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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Moore is the only embryologist in the world who has given published credence to these claims. He was paid by the Saudi royal family to rubber stamp the "miraculous" claims.

    If you have 100 experts who say X is right and Y is wrong, but you have just one expert B who says Y is right. Then you find that expert B was paid by Y, you disregard his opinion. Simple data analysis protocol.
    Moore tries to avoid the subject when questioned. On his lengthy and detailed biog on the American Anatomists Association, he makes no mention of it. He never converted to Islam, as has been suggested by many.
    www.anatomy.org/content/keith-l-moore

    A renowned ex-Muslim went to the trouble of interviewing the scientists quoted as supporters of Quranic scientific miracles. They all say that they were misrepresented, misquoted or just being charitable to generous hosts.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ0hlUpYdTk

    Leave a comment:


  • kqaleel
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    How could Muhammad have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad ). They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.7

    Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore8 is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.

    In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.”9 (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here Video Clip).

    Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty in accepting this.”10

    During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.”11

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    Al Bukharhi Vol 4, Ch 3, p282. Abu Qatada mentioning Allah’s saying: “And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps . . .” (v. 67:5) said, “The creation of these stars is for three purposes, and they are: 1) as decoration of the nearest heaven, 2) as missiles to hit the devils, and 3) as signs to guide travelers. So, if anybody tries to find a different interpretation, he is mistaken and just wastes his efforts and troubles himself with what is beyond his limited knowledge.”

    "nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever."

    53 does, as you say, seem to refer to Gabriel.

    One verse says he cannot have offspring, one says he can. Rhetorical or not. Remember that the Quran is supposed to be perfect and without need of improvement.

    This sounds like equivocation. The length of a day is given as two vastly different values. Both of which are wrong.

    They may be describing different states of being/existence, but they are all wrong. Man is not created from any one thing from that list. I have always existed. We are all just rearrangements of existing matter. I was never a sperm. The embryo is only formed on the combining of genetic material from a sperm and an egg. Neither was I ever a blot clot in my mothers womb. Biology 101.

    It relates night and day to the sun and moon travelling in their orbits. It makes no mention of the actual cause of night and day. The sun does not have an orbit relative to the earth and moon. It is simply wrong. This is a prime example of trying to make reality fit the narrative.

    Lightening is caused by the movement of clouds. Thunder is merely the sound of lightening.

    The prostate is an exocrine gland that secretes an alkaline fluid which neutralises the acidic secretions of the vagina to increase survivability of sperm. Sperm from the testes does not pass through the prostate. The prostate is situated below the bladder. Apart from the testes, it is the lowest organ in the abdomen, nowhere near the ribs. More junior biology. Why does the Quran not use the word for testicles? It is because the male orgasm is a visceral sensation which is felt in the area of the mid-abdomen.
    Bearing in mind that the "miraculous Quran" challenge is that it cannot be improved by changing even one word, or some such, simply replacing "between the backbone and ribs" with "testes" or "seminal vescule" or "prostate" or any combination of the three, would vastly improve it by making it accurate.

    Likewise, simply mention that the earth has its own orbit, not the sun. Or that meteors are just specks of space dust burning up in the atmosphere, not "missiles to hit devils". Or that the stars aren't the closest heavenly bodies to earth but in fact the furthest away.

    You failed to address the really topical one, that of free will/predestination. No amount of equivocation or interpretation can fudge that issue.

    As a footnote, when discussing whether the Quran makes sense or not, you cannot explain inaccuracies by saying "Allah causes/creates everything anyway so that explains it". This is circular logic.
    They are all wrong and you are right. This assumption is based on the false belief that everything which science has told us regarding this existence is true and beyond a shadow of a doubt. And in the course of adopting this belief you have totally neglected the fact that most of what you consider to be facts in science are only theories and hypotheses. Laws are by far few and even those which are laws at a certain level don't hold at another level i.e Laws of Newton fail when you reach the atomic level.

    Given your reasoning I should start doubting Newtonian Laws since they fail to explain things at the molecular level.

    By the way you aren't one of those people who believe that there are aliens are you? I ask because I have a high school teacher on Facebook who is a staunch atheist but believes in aliens and that a man in India can live without food for 70 years?! Funny, how this teacher of mine is so scientifically oriented but holds such unscientific claims.

    Man is not created from any one thing from that list.
    That has to be one of the most far fetched statements I have ever come across. Even your Biology 101 tells you that you originated from water. Funny, how you dismiss that fact and yet use Biology 101 to rescue your argument in what follows.

