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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
    so whats ur point really curious ? THERE IS NO GOD ??
    No. We cannot be 100% certain.
    However, there is no real, testable evidence for any of the gods.
    Also, almost everything that was once attributed to gods now has a real, natural explanation. On the other hand, nothing that once had a natural explanations is now attributed to gods.
    Of the few things left unexplained there is a better explanation than the supernatural, especially in light of the above.
    Every proper test has shown that prayer does not work.
    There has never been proof for any miracle other than hearsay.
    Then there are the philosophical questions like "the problem of evil".
    And the inaccuracies and contradictions in the sacred texts.

    So, taking everything into account, there is no good reason to think that he does exist.

    Comment


    • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

      Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
      And u think , u aknow everything , u r the all wise ? Lmao
      No, but I look at the evidence and think for myself. As we all should.

      Comment


      • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
        And to be honest , i do believe in a god. but m having doubts about the free will ,qadr etc !
        belief in qadr is one of the six articles of iman, i suggest you do some research on it. there should be no doubt

        Comment


        • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

          Originally posted by UFM View Post
          belief in qadr is one of the six articles of iman, i suggest you do some research on it. there should be no doubt
          yes , i am doing research on it . i just dont get the logic of it


          What is this Qadr , many say i am having all this problem due to lack of iman and belief in qadr. I find it ridiculous- the concept of Qadr. Allah has pre determined everything, he knows who will be in heaven and hell. All had been pre written, Then what is the logic in this so called TESTING. Isnt it kind of playing a FIXED MATCH ?? God is being cruel towards all the non muslims by making them not to believe and leading them to hell !!

          Comment


          • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

            Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
            yes , i am doing research on it . i just dont get the logic of it


            What is this Qadr , many say i am having all this problem due to lack of iman and belief in qadr. I find it ridiculous- the concept of Qadr. Allah has pre determined everything, he knows who will be in heaven and hell. All had been pre written, Then what is the logic in this so called TESTING. Isnt it kind of playing a FIXED MATCH ?? God is being cruel towards all the non muslims by making them not to believe and leading them to hell !!

            an extract from the following links below, please have a look at them as this is very detailed topic for me to try and explain:

            Belief in al-qadar is based on four things:

            1 – Knowledge, i.e., that Allaah knows what His creation will do, by virtue of His eternal knowledge.

            2 – Writing, i.e., that Allaah has written the destiny of all creatures in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz.

            3 – Will, i.e., that what Allaah wills happens and what He does not will does not happen. There is no movement in the heavens or on earth but it happens by His will.

            4 – Creation and formation, i.e., that Allaah is the Creator of all things, including the actions of His slaves. They do their actions in a real sense, and He is the Creator of them and of their actions.

            Whoever believes in these four believes in al-qadar.


            http://islamqa.info/en/123973

            http://islamqa.info/en/6287

            http://islamqa.info/en/20806

            Comment


            • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

              Originally posted by UFM View Post
              an extract from the following links below, please have a look at them as this is very detailed topic for me to try and explain:

              Belief in al-qadar is based on four things:

              1 – Knowledge, i.e., that Allaah knows what His creation will do, by virtue of His eternal knowledge.

              2 – Writing, i.e., that Allaah has written the destiny of all creatures in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz.

              3 – Will, i.e., that what Allaah wills happens and what He does not will does not happen. There is no movement in the heavens or on earth but it happens by His will.

              4 – Creation and formation, i.e., that Allaah is the Creator of all things, including the actions of His slaves. They do their actions in a real sense, and He is the Creator of them and of their actions.

              Whoever believes in these four believes in al-qadar.
              This can only reinforce kqaleel's idea that it is an unfair "fixed match".
              The four points above leave absolutely no room for us to change our destiny. Whatever we do is by Allah's will, he has foreseen it happening and written it down.
              He created me a non-believer and decreed that I should remain so. This means that I am going to hell, by his command, with no opportunity for me to change. But the Quran says that Allah does not create us to be unbelievers. It also says that our purpose is to worship him. It also says he is most merciful and most just. If he has decided, before we were born, that I and millions like me would be unbelievers and go to hell, this directly contradicts the Quran. It cannot work both ways.

              Either we have free will to change our destiny and are therefore responsible for our actions,
              Or, our destiny is predetermined by Allah and we have no free will to change it and are therefore not responsible and any eternal punishment is unjust and unmerciful, two qualities alien to Allah (according to the Quran).

              Which is it?

