. Jesus meant he is the only way to God; he had and has the monopoly of all that is called God as far as we are concerned and semantics or playing the obtuse card cannot excuse us on judgment day.
              Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
              Well, you are the first Muslim that was willing to accept Jesus as being the fulfillment of Deut. 18; so we agree on this and that yes Jesus is a prophet. But he is not a messenger. Angels are messengers. That is what angel means. Angel = Messenger. It was a messenger that delivered the Quran to Muhammad at Mt. Hira right?
              Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
              Okay, but Jesus is not so much a messenger as he is the Message that the prophets spoke of. Jesus is more than just a prophet. he has the name above all names; he is not honored unless he is honored above all and that is the why God wants it. That information along with Jesus saves us from our sin is the gospel or good news. We reject this message at our own spiritual peril.
              Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
              They try to change his words and fail because all of God's words are unalterable; seek the truth and your will always find Jesus is the truth, the life, and the way. He is Allah's (God) word and no person or devil in hell can change that.
              Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
              As I said, this post of yours was the best challenge thus far. Thanks for sharing. PBUY
              Thanks to you too for having the patience (as I can be quite long-winded at times!) and sharing your knowledge and thoughts with me. Peace to you too. May we all find guidance to the straight path. Amen.

              Comment


              • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                The respect is mutual, my friend.
                God is mystery in some of His ways but He did make it clear of who He is. He is One and Only and He has no partners associated to Him. (“You shall have no other gods before Me.”).
                Yes, the respect is mutual. Your post are not thought challenging, they are articulate, informative and polite. If he is a mystery as we both agree, how is His oneness clear to you? Is He one like a man or one who could only be at one place at a time. Is he one Spirit? Can you explain his oneness? I can tell you. His oneness is not clear to me. I cannot explain the triunity that exists as one God nor is it my job. But I agree God is one with no partners. God said let us make man in our image and likeness. The us and the we terms God uses are royal, but he still said let us create man. Jesus did say the father and I are one. Some might say one in purpose; duh all prophets from God had that no need for a prophet to be redundant. I believe Jesus meant one in essence and not just purpose especially when he said; "If you have seen me you have seen the father (God). No other prophet could speak like that without being stoned to death and that was attempted with Jesus. The Jews knew what Jesus meant. Why is Allah so unforgiving toward Christians that believe Jesus is associated with God as his word like your word is associated to you and mine is to me. He did create us in his image and likeness. How is Allah so down on Christians who believe this if his unforgiveness is not a reaction that discriminates mainly against Christianity. It is not clear what Allah meant when he said say not three. What three was he saying not to say three about? I could easily avoid not saying three and God is one, but He still ends up a mystery and God's oneness is past finding out. I certainly don't believe there are three gods like the eastern religions etc.

                Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                Exactly what I am trying to tell you. You cannot take Jesus’ words literally. Yes, nothing can excused us on Judgement Day and that’s is why it’s so important to understand God and His Messages which He conveyed to us through his prophets/messengers..
                Whoops, here we go agreeing again, lol. The prophets message that God is one you say? The Jews always knew that, prophets came to bring messages that bless or disciple wayward behavior such as idolatry immorality and the idolatry wasn't making association to God it was for having a completely different God; well, sought of like Christians and Muslims have. For instance, the God and Jesus of the Quran and the Bible are not the same if God said he has his beloved Son and in the Quran he doesn't. I find it contrived that Allah would be so down on Christians for believing that Jesus died and rose when he was the one who deceived the Jews into believing Jesus died. Why did he have to use deception? In my minds eye I see the deception as getting people to believe he didn't die for our sins so they will die in theirs. Jesus said "You will die in your sins unless you believe I am he" God said in Isaiah. There is no God besides me I am he. So here we have Jesus and God saying " I am he" God tells Moses he is I am and Jesus said before Abraham was I am. I can take a spiritual hint; so why is Allah so hard on Judo-Christianity? No Muslim has been able to answer this to satisfy why I should be Muslim and not Christian yet I believe in submitting to God. They fail every time, and yet I am not trying to convince them that Jesus is God. I believe Jesus is the word God used to create me; therefore, I obey and submit to the Scripture that came before that states we should honor the Son the same as the father; otherwise, we are not honoring the father who sent Him.

                Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                Deut. 18 talked about the coming of a prophet who is very much a human like Moses (apart of the miracles which they both did with God's permission) and not about a prophet who is divine in nature or Son of God. So, in that context, yes, depending on how one want to interpret it, Deut.18 could be talking about Jesus as Jesus was the prophet/messenger after Moses. I am a practical man..
                Well, God did say Moses would be god to his enemies and Aaron his prophet and there is no doubt in my head that Deut. 18 was speaking of Jesus.
                Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                The Angel Gabriel is an angel created by God for specific purposes. He was instructed by God to reveal the Quran to Muhammad. The same Angel Gabriel was also instructed to inform Mary of the good news that she will conceive a baby son, Jesus. And when she said that it was not possible as no man had touched her, Gabriel replied that nothing is impossible to God, if He wants to create something, all He has to do is say “Be” and it becomes just like when He said “Let there be light and there was light”. Muhammad, Jesus and the other prophets (peace upon all of them) are messengers on earth and they are all warners to the unbelievers and the bearers of good tidings to the believers. .
                Well, that is a message that is original to the gospel. that is Gabriel approaching Mary with the news of Jesus; so I lean to the original source of that information and the explanation the gospel gives is the original source. If Jesus is the word of Allah and that word is BE, that lines up with Jesus saying I am. I am and be are the same verb. Jesus is the BE (his word) that God used to create us. The gospel states that all things were made by Him for Him and through Him; so, how is it that Allah is so unforgiven about us believing Jesus is the word in Jn. 1 if it is not contrived
                Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                No, Jesus is not the Message but he was sent by God as a prophet and a messenger to the Israelites. Jesus, as a prophet and a messenger, repeated Moses’, word for word, “The Lord, our God is One” which is God’s most important message and the underlying message in His First Commandment - “You shall have no other gods before Me.”.. Rejecting this or associating Him with partners is, as how you said it, at your own peril. .
                Jesus is the Message when he says: I am the way, the truth and the life; I am the bread that comes down from heaven; bread means gives you substance to live like the bread came down for the children of Israel in the wilderness. Jesus is the Passover lamb that saved them from death. If you don't have the blood of Jesus, the angel of death will not pass you by and that will be at your own peril
                Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                Jesus is Allah's word in the sense he was created by Allah just as He created Light, Adam and everything else.
                God's Message and Commandments are conveyed to us through His prophets/messengers. Man can alter God's words through His messengers’ sayings and teachings by altering what the prophets/messengers said or meant to say. God knew this and He issued a warning “Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.” - Deuteronomy 4:2.
                No one is adding anything. Jn. 1 says He is the word of God and God's word is eternal and uncreated. Satan doesn't want us to believe this so we can be with him in a Christless eternity. He is the father of deception and the best at it.
                Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                Thanks to you too for having the patience (as I can be quite long-winded at times!) and sharing your knowledge and thoughts with me. Peace to you too. May we all find guidance to the straight path. Amen.
                Thanks is to you for your patience. You're not long winded. May you find guidance as well on the straight path sincerely and PBUY
                Love God and love others

                Comment


                • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                  Reply to Post #152:

                  Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                  Okay, it says repel evil with what is best. I can understand your interpreting that as love your enemies, but in my mind's eye it is a subjective verse and can still mean different things to different people; it is not as specific as love your enemies and turn the other cheek if smitten and so on.
                  I didn't say love is hate. You are being extreme in exaggeration. Love can, however, appear as hate to some. I didn't say anything about terror; you did. I just quoted part of a verse from the Quran and you came up with your own inference on terror. I had no such thoughts at the time. My point is when a verse is general in nature, it leads to many different interpretations. Love your enemies, turn the other cheek and do good to those who spitefully use you are specific in nature and doesn't lend itself to as much interpretation or give the room that do what's best does for interpretations.
                  Your reply quoted above makes no sense, you are dodging the fact that you are projecting pure evil onto people without cause.