    I have always existed.
    Goodness. This is a classical example of redefining terms. No, you have not always existed. You did not have the capabilities you do today and nor will you possess them when you die. To make that claim based on the belief that since everything I am made of existed hence I existed is illogical to say the least.

    We are all just rearrangements of existing matter. I was never a sperm.
    According to you you always existed. You are a rearrangement of existing matter. But you were never a sperm? Do you read what you type? Guess, based on this we can conclude sperm isn't existing matter!

    The embryo is only formed on the combining of genetic material from a sperm and an egg.
    But according to you, you always existed. Why even bother with the sperm and egg.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by indexer View Post
    Where does the verse say stars ? You would have had a point if it used the word 'najum/najm' which is the word the Quraan uses for stars but instead it uses misbaa7 which means lamps. In other words, anything that emits light, be that stars or meteorites as they enter the atmosphere. Infact, Ibn Kathir explicitly distinguished between the stars and the meteorites and went on to state that it is the meteorites that are used to pursue the shayaateen (as per the prophetic narration).

    Obeying the messenger IS obeying Allah, since the messenger is conveying the divine message. I am staggered you would even consider this a 'contradiction'.

    The adage a little knowledge is dangerous comes to mind. You assertion of 006.103 is correct. 053.001-018 is referring to Jibreel, not Allah. This is Islam 101.

    The latter is a rhetorical statement challenging certain statements made by the disbelievers, hence the glorification at the end of the verse. It is similar to the verse 021.017.

    Are you sure you are not copying/pasting these ? 007.004 is referring to judgement day which will measure 50k years whereas 022.047 is a comparative.


    These are all describing different states of being/existence. Is it not true at one point you didn't 'exist' i.e. nothing ? Is it not true at one point you were nothing short of a sperm ? And then a 'clot' in your mother's womb ? Is not 60-70% of our bodily composition water ? You really need to do better than this.



    021.033 - وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ ۖ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ
    021.033 - And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

    So do tell me where it says the night is dependent on the orbit of the sun and moon ? I am usually apprehensive of translations but pickthall did a reasonable job with this particular translation. The verse is saying the sun/moon have an orbit/trajectory which is correct.


    And your point ? Lightening is a sign of Allah, just as everything else in existence, including you and me.

    Do explain to me exactly what the prostrate is. Does semen eject from the testicles or from the prostrate region ?

    I will try to squeeze in some time for the other issues since it is a lengthy topic. But if not then I apologise and will have to leave it to another time.
    Al Bukharhi Vol 4, Ch 3, p282. Abu Qatada mentioning Allah’s saying: “And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps . . .” (v. 67:5) said, “The creation of these stars is for three purposes, and they are: 1) as decoration of the nearest heaven, 2) as missiles to hit the devils, and 3) as signs to guide travelers. So, if anybody tries to find a different interpretation, he is mistaken and just wastes his efforts and troubles himself with what is beyond his limited knowledge.”

    "nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever."

    53 does, as you say, seem to refer to Gabriel.

    One verse says he cannot have offspring, one says he can. Rhetorical or not. Remember that the Quran is supposed to be perfect and without need of improvement.

    This sounds like equivocation. The length of a day is given as two vastly different values. Both of which are wrong.

    They may be describing different states of being/existence, but they are all wrong. Man is not created from any one thing from that list. I have always existed. We are all just rearrangements of existing matter. I was never a sperm. The embryo is only formed on the combining of genetic material from a sperm and an egg. Neither was I ever a blot clot in my mothers womb. Biology 101.

    It relates night and day to the sun and moon travelling in their orbits. It makes no mention of the actual cause of night and day. The sun does not have an orbit relative to the earth and moon. It is simply wrong. This is a prime example of trying to make reality fit the narrative.

    Lightening is caused by the movement of clouds. Thunder is merely the sound of lightening.

    The prostate is an exocrine gland that secretes an alkaline fluid which neutralises the acidic secretions of the vagina to increase survivability of sperm. Sperm from the testes does not pass through the prostate. The prostate is situated below the bladder. Apart from the testes, it is the lowest organ in the abdomen, nowhere near the ribs. More junior biology. Why does the Quran not use the word for testicles? It is because the male orgasm is a visceral sensation which is felt in the area of the mid-abdomen.
    Bearing in mind that the "miraculous Quran" challenge is that it cannot be improved by changing even one word, or some such, simply replacing "between the backbone and ribs" with "testes" or "seminal vescule" or "prostate" or any combination of the three, would vastly improve it by making it accurate.

    Likewise, simply mention that the earth has its own orbit, not the sun. Or that meteors are just specks of space dust burning up in the atmosphere, not "missiles to hit devils". Or that the stars aren't the closest heavenly bodies to earth but in fact the furthest away.

