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  • #16
    Re: Muslim indifference to violence

    Originally posted by Panthera tigris View Post
    Can you quote eome passages from theological or legal works confirming that it is not permitted to harm civilians? At the moment I don't have time to research it myself. I remember reading some story from either one of hadith or sira collections when Muslims were to conduct a night raid on a village of pagan Arabs and were concerned that civilians will be among the victims so they asked the prophet and he said "they are from them" so he at least accepted such a possibility. He also had a history of applying some kind of "collective (in)justice" in form of e.g. raiding caravans and killing their drivers who had little to do with Meccan politics.
    Once, in a battlefield, the Prophet came across the corpse of a woman. Driven to anger, the Prophet exclaimed, ‘What sort of war was she fighting that she was killed?’ Then, he sent a message to the man who was leading the Muslim forces, Hazrat Khalid, instructing him to ensure that henceforth no woman, labourer or slave must be slain in the course of the war (Sunan Abu Daud 2669, Masnad Ahmad 17158, Sahih Bukhari 3015).

    The Prophet also forbade his followers from attacking the monks and mendicants of other faiths, even in the course of war. In a hadith recorded in the Masnad Ahmad (2723),

    The Prophet also forbade his followers from attacking the monks and mendicants of other faiths, even in the course of war. In a hadith recorded in the Masnad Ahmad (2723), whenever the Prophet used to dispatch an army to the battlefield he would instruct it to refrain from kill people worshipping in their places of worship and those who served in such places. In the Mu‘ata of Imam Malik (858) it is recorded that once, when Abu Bakr dispatched Yazid ibn Sufiyan to Syria, which was at that time a largely Christian country, on a military expedition, he said to him that he would meet people who would tell him that they had sacrificed the world in order to worship and serve God. Such people, he instructed Khalid, must not be harmed. He also warned him not to attack or slay women, children and the aged and infirm, not to cut down any fruit-bearing trees, not to despoil any human habitation or set on fire any orchard, and not to renege on treaties and agreements. In his collection of hadith reports, Imam Baihaqi has attributed similar instructions to the Prophet, and although the chain of transmitters of this report is weak, because of its large number of narrators it has been accepted as fairly strong.


    Of course their are exceptions, if any of the mentioned people become combatants the exclusion is no longer in place. Also seige warfare could kill some of those mentioned but they are not the intended target they'd be what the west would call colatoral damage.
    www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

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    • #17
      Re: Muslim indifference to violence

      Originally posted by Panthera tigris View Post
      Can you quote eome passages from theological or legal works confirming that it is not permitted to harm civilians? At the moment I don't have time to research it myself. I remember reading some story from either one of hadith or sira collections when Muslims were to conduct a night raid on a village of pagan Arabs and were concerned that civilians will be among the victims so they asked the prophet and he said "they are from them" so he at least accepted such a possibility. He also had a history of applying some kind of "collective (in)justice" in form of e.g. raiding caravans and killing their drivers who had little to do with Meccan politics.
      Collective justice?
      Quryash were at war with Muslims, they persecuted themn, drove them out of Mecca and stole their wealth - so the attacks on their caravans were entirely justified, and no one was ever killed in the Caravans except in 1 case which the Prophet :saw: did not tell them to do because it was just a scouting mission.
      Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

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      • #18
        Re: Muslim indifference to violence

        Originally posted by Mikha’eel View Post
        Collective justice?
        Quryash were at war with Muslims, they persecuted themn, drove them out of Mecca and stole their wealth - so the attacks on their caravans were entirely justified, and no one was ever killed in the Caravans except in 1 case which the Prophet :saw: did not tell them to do because it was just a scouting mission.
        AFAIK only Muhammad was kicked out of Mecca. The rest of his followers left pretty much on their own (Ali remained in the city and left a few days later), Muhammad even threatened them with death if they dare to go back to Mecca.