                  Time and again, you've been intellectually dishonest and lied, dodged, contradicted yourself, etc. Post #126 & #149 sum it all up, and you still haven't addressed the unanswered parts from Post #118.

                  Buh bye, hugs.
                  Last edited by daniel_agnostic; 12-11-15, 12:55 AM.
                  Every normal person makes mistakes, therefore too much religious disputation is vain and egotistical - goodbye Ummah.com. Peace be upon you.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                    Originally posted by daniel_agnostic View Post
                    Reply to Post #152:



                    Your reply quoted above makes no sense, you are dodging the fact that you are projecting pure evil onto people without cause.

                    Time and again, you've been intellectually dishonest and lied, dodged, contradicted yourself, etc. Post #126 & #149 sum it all up, and you still haven't addressed the unanswered parts from Post #118.

                    Buh bye, hugs.
                    Daniel I am sorry, but I have no idea what your talking about. You are the only one saying this about me. There is not even anything here you say that I can dialogue with you about. You are too general. You need to be specific not just quote post numbers, and the criticism you give is certainly not constructive. It appears to me your mind is made up and you don't want to be challenged or confused with the facts. So, we will just have to agree to disagree.
                    PBUY from me and hugs :there:
                    Last edited by Iamsaved; 12-11-15, 02:48 AM.
                    Love God and love others

                    Comment


                    • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                      Hi Jerry I notice a mistake I meant to say in the first line of post #157: Yes, the respect is mutual. Your post are not only thought challenging, they are articulate, informative and polite.
                      Love God and love others