    You failed to address the really topical one, that of free will/predestination. No amount of equivocation or interpretation can fudge that issue.

    As a footnote, when discussing whether the Quran makes sense or not, you cannot explain inaccuracies by saying "Allah causes/creates everything anyway so that explains it". This is circular logic.

    Leave a comment:


  • indexer
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    Another example from many. Sura 67:5 where the Quran describes the stars as being in the "lowest of the seven heavens" and that they were created as "missiles to drive away Satans". This is reiterated in 37:6-8.
    Where does the verse say stars ? You would have had a point if it used the word 'najum/najm' which is the word the Quraan uses for stars but instead it uses misbaa7 which means lamps. In other words, anything that emits light, be that stars or meteorites as they enter the atmosphere. Infact, Ibn Kathir explicitly distinguished between the stars and the meteorites and went on to state that it is the meteorites that are used to pursue the shayaateen (as per the prophetic narration).

    Whom we should obey? "They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever. " 18:26 "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger" 4:59
    Obeying the messenger IS obeying Allah, since the messenger is conveying the divine message. I am staggered you would even consider this a 'contradiction'.

    Allah can't be seen (6:103) Allah can be seen (53:1-18)
    The adage a little knowledge is dangerous comes to mind. You assertion of 006.103 is correct. 053.001-018 is referring to Jibreel, not Allah. This is Islam 101.

    Allah cannot have a son (6:101). Allah can have a son (39:4)
    The latter is a rhetorical statement challenging certain statements made by the disbelievers, hence the glorification at the end of the verse. It is similar to the verse 021.017.

    A day for Allah is 1000 years (22.47) and also 50000 years (70:4)
    Are you sure you are not copying/pasting these ? 007.004 is referring to judgement day which will measure 50k years whereas 022.047 is a comparative.


    Man is described as being created from such diverse things as: clay (15:26), dust (3:59), sperm (16:4), blood clot (96:2), water (21:30), and nothing (19:67).
    These are all describing different states of being/existence. Is it not true at one point you didn't 'exist' i.e. nothing ? Is it not true at one point you were nothing short of a sperm ? And then a 'clot' in your mother's womb ? Is not 60-70% of our bodily composition water ? You really need to do better than this.

    Day and night depend on the orbits of the sun and moon (21:33) Day and night actually depend on the rotation of the earth.
    021.033 - وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ ۖ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ
    021.033 - And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

    So do tell me where it says the night is dependent on the orbit of the sun and moon ? I am usually apprehensive of translations but pickthall did a reasonable job with this particular translation. The verse is saying the sun/moon have an orbit/trajectory which is correct.


    Allah creates thunder and lightening as signs (13:13)
    And your point ? Lightening is a sign of Allah, just as everything else in existence, including you and me.

    Sperm comes from between the backbone and the ribs (88:6) Coincidentally, this is where Hippocrates thought it came from. Many of the medical "miracles" correspond closely to existing Greek teachings.
    Do explain to me exactly what the prostrate is. Does semen eject from the testicles or from the prostrate region ?

    I will try to squeeze in some time for the other issues since it is a lengthy topic. But if not then I apologise and will have to leave it to another time.

    Leave a comment:


  • kqaleel
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    I have, and it makes less sense than the abstract.
    The three article contradict each other and a couple are internally contradictory. They explicitly state that everything is decreed by Allah and recorded by him. Nothing happens that is not foretold and written by him. They then say that we have free will to make our own choices. They are mutually exclusive! One of the articles then goes on to say that people cam make choices that go against Allah's decree, but he knew this was going to happen anyway, which means that it wasn't against his will. And we will end up with his decree anyway.

    It is absolutely clear that the whole issue is based on two mutually exclusive ideas, both of which are contained in the Quran. The three article you linked to only provided more evidence to show this. This shows the Quran to be self contradictory and therefore not miraculous or divine.

    Some quotes from the articles: (with my notes)

    "nothing exists outside of His will and decree. He wrote down all things" (No free will)

    "If something happens to a person, it could not have missed him, and if something does not happen to him, it could not have happened to him." (No free will)

    "A person is not forced to obey or disobey Allaah – he has free will as befits his state (Free will), but it is subject to the will of the Creator (No free will)."

    "Allaah has decreed all things from eternity and knows that they will happen at times that are known to Him, and in specific ways, and that He has written that and willed it, and they happen according to what He has decreed." (No free will)

    "with regard to man’s deeds: People act in a real sense (Free will), and Allaah is the Creator of their actions (No free will). People have control over their actions, and they have their own will, (Free will) and Allaah is the Creator of their control and will" (No free will)

    "If Allaah has decreed that you will marry one person, but you choose someone else (Free will), then no matter how long it takes, you will marry that person. But your marriage to someone else is also decreed, because there is nothing that is not decreed by Allaah (No free will)."

