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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • #46
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    ReallyCurious, are you implying that if you knew the reasons why God causes children to die, it might be justified?

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    • #47
      Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

      Originally posted by kh4N View Post
      ReallyCurious, are you implying that if you knew the reasons why God causes children to die, it might be justified?
      As I clearly stated in previous posts, the torment and death of innocent children can never be justified.
      It is the religious (of all types) who paint themselves into a corner of having to justify it as part of gods plan. As god knows and causes or allows everything, and he can do no wrong, then the pointless death and suffering of infants must have a good reason. Unfortunately, the only reason seems to be the circular logic of "god is good so his actions must be good. Allah knows best". We still have no good answer as to what his reasons might be but whatever they are, it is no justification for the needless suffering and death.
      The bottom line is that the god of the Abrahamic monotheisms has to be powerless to prevent the suffering, indifferent to it, or actively desires it. None of which can be possible under his accepted definition. Now, I'm not saying (as some do) that this is a proof of his non-existence, but it does take some explaining. Certainly more than "Allah knows best/God works in mysterious ways".

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      • #48
        Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
        As I clearly stated in previous posts, the torment and death of innocent children can never be justified.
        It is the religious (of all types) who paint themselves into a corner of having to justify it as part of gods plan. As god knows and causes or allows everything, and he can do no wrong, then the pointless death and suffering of infants must have a good reason. Unfortunately, the only reason seems to be the circular logic of "god is good so his actions must be good. Allah knows best". We still have no good answer as to what his reasons might be but whatever they are, it is no justification for the needless suffering and death.
        The bottom line is that the god of the Abrahamic monotheisms has to be powerless to prevent the suffering, indifferent to it, or actively desires it. None of which can be possible under his accepted definition. Now, I'm not saying (as some do) that this is a proof of his non-existence, but it does take some explaining. Certainly more than "Allah knows best/God works in mysterious ways".
        just so we're clear...

        Your position is based on your perception of morality/justice, right?

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        • #49
          Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

          Originally posted by kh4N View Post
          just so we're clear...

          Your position is based on your perception of morality/justice, right?
          Yes. As opposed to the divinely inspired version in which something is good if Allah does/says it. Including the killing of millions of innocent infants.
          Just so we're clear...

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          • #50
            Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

            Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
            Yes. As opposed to the divinely inspired version in which something is good if Allah does/says it. Including the killing of millions of innocent infants.
            Just so we're clear...
            Can we agree that death is not the pinnacle of justice.

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            • #51
              Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

              Originally posted by kh4N View Post
              Can we agree that death is not the pinnacle of justice.
              That is a non sequitur. What fixed relation does death have to justice? Also, how does justice have a "pinnacle"? I think you may be confusing justice with retribution or punishment. To answer what I think you are asking, from a believer's point of view; death is not the ultimate punishment, eternal hell would be. For a non-beliver, it may be, although many feel that capital punishment is never justified. In reality, a life of living with the consequences of their crime may be worse than a quick and painless death (a living hell if you like!) However, this would have nothing to do with the "pinnacle of justice". Something is either just or it is not. Justice is the fair and and equitable settlement of a dispute or conflict, or the fair and rational application of laws. Justice is done, whether it is between a child who has stolen a toy from another, of for a genocidal war criminal. The punishment will be different, but justice is the same.

              Anyway, the discussion wasn't about justice and punishment, it was about whether knowingly causing the suffering and death of innocent babies and infants can ever be justified (remember, these babies have committed no "crimes" co cannot be judged or punished). I say it can't. The people who speak on behalf of god say it can. What do you think?

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              • #52
                Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                That is a non sequitur. What fixed relation does death have to justice? Also, how does justice have a "pinnacle"? I think you may be confusing justice with retribution or punishment. To answer what I think you are asking, from a believer's point of view; death is not the ultimate punishment, eternal hell would be. For a non-beliver, it may be, although many feel that capital punishment is never justified. In reality, a life of living with the consequences of their crime may be worse than a quick and painless death (a living hell if you like!) However, this would have nothing to do with the "pinnacle of justice". Something is either just or it is not. Justice is the fair and and equitable settlement of a dispute or conflict, or the fair and rational application of laws. Justice is done, whether it is between a child who has stolen a toy from another, of for a genocidal war criminal. The punishment will be different, but justice is the same.

                Anyway, the discussion wasn't about justice and punishment, it was about whether knowingly causing the suffering and death of innocent babies and infants can ever be justified (remember, these babies have committed no "crimes" co cannot be judged or punished). I say it can't. The people who speak on behalf of god say it can. What do you think?
                When I said 'pinnacle of justice' I was implying the peak of justice. After someone dies he or she can no longer be held into account.

                Do you hold this view?

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                • #53
                  Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                  Originally posted by kh4N View Post
                  When I said 'pinnacle of justice' I was implying the peak of justice. After someone dies he or she can no longer be held into account.