                      Comment


                      • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                        Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                        Yes, the respect is mutual. Your post are not thought challenging, they are articulate, informative and polite. If he is a mystery as we both agree, how is His oneness clear to you? Is He one like a man or one who could only be at one place at a time. Is he one Spirit? Can you explain his oneness? I can tell you. His oneness is not clear to me. I cannot explain the triunity that exists as one God nor is it my job. But I agree God is one with no partners. God said let us make man in our image and likeness. The us and the we terms God uses are royal, but he still said let us create man. Jesus did say the father and I are one. Some might say one in purpose; duh all prophets from God had that no need for a prophet to be redundant. I believe Jesus meant one in essence and not just purpose especially when he said; "If you have seen me you have seen the father (God). No other prophet could speak like that without being stoned to death and that was attempted with Jesus. The Jews knew what Jesus meant. Why is Allah so unforgiving toward Christians that believe Jesus is associated with God as his word like your word is associated to you and mine is to me. He did create us in his image and likeness. How is Allah so down on Christians who believe this if his unforgiveness is not a reaction that discriminates mainly against Christianity. It is not clear what Allah meant when he said say not three. What three was he saying not to say three about? I could easily avoid not saying three and God is one, but He still ends up a mystery and God's oneness is past finding out. I certainly don't believe there are three gods like the eastern religions etc.
                        Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                        Whoops, here we go agreeing again, lol. The prophets message that God is one you say? The Jews always knew that, prophets came to bring messages that bless or disciple wayward behavior such as idolatry immorality and the idolatry wasn't making association to God it was for having a completely different God; well, sought of like Christians and Muslims have. For instance, the God and Jesus of the Quran and the Bible are not the same if God said he has his beloved Son and in the Quran he doesn't. I find it contrived that Allah would be so down on Christians for believing that Jesus died and rose when he was the one who deceived the Jews into believing Jesus died. Why did he have to use deception? In my minds eye I see the deception as getting people to believe he didn't die for our sins so they will die in theirs. Jesus said "You will die in your sins unless you believe I am he" God said in Isaiah. There is no God besides me I am he. So here we have Jesus and God saying " I am he" God tells Moses he is I am and Jesus said before Abraham was I am. I can take a spiritual hint; so why is Allah so hard on Judo-Christianity? No Muslim has been able to answer this to satisfy why I should be Muslim and not Christian yet I believe in submitting to God. They fail every time, and yet I am not trying to convince them that Jesus is God. I believe Jesus is the word God used to create me; therefore, I obey and submit to the Scripture that came before that states we should honor the Son the same as the father; otherwise, we are not honoring the father who sent Him.
                        Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                        Well, God did say Moses would be god to his enemies and Aaron his prophet and there is no doubt in my head that Deut. 18 was speaking of Jesus.
                        So now we have God Moses and Aaron his prophet if you want to understand that literally by its words. Fact is whoever, was meant to be the coming prophet in Deut.18, it was clear that prophet was not divine in nature.
                        Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                        Well, that is a message that is original to the gospel. that is Gabriel approaching Mary with the news of Jesus; so I lean to the original source of that information and the explanation the gospel gives is the original source. If Jesus is the word of Allah and that word is BE, that lines up with Jesus saying I am. I am and be are the same verb. Jesus is the BE (his word) that God used to create us. The gospel states that all things were made by Him for Him and through Him; so, how is it that Allah is so unforgiven about us believing Jesus is the word in Jn. 1 if it is not contrived.
                        Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                        Jesus is the Message when he says: I am the way, the truth and the life; I am the bread that comes down from heaven; bread means gives you substance to live like the bread came down for the children of Israel in the wilderness. Jesus is the Passover lamb that saved them from death. If you don't have the blood of Jesus, the angel of death will not pass you by and that will be at your own peril
                        Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                        No one is adding anything. Jn. 1 says He is the word of God and God's word is eternal and uncreated. Satan doesn't want us to believe this so we can be with him in a Christless eternity. He is the father of deception and the best at it.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                          http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-425-3263.htm

                          "We must ask: Why did the Prophet (peace be upon him) make a distinction between religion and character? We know the Prophet (peace be upon him) was blessed with eloquence. He did not waste words. He never used two words when one would suffice. When he said "religion and character", he had a good reason for doing so."
                          Every normal person makes mistakes, therefore too much religious disputation is vain and egotistical - goodbye Ummah.com. Peace be upon you.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                            Thanks for you patient well though out response. I can tell a lot of patient effort went into it. When it comes to God who I agree is one, I don't disagree with these statements. We just see God's oneness differently as Christians and Muslims.
                            I understand that the term trinity is not in the Bible and it is fine for me to leave out that term, but Christians didn't need Niceae or Constantine to know the concept of God's triunity is in the uncorrupted gospel. The term tawheed is not in the Quran, and yet you accept the concept; therefore, it is the same with me.
                            The Abrahamic faiths always believe that God is one; it is not a new revelation. Monotheism started with the Jews and Christians first and originally and only original to Christianity or the gospel is the virgin birth of Jesus. Christians have proxy on that. Didn't Allah tell Muhammad ask the people of the Book when it comes to certain issues regarding prophet hood? Didn't Allah say we people of the Book need to stand on the revelation we received for we can do no other? The revelation we received is that Jesus is the only truth. life and way and Satan hates it. Doesn't the Quran teach that Satan was told to prostrate before Adam and rebelled? Well, the NT Bible states Jesus is the last Adam and the angels were commanded to worship Jesus Heb. 1. Satan had his chance to obey the command; now that he failed he is looking to make everyone fail by not recognizing the son of man, the last Adam or the Lamb of God Jesus who takes away the sins of the world so he can fight and hurt God by dragging souls into hell and damnation.

