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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by serio View Post
    I find that hilarious! Has any resolution been passed? When we commit a crime we are called terrorist, but others are just called criminals. When we do something wrong we are called extremist but when others do it they are referred to by their own name/groups name. When Israel use chemical warfare against Palestines its just their right to defend their country but when an Islamic country use it its called weapon of mass destruction, and they be sending UN officials to 'observe' the country and disarm all their weapons or face the consequences of being attack by US and its allies.

    France doesnt allow muslims to wear hijab..isn't that imposing on society? If you go to india you can't slaughter a cow..isnt that imposing on society? And im just scratching the surface here. So why just pick on Islam? If you want to talk about imposing on society every country does it but ours gets more publicity cos every one is out to kill Islam..we get that.
    It's not the outcome, it's the intention that is significant.

    I absolutely agree with you that any country or organisation which commits human rights/Geneva Convention abuses should be brought to book. No exceptions (that includes Israel). However, that has nothing to do with the question of compulsion in religion.

    If France had just banned the hijab, it would have been wrong, but they didn't. The law outlaws covering the face in public (it does not apply when in private cars), including masks, balaclavas and motorcycle helmets (except when riding a bike).
    Passing laws on the basis of religious sensibilities is wrong (eg, Irish abortion laws), as is any law prohibiting the practice of any religion (unless it causes harm or suffering).
    This is an Islamic forum so Islam is the subject. I don't discuss Islam on Christian fora. Plus, compulsion is somewhat more relevant to Islam. I don't remember any bishops endorsing death for apostates (well, not for many centuries).

    Very few people are out to "kill Islam" specifically (although there are many who would like to see the end of all religions.) Certainly far fewer than the Muslims who publicly avow the end of "the West", etc, in violent terms.
    Now, I am far too sensible to think that these people represent anything but a small, crackpot element on both sides. How about you?

    Leave a comment:


  • serio
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    ?..Organisation of the Islamic Conference continually pressing the UN for resolutions against criticism of Islam.
    I find that hilarious! Has any resolution been passed? When we commit a crime we are called terrorist, but others are just called criminals. When we do something wrong we are called extremist but when others do it they are referred to by their own name/groups name. When Israel use chemical warfare against Palestines its just their right to defend their country but when an Islamic country use it its called weapon of mass destruction, and they be sending UN officials to 'observe' the country and disarm all their weapons or face the consequences of being attack by US and its allies.

    France doesnt allow muslims to wear hijab..isn't that imposing on society? If you go to india you can't slaughter a cow..isnt that imposing on society? And im just scratching the surface here. So why just pick on Islam? If you want to talk about imposing on society every country does it but ours gets more publicity cos every one is out to kill Islam..we get that.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by serio View Post
    "Imposed on society"
    Nobody is imposing anything. You are free to decide. If you think the Quran is imposing something and you dont like it then you can always not follow it. Nobody is stopping you. Even Allah is not stopping you. Are you worried that you will be making a mistake if you decide not to follow it? Are you afraid that you will be punished in the after life? Well that is for you to decide.

    Just like a job..you dont like the job you are doing, you can always leave. Hate your boss? You can leave and find another job. Nobody is forcing you to stay at one place and work there for the rest of your life. The point here is..you have a choice. Just like religion. You have a choice. Just because a company practices certain rules doesnt mean it has to satisfy everyone. Those who are happy with it can stay, those who are not can leave and those looking for a job can also choose to apply or look for another job. Simple.
    I'm not even going to start on the whole issue of apostasy or living in a country where the the constitution or legal system is based on the Quran & Hadith, or the Organisation of the Islamic Conference continually pressing the UN for resolutions against criticism of Islam.

    That's a whole new can o'worms.

    Leave a comment:


  • serio
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    As I have said before, religion is a matter of faith and belief. It needs to exist without proof, as a matter of the heart. It also needs to be a personal thing, not something imposed on society or individuals, both in acceptance and in the details.
    "Imposed on society"
    Nobody is imposing anything. You are free to decide. If you think the Quran is imposing something and you dont like it then you can always not follow it. Nobody is stopping you. Even Allah is not stopping you. Are you worried that you will be making a mistake if you decide not to follow it? Are you afraid that you will be punished in the after life? Well that is for you to decide.