    "may answer many questions that the atheists raise in order to confuse people" I raise the questions to clarify the issue. It is the Quran that is confused.

    REALLY CURIOUS i hav this doubt

    lets assume the quran was not from God, prophet Muhammed just fabricated something from his knowledge and intellect , WHAT WAS THE NEED FOR HIM TO MAKE THE NOMADIC ARABIAN COMMUNITY CIVILIZED ?
    He could have just enjoyed with the rest , doing all sort of illegal immoral things , BUT HE (IF U SAY THERE WAS NO PROPHET -SOMEONE WOULD HAVE DEFINITELY AUTHORED THE BOOK AS QURAN IS THE LIVING PROOF ) tried to change the face of Arabic community by talking about many great things and helping the people of that time to lead a successful life.

    SO DUDE , WE SHOULD ACCEPT THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING EXTRA ORDINARY IN THE QURAAN AND IT WAS NOT MAN MADE. IF NOT MAN MADE , THEN BY WHOM ?? THIS WILL LEAD TO A SUPER POWER , GOD !!

    PS: STILL I DONT GET THIS QADR STUFF :D

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by UFM View Post
    It is just an extract please read the rest
    I have, and it makes less sense than the abstract.
    The three article contradict each other and a couple are internally contradictory. They explicitly state that everything is decreed by Allah and recorded by him. Nothing happens that is not foretold and written by him. They then say that we have free will to make our own choices. They are mutually exclusive! One of the articles then goes on to say that people cam make choices that go against Allah's decree, but he knew this was going to happen anyway, which means that it wasn't against his will. And we will end up with his decree anyway.

    It is absolutely clear that the whole issue is based on two mutually exclusive ideas, both of which are contained in the Quran. The three article you linked to only provided more evidence to show this. This shows the Quran to be self contradictory and therefore not miraculous or divine.

    Some quotes from the articles: (with my notes)

    "nothing exists outside of His will and decree. He wrote down all things" (No free will)

    "If something happens to a person, it could not have missed him, and if something does not happen to him, it could not have happened to him." (No free will) (Free will), but it is subject to the will of the Creator (No free will)."

    "Allaah has decreed all things from eternity and knows that they will happen at times that are known to Him, and in specific ways, and that He has written that and willed it, and they happen according to what He has decreed." (No free will) (Free will), and Allaah is the Creator of their actions (No free will). People have control over their actions, and they have their own will, (Free will) and Allaah is the Creator of their control and will" (No free will)

    "If Allaah has decreed that you will marry one person, but you choose someone else (Free will), then no matter how long it takes, you will marry that person. But your marriage to someone else is also decreed, because there is nothing that is not decreed by Allaah (No free will)."

    "may answer many questions that the atheists raise in order to confuse people" I raise the questions to clarify the issue. It is the Quran that is confused.

    Leave a comment:


  • UFM
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    This can only reinforce kqaleel's idea that it is an unfair "fixed match".
    The four points above leave absolutely no room for us to change our destiny. Whatever we do is by Allah's will, he has foreseen it happening and written it down.
    He created me a non-believer and decreed that I should remain so. This means that I am going to hell, by his command, with no opportunity for me to change. But the Quran says that Allah does not create us to be unbelievers. It also says that our purpose is to worship him. It also says he is most merciful and most just. If he has decided, before we were born, that I and millions like me would be unbelievers and go to hell, this directly contradicts the Quran. It cannot work both ways.

    Either we have free will to change our destiny and are therefore responsible for our actions,
    Or, our destiny is predetermined by Allah and we have no free will to change it and are therefore not responsible and any eternal punishment is unjust and unmerciful, two qualities alien to Allah (according to the Quran).

    Which is it?
    It is just an extract please read the rest

    Leave a comment:


  • kqaleel
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    I have just explained one in post #113.
    Also in 4:119 It is Satan who leads us astray, but this contradicts al-qadar which says that Allah decides everything. It is specifically contradicted in 16:93 and 10:100.

    Another example from many. Sura 67:5 where the Quran describes the stars as being in the "lowest of the seven heavens" and that they were created as "missiles to drive away Satans". This is reiterated in 37:6-8.