                            I know the context and the controversy. Some Muslims tell me in the original Arabic the term says "Best of deceivers" and other say the proper translation is Best of Planners. I won't argue this with you because I am not Arabic, but I cannot call it the way I see it, and that is Allah made something that wasn't true appear as true; no matter how I twist or turn it, I see deception involved' therefore I don't trust the reasoning behind it. I know God can translate people from one location to another, and he doesn't need to resort to trump the tactics of unbelievers. I don't understand why someone as intelligent as you cannot see, discern or infer this. God did not spare Jesus read Isaiah 53 and see a perfect prophetic portrait of Him. When Jesus said You will die in your sin unless you believe I am he, he wasn't just talking about his teachings; he was referring to himself. He said I am the way; he didn't say I show the way. Saying the gospel is corrupted will not excuse anyone.
                            Yes God has many names and titles. God is the great I am. God also said his name is Jealous. God can be jealous and not sin. After all, He created us in his image and likeness. Jealously is not always a bad thing. There is such thing as righteous jealously and anger. I am not telling you to believe Jesus is God. Everyone is accountable for what they do with Jesus in their lives. You must come to your own conclusions as I must.
                            Originally posted by JerryMyers View Post
                            So now we have God Moses and Aaron his prophet if you want to understand that literally by its words. Fact is whoever, was meant to be the coming prophet in Deut.18, it was clear that prophet was not divine in nature. .
                            What you say is not clear to the biggest religion in the world or to me. If Allah didn't make it appear that Jesus died, Christianity wouldn't exist today. Now Allah is going to judge us Christians for believing Jesus died contrary to Islamic teaching, when it is the deception Allah brought on the Jews to spare Jesus. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me and sounds very contrived. I think any objective, honest opinion can understand what I am saying here unless they are deprogramed, compliant, brainwashed automatons.
                            The origin of a Scripture is just as important to me as it being the truth, but this is not worth arguing over. The point is I will give more credence to the original source as to why Jesus was born of a virgin. IOW, the gospel is not only the origin of this information, but it also gives us the reason Jesus had to have been born of a virgin whereas the Quran doesn't. If we were playing cards, I believe I am holding a trump hand on this.
                            Here we have Christianity and Islam. The gospel says we are damned if we don't and the Quran states we are damned if we do. If there is any consolation I agree with the Quran when it states to you be your religion and to me be mine, because never the twain shall meet. They are mutually exclusive.
                            Well, many Muslims have converted to Christianity by having similar supernatural experiences as Paul did. Paul hated Christians and ended up becoming one; this speaks volumes to me. As for people tamping with Scripture do you have any concern that Uthman burned the original Qurans, and recompiled them. Did he have a divine mandate for that? Isn't that like acting as Allah's editor?
                            We haven't scratched the surface of Jn. 1
                            PBUY
                            Last edited by Iamsaved; 12-11-15, 03:34 PM.
                            Love God and love others

                            Comment


                            • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                              Originally posted by noobz View Post
                              he(sws) wasnt like every other human.
                              What does that mean?
                              Love God and love others

                              Comment


                              • Re: Why do muslims believe that Muhammad is incapable of sinning?