              Comment


              • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                Originally posted by Speculation
                What are the inaccuracies and contradiction in the texts?
                I have just explained one in post #113.
                Also in 4:119 It is Satan who leads us astray, but this contradicts al-qadar which says that Allah decides everything. It is specifically contradicted in 16:93 and 10:100.

                Another example from many. Sura 67:5 where the Quran describes the stars as being in the "lowest of the seven heavens" and that they were created as "missiles to drive away Satans". This is reiterated in 37:6-8.

                Whom we should obey? "They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever. " 18:26 "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger" 4:59

                Allah can't be seen (6:103) Allah can be seen (53:1-18)

                Allah cannot have a son (6:101). Allah can have a son (39:4)

                A day for Allah is 1000 years (22.47) and also 50000 years (70:4)

                Man is described as being created from such diverse things as: clay (15:26), dust (3:59), sperm (16:4), blood clot (96:2), water (21:30), and nothing (19:67).

                Day and night depend on the orbits of the sun and moon (21:33) Day and night actually depend on the rotation of the earth.

                Allah creates thunder and lightening as signs (13:13)

                Sperm comes from between the backbone and the ribs (88:6) Coincidentally, this is where Hippocrates thought it came from. Many of the medical "miracles" correspond closely to existing Greek teachings.

                The list goes on...

                Remember that the Quran is miraculous and cannot be improved in any way. Removing any one of the many contradictions or errors would improve it.

                Comment


                • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                  ReallyCurious,

                  I will address your points tonight, Inshaa Allah.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                    P.S. I cannot edit my post so I am forced to make a follow up.
                    I recommend you read the following post I made a few days ago: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...=1#post5477721

                    It is will outline some basic Quraanic concepts which I will dwell further into tonight.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                      Originally posted by indexer View Post
                      P.S. I cannot edit my post so I am forced to make a follow up.
                      I recommend you read the following post I made a few days ago: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...=1#post5477721

                      It is will outline some basic Quraanic concepts which I will dwell further into tonight.
                      I have read your post. It only contains doctrinal rhetoric. All your points require a de facto belief in the Quran and do not address any of the issues raised.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                        Originally posted by indexer View Post
                        ReallyCurious,

                        I will address your points tonight, Inshaa Allah.
                        I look forward to a definitive resolution of the predestination/free will issue.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                          Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                          I have just explained one in post #113.
                          Also in 4:119 It is Satan who leads us astray, but this contradicts al-qadar which says that Allah decides everything. It is specifically contradicted in 16:93 and 10:100.

                          Another example from many. Sura 67:5 where the Quran describes the stars as being in the "lowest of the seven heavens" and that they were created as "missiles to drive away Satans". This is reiterated in 37:6-8.

                          Whom we should obey? "They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever. " 18:26 "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger" 4:59

                          Allah can't be seen (6:103) Allah can be seen (53:1-18)

                          Allah cannot have a son (6:101). Allah can have a son (39:4)

                          A day for Allah is 1000 years (22.47) and also 50000 years (70:4)

                          Man is described as being created from such diverse things as: clay (15:26), dust (3:59), sperm (16:4), blood clot (96:2), water (21:30), and nothing (19:67).

                          Day and night depend on the orbits of the sun and moon (21:33) Day and night actually depend on the rotation of the earth.

                          Allah creates thunder and lightening as signs (13:13)

                          Sperm comes from between the backbone and the ribs (88:6) Coincidentally, this is where Hippocrates thought it came from. Many of the medical "miracles" correspond closely to existing Greek teachings.

                          The list goes on...

                          Remember that the Quran is miraculous and cannot be improved in any way. Removing any one of the many contradictions or errors would improve it.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                            Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                            This can only reinforce kqaleel's idea that it is an unfair "fixed match".
                            The four points above leave absolutely no room for us to change our destiny. Whatever we do is by Allah's will, he has foreseen it happening and written it down.
                            He created me a non-believer and decreed that I should remain so. This means that I am going to hell, by his command, with no opportunity for me to change. But the Quran says that Allah does not create us to be unbelievers. It also says that our purpose is to worship him. It also says he is most merciful and most just. If he has decided, before we were born, that I and millions like me would be unbelievers and go to hell, this directly contradicts the Quran. It cannot work both ways.

                            Either we have free will to change our destiny and are therefore responsible for our actions,
                            Or, our destiny is predetermined by Allah and we have no free will to change it and are therefore not responsible and any eternal punishment is unjust and unmerciful, two qualities alien to Allah (according to the Quran).