    Whom we should obey? "They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever. " 18:26 "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger" 4:59

    Allah can't be seen (6:103) Allah can be seen (53:1-18)

    Allah cannot have a son (6:101). Allah can have a son (39:4)

    A day for Allah is 1000 years (22.47) and also 50000 years (70:4)

    Man is described as being created from such diverse things as: clay (15:26), dust (3:59), sperm (16:4), blood clot (96:2), water (21:30), and nothing (19:67).

    Day and night depend on the orbits of the sun and moon (21:33) Day and night actually depend on the rotation of the earth.

    Allah creates thunder and lightening as signs (13:13)

    Sperm comes from between the backbone and the ribs (88:6) Coincidentally, this is where Hippocrates thought it came from. Many of the medical "miracles" correspond closely to existing Greek teachings.

    The list goes on...

    Remember that the Quran is miraculous and cannot be improved in any way. Removing any one of the many contradictions or errors would improve it.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by indexer View Post
    ReallyCurious,

    I will address your points tonight, Inshaa Allah.
    I look forward to a definitive resolution of the predestination/free will issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by indexer View Post
    P.S. I cannot edit my post so I am forced to make a follow up.
    I recommend you read the following post I made a few days ago: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...=1#post5477721

    It is will outline some basic Quraanic concepts which I will dwell further into tonight.
    I have read your post. It only contains doctrinal rhetoric. All your points require a de facto belief in the Quran and do not address any of the issues raised.

    Leave a comment:


  • indexer
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    P.S. I cannot edit my post so I am forced to make a follow up.
    I recommend you read the following post I made a few days ago: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...=1#post5477721

    It is will outline some basic Quraanic concepts which I will dwell further into tonight.

    Leave a comment:


  • indexer
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    ReallyCurious,

    I will address your points tonight, Inshaa Allah.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by Speculation
    What are the inaccuracies and contradiction in the texts?
    I have just explained one in post #113.
    Also in 4:119 It is Satan who leads us astray, but this contradicts al-qadar which says that Allah decides everything. It is specifically contradicted in 16:93 and 10:100.

    Another example from many. Sura 67:5 where the Quran describes the stars as being in the "lowest of the seven heavens" and that they were created as "missiles to drive away Satans". This is reiterated in 37:6-8.

    Whom we should obey? "They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever. " 18:26 "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger" 4:59

    Allah can't be seen (6:103) Allah can be seen (53:1-18)

    Allah cannot have a son (6:101). Allah can have a son (39:4)

    A day for Allah is 1000 years (22.47) and also 50000 years (70:4)

    Man is described as being created from such diverse things as: clay (15:26), dust (3:59), sperm (16:4), blood clot (96:2), water (21:30), and nothing (19:67).

    Day and night depend on the orbits of the sun and moon (21:33) Day and night actually depend on the rotation of the earth.

    Allah creates thunder and lightening as signs (13:13)

    Sperm comes from between the backbone and the ribs (88:6) Coincidentally, this is where Hippocrates thought it came from. Many of the medical "miracles" correspond closely to existing Greek teachings.

    The list goes on...

    Remember that the Quran is miraculous and cannot be improved in any way. Removing any one of the many contradictions or errors would improve it.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by UFM View Post
    an extract from the following links below, please have a look at them as this is very detailed topic for me to try and explain:

    Belief in al-qadar is based on four things:

    1 – Knowledge, i.e., that Allaah knows what His creation will do, by virtue of His eternal knowledge.

    2 – Writing, i.e., that Allaah has written the destiny of all creatures in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz.

    3 – Will, i.e., that what Allaah wills happens and what He does not will does not happen. There is no movement in the heavens or on earth but it happens by His will.

    4 – Creation and formation, i.e., that Allaah is the Creator of all things, including the actions of His slaves. They do their actions in a real sense, and He is the Creator of them and of their actions.

    Whoever believes in these four believes in al-qadar.
    This can only reinforce kqaleel's idea that it is an unfair "fixed match".
    The four points above leave absolutely no room for us to change our destiny. Whatever we do is by Allah's will, he has foreseen it happening and written it down.
    He created me a non-believer and decreed that I should remain so. This means that I am going to hell, by his command, with no opportunity for me to change. But the Quran says that Allah does not create us to be unbelievers. It also says that our purpose is to worship him. It also says he is most merciful and most just. If he has decided, before we were born, that I and millions like me would be unbelievers and go to hell, this directly contradicts the Quran. It cannot work both ways.

    Either we have free will to change our destiny and are therefore responsible for our actions,
    Or, our destiny is predetermined by Allah and we have no free will to change it and are therefore not responsible and any eternal punishment is unjust and unmerciful, two qualities alien to Allah (according to the Quran).

    Which is it?

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