                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                Thanks for you patient well though out response. I can tell a lot of patient effort went into it. When it comes to God who I agree is one, I don't disagree with these statements. We just see God's oneness differently as Christians and Muslims.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                I understand that the term trinity is not in the Bible and it is fine for me to leave out that term, but Christians didn't need Niceae or Constantine to know the concept of God's triunity is in the uncorrupted gospel. The term tawheed is not in the Quran, and yet you accept the concept; therefore, it is the same with me.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                The Abrahamic faiths always believe that God is one; it is not a new revelation. Monotheism started with the Jews and Christians first and originally and only original to Christianity or the gospel is the virgin birth of Jesus. Christians have proxy on that. Didn't Allah tell Muhammad ask the people of the Book when it comes to certain issues regarding prophet hood? Didn't Allah say we people of the Book need to stand on the revelation we received for we can do no other? The revelation we received is that Jesus is the only truth. life and way and Satan hates it. Doesn't the Quran teach that Satan was told to prostrate before Adam and rebelled? Well, the NT Bible states Jesus is the last Adam and the angels were commanded to worship Jesus Heb. 1. Satan had his chance to obey the command; now that he failed he is looking to make everyone fail by not recognizing the son of man, the last Adam or the Lamb of God Jesus who takes away the sins of the world so he can fight and hurt God by dragging souls into hell and damnation.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                Well, the NT Bible states Jesus is the last Adam and the angels were commanded to worship Jesus Heb. 1. Satan had his chance to obey the command; now that he failed he is looking to make everyone fail by not recognizing the son of man, the last Adam or the Lamb of God Jesus who takes away the sins of the world so he can fight and hurt God by dragging souls into hell and damnation.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                I know the context and the controversy. Some Muslims tell me in the original Arabic the term says "Best of deceivers" and other say the proper translation is Best of Planners. I won't argue this with you because I am not Arabic, but I cannot call it the way I see it, and that is Allah made something that wasn't true appear as true; no matter how I twist or turn it, I see deception involved' therefore I don't trust the reasoning behind it. I know God can translate people from one location to another, and he doesn't need to resort to trump the tactics of unbelievers. I don't understand why someone as intelligent as you cannot see, discern or infer this. God did not spare Jesus read Isaiah 53 and see a perfect prophetic portrait of Him. When Jesus said You will die in your sin unless you believe I am he, he wasn't just talking about his teachings; he was referring to himself. He said I am the way; he didn't say I show the way. Saying the gospel is corrupted will not excuse anyone.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                Yes God has many names and titles. God is the great I am. God also said his name is Jealous. God can be jealous and not sin. After all, He created us in his image and likeness. Jealously is not always a bad thing. There is such thing as righteous jealously and anger. I am not telling you to believe Jesus is God. Everyone is accountable for what they do with Jesus in their lives. You must come to your own conclusions as I must.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                What you say is not clear to the biggest religion in the world or to me. If Allah didn't make it appear that Jesus died, Christianity wouldn't exist today. Now Allah is going to judge us Christians for believing Jesus died contrary to Islamic teaching, when it is the deception Allah brought on the Jews to spare Jesus. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me and sounds very contrived. I think any objective, honest opinion can understand what I am saying here unless they are deprogramed, compliant, brainwashed automatons.
                                I think I answered this above in this post. I just want to add to that answer, if Allah made it appear that Jesus died, then why Muslims do not believe that he died on the cross ? You probably said that because the Quran said so and the Muslims believe in the Quran. True, but as I also said in my answer, the Scriptures also said so ie. God will protect Jesus.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                The origin of a Scripture is just as important to me as it being the truth, but this is not worth arguing over. The point is I will give more credence to the original source as to why Jesus was born of a virgin. IOW, the gospel is not only the origin of this information, but it also gives us the reason Jesus had to have been born of a virgin whereas the Quran doesn't. If we were playing cards, I believe I am holding a trump hand on this.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                Here we have Christianity and Islam. The gospel says we are damned if we don't and the Quran states we are damned if we do. If there is any consolation I agree with the Quran when it states to you be your religion and to me be mine, because never the twain shall meet. They are mutually exclusive.
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                Well, many Muslims have converted to Christianity by having similar supernatural experiences as Paul did. Paul hated Christians and ended up becoming one; this speaks volumes to me. As for people tamping with Scripture do you have any concern that Uthman burned the original Qurans, and recompiled them. Did he have a divine mandate for that? Isn't that like acting as Allah's editor?
                                Originally posted by Iamsaved View Post
                                We haven't scratched the surface of Jn. 1
                                PBUY
                                If the whole of John 1 is the same as its surface ie. trying to imply that Jesus is the Word or God, then yes, we are through.
                                You take care now.

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