    Just like a job..you dont like the job you are doing, you can always leave. Hate your boss? You can leave and find another job. Nobody is forcing you to stay at one place and work there for the rest of your life. The point here is..you have a choice. Just like religion. You have a choice. Just because a company practices certain rules doesnt mean it has to satisfy everyone. Those who are happy with it can stay, those who are not can leave and those looking for a job can also choose to apply or look for another job. Simple.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by serio View Post
    Not everything can be explained logically. Religion is not about science or some equation that you can derived from some computation and analysis. Somethings you need your heart to feel it, and thats the beauty of religion. You don't need proof, you dont need facts, you just feel it in your heart. So a man of science like yourself would never understand people like us, who follow our hearts, that deeper feeling in us that understands all this, not matter how illogical it might seem to you. And vice versa. If you want to question and analyse things perhaps read another book or refute some scientist claims or newtons theory or things like that.

    Whats your obsession with trying to proof the Quran is flawed (which its not by the way)? Nobody asked you to follow it if you dont wish to. Thats the core of Islam in fact. Theres no compulsion in religion. You dont like it..fine, thats your choice. But stop questioning people who follows it. We didnt ask you to stop thinking everything logically, did we?
    I agree with you. Art, literature, music, the great outdoors, all stir something intangible and on a purely personal level mean more to me than logic and science. But I do not need to invoke the supernatural or suspend disbelief. Nor do I insist that people who do not like Modigliani, de Bernieres or Mussorgski are somehow inferior and will be made to suffer for it, or hope for a world which only contains the things I approve of. I wouldn't expect special consideration on the grounds of my tastes in the arts.

    My "obsession" derives from the attempts to make the Quran out to be a scientifically miraculous book of testable predictions or a basis for a workable, modern legal system (which it patently isn't).

    As I have said before, religion is a matter of faith and belief. It needs to exist without proof, as a matter of the heart. It also needs to be a personal thing, not something imposed on society or individuals, both in acceptance and in the details.

    Leave a comment:


  • kh4N
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    You could! You could actually explain why it proves that and show where I went wrong.

    Just saying "You are wrong!" doesn't mean anything. Critical analysis is the basis of so much of our knowledge. We achieve nothing by replying to arguments with "lol".

    You will notice that my arguments, whether you like them or not, are given a logical base, with evidence if available. They may be utterly wrong. If they are, it should be easy for y'all to refute them with logic and evidence. However, the replies mostly consist of lols, quotes from the Quran & Hadith or suggestions that I study Islam more.

    Come on, defend your position!
    Your arguments are based on logic and evidence? lol? Would you like me to quote some of your "arguments" based on emotions or would you rather rely on your memory?

    Leave a comment:


  • serio
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    You could! You could actually explain why it proves that and show where I went wrong.

    Just saying "You are wrong!" doesn't mean anything. Critical analysis is the basis of so much of our knowledge. We achieve nothing by replying to arguments with "lol".

    You will notice that my arguments, whether you like them or not, are given a logical base, with evidence if available. They may be utterly wrong. If they are, it should be easy for y'all to refute them with logic and evidence. However, the replies mostly consist of lols, quotes from the Quran & Hadith or suggestions that I study Islam more.

    Come on, defend your position!
    Not everything can be explained logically. Religion is not about science or some equation that you can derived from some computation and analysis. Somethings you need your heart to feel it, and thats the beauty of religion. You don't need proof, you dont need facts, you just feel it in your heart. So a man of science like yourself would never understand people like us, who follow our hearts, that deeper feeling in us that understands all this, not matter how illogical it might seem to you. And vice versa. If you want to question and analyse things perhaps read another book or refute some scientist claims or newtons theory or things like that.

    Whats your obsession with trying to proof the Quran is flawed (which its not by the way)? Nobody asked you to follow it if you dont wish to. Thats the core of Islam in fact. Theres no compulsion in religion. You dont like it..fine, thats your choice. But stop questioning people who follows it. We didnt ask you to stop thinking everything logically, did we?

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Couldn't have said it better!
    You could! You could actually explain why it proves that and show where I went wrong.

    Just saying "You are wrong!" doesn't mean anything. Critical analysis is the basis of so much of our knowledge. We achieve nothing by replying to arguments with "lol".

    You will notice that my arguments, whether you like them or not, are given a logical base, with evidence if available. They may be utterly wrong. If they are, it should be easy for y'all to refute them with logic and evidence. However, the replies mostly consist of lols, quotes from the Quran & Hadith or suggestions that I study Islam more.

    Come on, defend your position!