        And Muhammad could have avoided this altogether had he wanted to. Even Muslim historians have recorded that the reason why Muhammad was looked badly at in Mecca wasn't because he started a new religion - religious intolerance was unheard of in Arabia back then. The reason behind it was that he started slandering Meccan gods and cursing their ancestors - and even then they showed remarkable patience, having endured his insults for 13 years before finally giving up and even went to Muhammad's uncle to tell him that once Muhammad stops cursing their gods, they will stop all acts of hostility against him. If today someone in Mecca started cursing Allah, he would be arrested and executed right away. Quire a difference, isn't it?

        Before Islam Mecca was a pluralistic city, even by our time's standards - Pagans, Jews and Christians lived and prayed together. Today non-Muslims can't even enter Mecca.
        Last edited by Panthera tigris; 25-02-14, 08:40 PM.

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        • #19
          Re: Muslim indifference to violence

          Originally posted by Panthera tigris View Post
          AFAIK only Muhammad was kicked out of Mecca. The rest of his followers left pretty much on their own (Ali remained in the city and left a few days later), Muhammad even threatened them with death if they dare to go back to Mecca.

          And Muhammad could have avoided this altogether had he wanted to. Even Muslim historians have recorded that the reason why Muhammad was looked badly at in Mecca wasn't because he started a new religion - religious intolerance was unheard of in Arabia back then. The reason behind it was that he started slandering Meccan gods and cursing their ancestors - and even then they showed remarkable patience, having endured his insults for 13 years before finally giving up and even went to Muhammad's uncle to tell him that once Muhammad stops cursing their gods, they will stop all acts of hostility against him. If today someone in Mecca started cursing Allah, he would be arrested and executed right away. Quire a difference, isn't it?

          Before Islam Mecca was a pluralistic city, even by our time's standards - Pagans, Jews and Christians lived and prayed together. Today non-Muslims can't even enter Mecca.


          you're such a moron its unreal. Quraysh didnt just persecute muhammed saw. The went after entire tribes of muslims. Muslims were tortured beaten and murdered. Infact the first martyr in islamic history was a woman called sumayah. Muslims were persecuted so much they fled to Abyssinia and took refuge with the christian kings there. I swear you must have been reading some garbage polemics from your gutter websites. Do you know what they used to do the first muezzin of islam bilal? Sickening torture stories.


          When muhammed saw first started to preach islam, quraysh tried to bribe him first. they promised him money, wealth women even offering him the leadership of all quraysh. All they wanted was muhammed to compromise with them over religion. and the prophet refused it all. And why should muhammed saw not attack their false idols. abraham did it. Moses did it to pharaoh.

          Muhammed saw was no different. listen kaffir, muhammed saw endured for 13 years in makkah. abu lahab his wife abu jahl all made his life a misery. The muslims were beaten to hell and back. To the point where even when the fled they were chased so they could be brought back and killed.

          I have suggestion. More reading of facts and less polemics

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          • #20
            Re: Muslim indifference to violence

            1. After all it isn;t even sure whether Sumayya was indeed killed or not as historical sources disagree on this mattet. If she was indeed killed, it is strange why there is so little information available about it and so much confusion.

            2. The reason why Meccans tried to bribe Muhammad wasn't because they wanted to convert him back to paganism but to make him stop cursing their gods and insulting their ancestors. Pagans had been living and worshipping together with Jews and Christians for centuries before and they did not give a damn about their beliefs. There was a tradition telling that members of various religions should not insult other people's faiths.

            Three excepts from Ibn Hisham - I've highlighted the important parts:
            When the apostle openly displayed Islam as Allah ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that, they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy.

            [The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow. He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods

            They decided to send for Muhammad and to negotiate and argue with him... When he came and sat down with them, they explained that that they had sent for him in order that they could talk together. No Arab had ever treated his tribe as Muhammad had treated them, and they repeated the charges... If it was money he wanted, they would make him the richest of them all; if it was honor, he should be their prince; if it was sovereignty, they would make him king

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            • #21
              Re: Muslim indifference to violence

              Originally posted by Panthera tigris View Post
              1. After all it isn;t even sure whether Sumayya was indeed killed or not as historical sources disagree on this mattet. If she was indeed killed, it is strange why there is so little information available about it and so much confusion.