                            Which is it?
                            It is just an extract please read the rest

                            Comment


                            • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                              Originally posted by UFM View Post
                              It is just an extract please read the rest
                              I have, and it makes less sense than the abstract.
                              The three article contradict each other and a couple are internally contradictory. They explicitly state that everything is decreed by Allah and recorded by him. Nothing happens that is not foretold and written by him. They then say that we have free will to make our own choices. They are mutually exclusive! One of the articles then goes on to say that people cam make choices that go against Allah's decree, but he knew this was going to happen anyway, which means that it wasn't against his will. And we will end up with his decree anyway.

                              It is absolutely clear that the whole issue is based on two mutually exclusive ideas, both of which are contained in the Quran. The three article you linked to only provided more evidence to show this. This shows the Quran to be self contradictory and therefore not miraculous or divine.

                              Some quotes from the articles: (with my notes)

                              "nothing exists outside of His will and decree. He wrote down all things" (No free will)

                              "If something happens to a person, it could not have missed him, and if something does not happen to him, it could not have happened to him." (No free will) (Free will), but it is subject to the will of the Creator (No free will)."

                              "Allaah has decreed all things from eternity and knows that they will happen at times that are known to Him, and in specific ways, and that He has written that and willed it, and they happen according to what He has decreed." (No free will) (Free will), and Allaah is the Creator of their actions (No free will). People have control over their actions, and they have their own will, (Free will) and Allaah is the Creator of their control and will" (No free will)

                              "If Allaah has decreed that you will marry one person, but you choose someone else (Free will), then no matter how long it takes, you will marry that person. But your marriage to someone else is also decreed, because there is nothing that is not decreed by Allaah (No free will)."

                              "may answer many questions that the atheists raise in order to confuse people" I raise the questions to clarify the issue. It is the Quran that is confused.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                                Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                                I have, and it makes less sense than the abstract.
                                The three article contradict each other and a couple are internally contradictory. They explicitly state that everything is decreed by Allah and recorded by him. Nothing happens that is not foretold and written by him. They then say that we have free will to make our own choices. They are mutually exclusive! One of the articles then goes on to say that people cam make choices that go against Allah's decree, but he knew this was going to happen anyway, which means that it wasn't against his will. And we will end up with his decree anyway.

                                It is absolutely clear that the whole issue is based on two mutually exclusive ideas, both of which are contained in the Quran. The three article you linked to only provided more evidence to show this. This shows the Quran to be self contradictory and therefore not miraculous or divine.

                                Some quotes from the articles: (with my notes)

                                "nothing exists outside of His will and decree. He wrote down all things" (No free will)

                                "If something happens to a person, it could not have missed him, and if something does not happen to him, it could not have happened to him." (No free will)

                                "A person is not forced to obey or disobey Allaah – he has free will as befits his state (Free will), but it is subject to the will of the Creator (No free will)."

                                "Allaah has decreed all things from eternity and knows that they will happen at times that are known to Him, and in specific ways, and that He has written that and willed it, and they happen according to what He has decreed." (No free will)

                                "with regard to man’s deeds: People act in a real sense (Free will), and Allaah is the Creator of their actions (No free will). People have control over their actions, and they have their own will, (Free will) and Allaah is the Creator of their control and will" (No free will)

                                "If Allaah has decreed that you will marry one person, but you choose someone else (Free will), then no matter how long it takes, you will marry that person. But your marriage to someone else is also decreed, because there is nothing that is not decreed by Allaah (No free will)."

                                "may answer many questions that the atheists raise in order to confuse people" I raise the questions to clarify the issue. It is the Quran that is confused.

                                REALLY CURIOUS i hav this doubt

                                lets assume the quran was not from God, prophet Muhammed just fabricated something from his knowledge and intellect , WHAT WAS THE NEED FOR HIM TO MAKE THE NOMADIC ARABIAN COMMUNITY CIVILIZED ?
                                He could have just enjoyed with the rest , doing all sort of illegal immoral things , BUT HE (IF U SAY THERE WAS NO PROPHET -SOMEONE WOULD HAVE DEFINITELY AUTHORED THE BOOK AS QURAN IS THE LIVING PROOF ) tried to change the face of Arabic community by talking about many great things and helping the people of that time to lead a successful life.

                                SO DUDE , WE SHOULD ACCEPT THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING EXTRA ORDINARY IN THE QURAAN AND IT WAS NOT MAN MADE. IF NOT MAN MADE , THEN BY WHOM ?? THIS WILL LEAD TO A SUPER POWER , GOD !!

                                PS: STILL I DONT GET THIS QADR STUFF :D

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