    Leave a comment:


  • Faith1
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    We are a witness against ourselves. If Allah hasn't gave us life here first, on the day of judgement, everyone that is going to hell would have said that had we been given life we would have done good etc so God is allowing us to be a witness against ourselves and amongst others. Our body itself will testify against us.. So there is no denying in the hereafter.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by indexer View Post
    It is a shame you are not really curious but just here to spew out your ignorance and hatred.
    Hatred? Really? I don't hate anyone. I certainly don't think that three quarters of the world's population are inferior to me and wish on them an eternity of torment. I merely maintain that what you believe in is a delusion and try to show that. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they hate you. I think you may be projecting here. Also, I think you may be confusing hubris with confidence (I have shown that I am quite happy to admit what I don't know and when I am shown to be wrong. More people should try it).
    Ignorant? Certainly in some areas. I don't claim knowledge of the perfect, all pervading truth (it doesn't exist). Instead of replying with accusations, insults and quotes from scripture, how about using facts, evidence and logic? We'd all be better off.

    I am not here for approval, merely to challenge the unsubstantiated claims of the Quran (don't worry, I do this with all brands of religion, I'm not singling out Islam) so I'm not sure who these "chums" are.

    Th idea that the Quran is consistent is unfathomable to me. This is based on the evidence. Your view that it is is based on it being perfect = circular logic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mohamed Mifxal
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Allah wrote our fate because he sees the future with or without his influence.
    Last edited by Mohamed Mifxal; 16-11-13, 07:06 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • serio
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    As per zeeshan's post "And when you see those who engage in [offensive] discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people"
    ..i think thats the best way to deal with dumba$$ really curious...oopss sorry dude..Qadh again.

    So just leave him with his thoughts and all knowing self..there is no point in cotinuing our discussion with him.

    Leave a comment:


  • indexer
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    The simple fact that you have to go through such convoluted semantic gymnastics to get (not very) close to the desired meaning must be proof that this was not written by an omniscient god but by medieval man with a loose grasp of physiology and reproduction, writing in the vernacular of the time. One version makes perfect sense, the other makes no sense. If he was telling Muhammad about reproduction, why not say that he created us from "sperm" originating from the "testes" which joins with a woman's "egg" from between the backbone and the ribs (see, it would work there). The words in " " would be actual definitive words with no ambiguity as to their meaning (words which are absent in the Quran). If this is not possible in classical Arabic, he should have used a language in which it is possible.
    It is a shame you are not really curious but just here to spew out your ignorance and hatred. The fact that fellow chums even turned their backs on you says a lot, but you are a person exuding hubrisness. The idea that the Quraan is consistent is unfathomable to you, your mind is already made up and you will see religion through those tainted lenses. 'Reason' and 'science' is just a mask.

    025.021 - And those who look not for a meeting with Us say: Why are angels not sent down unto us and (Why) do we not see our Lord! Assuredly they think too highly of themselves and are scornful with great pride.
    025.022 - On the day when they behold the angels, on that day there will be no good tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban!

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kh4N View Post
    This post can just be added to the list of posts you've made that prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

    "Elites", that made me lol.
    Couldn't have said it better!

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Pick up a book on Usul ul Fiqh and read the chapter about the 'Aam and Khaas. That example of yours and many others which you choose either out of ignorance or out of sheer adversity to Islam and then claim 'Look Contradiction' will be answered in the space of one page.
    "Some Muslims claim there is no need for Usul al-Fiqh, thinking one can directly go to the text of the Qur‟an and Sunnah and derive laws. Such a claim really illustrates ignorance in understanding Islam. It is impossible to derive laws without being equipped with the necessary tools. These tools enable us to understand the text of the Qur‟an and Sunnah, and without understanding the text; one would not be able to extract laws."

    "without being aware of the rules of Arabic grammar for interpreting the text of Qur‟an and Sunnah, one would not be able to differentiate whether the command in the Ayah or Hadith for a certain action is Haram (forbidden) or Makruh"

    "Since rulings are derived based on Usul al-Fiqh, a variation in Usul al-Fiqh may result in different rulings. This is one of the reasons that there might exist more than one ruling on some issues."

    "It is a miracle from Allah that the texts of the Qur‟an and Sunnah have the ability to express numerous rulings from a single Ayah and Hadith; whereas, the ability to understand many meanings from a single text cannot be found in any other legal text in the world!" (Just to be clear here, proper legal systems go to great lengths to ensure that this can not happen, as it is an invitation to partisan interpretation).
    Understanding Usul al-Fiqh - Abu/Beirawi

    Leave a comment:

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