              2. The reason why Meccans tried to bribe Muhammad wasn't because they wanted to convert him back to paganism but to make him stop cursing their gods and insulting their ancestors. Pagans had been living and worshipping together with Jews and Christians for centuries before and they did not give a damn about their beliefs. There was a tradition telling that members of various religions should not insult other people's faiths.

              Three excepts from Ibn Hisham - I've highlighted the important parts:
              When the apostle openly displayed Islam as Allah ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that, they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy.

              [The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow. He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods

              They decided to send for Muhammad and to negotiate and argue with him... When he came and sat down with them, they explained that that they had sent for him in order that they could talk together. No Arab had ever treated his tribe as Muhammad had treated them, and they repeated the charges... If it was money he wanted, they would make him the richest of them all; if it was honor, he should be their prince; if it was sovereignty, they would make him king

              you're a fool as i guessed. even 10 year old muslim children who studied islamic history know sumayah. Its in our seerah. the only confusion is in ur kaffir head who thinks only muhammed saw got persecuted


              Muhammed saw was a prophet of God and Allah has ordered him to declare the superiority of islam over their false foolish pagan beliefs. They couldnt take it and they proceeded to bribe him first. when that failed they went on a persecution spree.

              abraham mocked the idols of his forefathers and he was thrown into a fire as a result. I take it you have an issue with abraham too.

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              • #22
                Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                This guy is a bigger idiot than I first thought

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                • #23
                  Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                  My experiences today have just confirmed what I wrote in the first post of this thread.

                  Several hours ago I posted info about an attack that had just taken place in Nigeria. The attack was as vile as it could have been - Boko Haram members entered a dormitory of a boarding school at night and began killing students. Some had their throats slit, others were shot dead, even others were shredded to pieces by hand grenades. Then the entire building was set on fire, many bodies were burned beyond recognition.

                  As for now my post has not generated any responses. It's sad that so many Muslims are more concerned about niqab ban than about more than 50 kids slaughtered in a cold blooded manner by your brothers in faith. So called islamophobes are right when they say that Muslims are divided into those who support terrorism and those who don't give a damn about it.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                    I'm not a Muslim yet, but all violence appalls me, and will do should I take shahada, too. I am sorry your post has not generated any responses. I certainly give a damn about such a vile attack.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                      Originally posted by Panthera tigris View Post
                      AFAIK only Muhammad was kicked out of Mecca. The rest of his followers left pretty much on their own (Ali remained in the city and left a few days later), Muhammad even threatened them with death if they dare to go back to Mecca.
                      They left because of the persecution they suffered. Musab Ibn Umayr was tied up in chains by his own mother. Zubayr Ibn Awwam was tortured by his uncles. Kabab Ibn Al Arart's master brutally tortured him - placing him on hot rocks which burnt holes into his back. Bilal, everyone knows the story of Bilal and how he was tortured by Ummayah Ibn Khalaf. Yasir & Summayah were the first 2 martyrs of Islam and so on and so on. [ May Allah be pleased with all of them]

                      That wasn't even enough for the Quryash, they had to peruse them to Abyssinia to get them back because they could not handle the humiliation that 10% of their population left them and went to another country - which was a source of great shame because they drove their own people out.

                      And the Prophet :saw: suffered at their hands as well for many years, and lets not forget the 2-3 year long boycott against the Banu Hashim by the rest of the tribes which was unheard of in Arabia and the numerous attempts to to kill him.



                      And Muhammad could have avoided this altogether had he wanted to. Even Muslim historians have recorded that the reason why Muhammad was looked badly at in Mecca wasn't because he started a new religion - religious intolerance was unheard of in Arabia back then. The reason behind it was that he started slandering Meccan gods and cursing their ancestors - and even then they showed remarkable patience, having endured his insults for 13 years before finally giving up and even went to Muhammad's uncle to tell him that once Muhammad stops cursing their gods, they will stop all acts of hostility against him. If today someone in Mecca started cursing Allah, he would be arrested and executed right away. Quire a difference, isn't it?
                      Only in the twisted mind of these idol worshipers was he guilty of such things. He never once spoke against his own ancestors - there is zero evidence of that, and even to the extent when he was asked if he was better than his grandfather AbdulMuttalib - he never responded. He spoke against Idol worshiping and associating partners with Allah and other injustices they were doing at the time, and like all corrupt and evil people, they would not stand for it.


                      Before Islam Mecca was a pluralistic city, even by our time's standards - Pagans, Jews and Christians lived and prayed together. Today non-Muslims can't even enter Mecca.
                      There were no Jews or Christians in Mecca. Just pagans. And we saw how tolerant the idol worshipers were when Islam came didn't we?

                      I suggest you actuaslly pick up a proper Islamic seerah book and stop making stuff up, acting like Muslims were in the wrong or that they were not persecuted.
                      Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                      How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                      Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                        Originally posted by Panthera tigris View Post
                        My experiences today have just confirmed what I wrote in the first post of this thread.

                        Several hours ago I posted info about an attack that had just taken place in Nigeria. The attack was as vile as it could have been - Boko Haram members entered a dormitory of a boarding school at night and began killing students. Some had their throats slit, others were shot dead, even others were shredded to pieces by hand grenades. Then the entire building was set on fire, many bodies were burned beyond recognition.

                        As for now my post has not generated any responses. It's sad that so many Muslims are more concerned about niqab ban than about more than 50 kids slaughtered in a cold blooded manner by your brothers in faith. So called islamophobes are right when they say that Muslims are divided into those who support terrorism and those who don't give a damn about it.

                        I couldn't give a toss what Islamaphobes think, because these same people are the ones that justify and deny the serbian genocide against muslims, the brutalization of Muslims by the Russians of Chechen Muslims, in China of the Uighur Muslim population, cheering on the mass murder going on in Burma - siding with the Buddhist terrorists.

                        These same hypocritical filth are in no position to lecture anyone about morality or what they do or do not care about. You sit there and demand we condemn this and that, and no matter how many times Muslims actually condemn something, it'll never be enough because they'#ll still come out on TV or newspaper articles claiming Muslims do not condemn it.

                        Go and see what your own damned countries are doing around the world before you have the nerve to lecture us about our supposed silence on certain topics. We are not your trained seals that we immediately jump and condemn every single thing people who claim to be muslims do around the world.
                        Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                        How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                        Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

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                        • #27
                          Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                          Originally posted by imranies
                          Hello there Panthera,

                          Here I want to share with you a good documentary on the Life of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This inshaAllah is a good source of information for you to learn about the Prophet. From what I can see, I think this documentary also included a lot of non-Muslim's point of view in it. Also, a lot of your questions and concerns in Muslims are also being mentioned in this documentary, inshaAllah. So I hope you'll watch it :)

                          No. Please delete that link. That is a bad documentary, no one should watch that.


                          If this guy really cares about facts, then he can go through at the very least the meccan stage of the seerah covered by Yasir Qadhi
                          http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAEA99D24CA2F9A8F

                          He deals with the seerah in a very academic manner - and refutes some of the orientalist garbage people like him have been brainwashed with,.
                          Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                          How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                          Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                            Originally posted by Panthera tigris View Post
                            1. After all it isn;t even sure whether Sumayya was indeed killed or not as historical sources disagree on this mattet. If she was indeed killed, it is strange why there is so little information available about it and so much confusion.

                            2. The reason why Meccans tried to bribe Muhammad wasn't because they wanted to convert him back to paganism but to make him stop cursing their gods and insulting their ancestors. Pagans had been living and worshipping together with Jews and Christians for centuries before and they did not give a damn about their beliefs. There was a tradition telling that members of various religions should not insult other people's faiths.

                            Three excepts from Ibn Hisham - I've highlighted the important parts:
                            When the apostle openly displayed Islam as Allah ordered him, his people did not withdraw or turn against him, so far as I have heard, until he spoke disparagingly of their gods. When he did that, they took great offence and resolved unanimously to treat him as an enemy.

                            [The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow. He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods

                            They decided to send for Muhammad and to negotiate and argue with him... When he came and sat down with them, they explained that that they had sent for him in order that they could talk together. No Arab had ever treated his tribe as Muhammad had treated them, and they repeated the charges... If it was money he wanted, they would make him the richest of them all; if it was honor, he should be their prince; if it was sovereignty, they would make him king
                            Now you're just taking passages and ignoring any and all context of stuff that came before it to paint a very biased picture.

                            There is no disagreement on the martyrdom of Summayah & Yasir [ May Allah be pleased with them both] it is a fact - and its in all books of seerah and in hadith.



                            If you got the time go through Yasir Qadhi's Seerah lectures:
                            http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAEA99D24CA2F9A8F

                            At the very least the Meccan ones - like the religious status of Arabia, declaration of Prophethood, opposition from Quraysh, and torture & persecution of the Muslims & the Prophet :saw: , and the hijrah.

                            Alternatively, you can watch all of the meccan stage at the very least if you got tons of time to spare. Its very academic compared to other seerah's out there, and its primarily based on the works of Ibn Ishaq & Ibn Hisham.
                            Allah is always watching [VIDEO]

                            How To Weep For The Fear Of Allah

                            Please remember to share these links with people you know so they can also benefit from them. :jkk:

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                              Originally posted by Panthera tigris View Post
                              Welcome

                              For some time I have been reading a few Islamic boards (including a few Sunni and one Shia site) and there is one thing that strikes me the most - almost complete lack of interest in discussing atrocities committed by Muslims against other groups. Muslims can create dozens of threads to discuss e.g. Palestinians or Syria (indeed a major source of suffering) but they can't even bring themselves to condemn other Muslims for their slaughter of Christians in Nigeria. Or massacres of Shias in Iraq by Saddam Hussain. OR massascres of Ahmadis in Pakistan, persecution of Bahais in Iran or some historical facts such as 300,000 Hindus killed on a single day by Tamerlane's troops etc.

                              Come on... Roughly 80% of all armed conflicts that take place anywhere in the world involve Muslims on at least one side even though they constitute only about 25% of the world's population. Pretty much in every place where Islam is a dominant religion, religious minorities live in constant fear for their lives, lives of their relatives and their property. In other places there is neverending war or threat of it, if Muslims' demands are not met. What Palestinians endure from the Israelis is nothing compared to what e.g. Christians in Nigeria or Hindus in Pakistan had to endure from mainstream Islam - constant suicide bombing of worship places, shootings, beheadings, massacres and denial of basic rights. All Western countries give Muslims full citizenship and the same rights the majority has but not a single sharia-based country gives it's minorities equal rights.

                              Why do you constantly talk about the oppression of Muslims but rarely of oppression BY Muslims?
                              in this day of europeans and americans invading muslim lands, kidnapping muslims, dropping bombs and drones upon muslims, responsible for over a million muslim deaths, corrupting the leadership of muslim nations and basically treating the islamic world to a military feeding frenzy and all YOU can see is the "violence of muslims"?

                              you are a comic beyond belief
                              .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                              نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                              دولة الإسلامية باقية





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                              • #30
                                Re: Muslim indifference to violence

                                Originally posted by muqallid View Post
                                This guy is a bigger idiot than I first thought
                                he is intelligent as far as dunya goes, as far as akhira goes, he is a complete jahil
                                .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                                نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                                دولة الإسلامية باقية





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