                  Do you hold this view?
                  Again, there is no "peak" of justice. It is either served or not. Something is either just or unjust, there are no degrees.

                  What is your point? Is it relevant to the original discussion? If you are talking about the idea of punishing people after their death, that has nothing to do with justifying infanticide (although it would be nice if those responsible could be punished for ever! Sadly, all the evidence points against this.)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                    Again, there is no "peak" of justice. It is either served or not. Something is either just or unjust, there are no degrees.

                    What is your point? Is it relevant to the original discussion? If you are talking about the idea of punishing people after their death, that has nothing to do with justifying infanticide (although it would be nice if those responsible could be punished for ever! Sadly, all the evidence points against this.)
                    Let's avoid getting caught in semantics. Do you hold the view that a person is no longer held into account after his/her death?

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                    • #55
                      Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                      Originally posted by itanimulli View Post
                      Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                      Q: If God (Allah) truly is a 'God' in a sense that he knows EVERYTHING regardless of what it is or the circumstances of it - Then why do we exist?

                      God (Allah) claims to have given us 'free will'... But with this free will he knows what choices we will choose assuming that he is in fact the 'All Knowing'.. he also knows all of our intentions before we even start to think about the subject. So why do we exist?

                      We are threatened with torment in Hell yet we have no real choice in what we do or say or what we believe in, because when it all comes down to it, God (Allah) has planned for it to happen. He has planned for us to either die a Muslim or a Mushrik, he has planned for us to believe in him or not to believe in him.

                      Claiming we have 'free will' is as if you're saying 'Allah has given you the freedom to do as you wish' but why give us freedom when he has clear knowledge of what we will do with that 'freedom'. Before we existed he KNEW how we would die, so he planned it before hand.

                      This doesn't sound fair at all. The question seems long but it needs answering.
                      We are speaking now - you and myself. You have at this second got the chance to change and accept Allah(swt) and the prophet Mohammad(pbuh) and god willing have heaven.
                      I have the chance to move away from islam now and as you have said be threatened with hell ...

                      is that not free will?

                      You and every other non muslim right now can accept the truth - you have choice and the chance now to repent - at this moment - its good your asking these questions(may Allah guide you), but in doing so - you know you can avoid the torment of hell but moving away from ignorance and accepting Islam.

                      You know why Allah is so merciful - we are living life as a test and we have been given the answers through the quran and the saying of the prophet(pbuh).

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                        Originally posted by kh4N View Post
                        Let's avoid getting caught in semantics. Do you hold the view that a person is no longer held into account after his/her death?
                        No. A topical case in point is that of Jimmy Saville. He has been posthumously stripped of his knighthood as well as other memorial accolades being removed.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                          Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                          No. A topical case in point is that of Jimmy Saville. He has been posthumously stripped of his knighthood as well as other memorial accolades being removed.
                          Time to be more specific...

                          Do you believe in an afterlife?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                            Speaking of the suffering and death of innocent children; is it not true that the vast majority of them die from either preventable conditions or from man made problems? The biggest killers of children in the world are things like diarrhea, malaria, war, malnutrition related conditions even though there is no shortage of food. Allah (swt) provided us with a world of abundant resources to take care of the needs of everyone within it- then certain people whether due to vested interests or greed decide to hoard a greater proportion of those provisions and deliberately starve/bomb/deprive another section of the world until the people are destitute and the children are neglected or starving. Ever think about whose fault that is and why no one is seeking to hold them accountable for their evil deeds?
                            The Lyme Disease pandemic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5u73ME4sVU

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                            • #59
                              Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                              Originally posted by neelu View Post
                              Speaking of the suffering and death of innocent children; is it not true that the vast majority of them die from either preventable conditions or from man made problems? The biggest killers of children in the world are things like diarrhea, malaria, war, malnutrition related conditions even though there is no shortage of food. Allah (swt) provided us with a world of abundant resources to take care of the needs of everyone within it- then certain people whether due to vested interests or greed decide to hoard a greater proportion of those provisions and deliberately starve/bomb/deprive another section of the world until the people are destitute and the children are neglected or starving. Ever think about whose fault that is and why no one is seeking to hold them accountable for their evil deeds?
                              First of all, millions and millions of deaths have been caused by natural disasters. Second, innocent children being killed by war, malaria, earthquakes, murderers, droughts etc. are all one and the same. There is only one source that controls all these events : Allah

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                                Originally posted by neelu View Post
                                Speaking of the suffering and death of innocent children; is it not true that the vast majority of them die from either preventable conditions or from man made problems? The biggest killers of children in the world are things like diarrhea, malaria, war, malnutrition related conditions even though there is no shortage of food. Allah (swt) provided us with a world of abundant resources to take care of the needs of everyone within it- then certain people whether due to vested interests or greed decide to hoard a greater proportion of those provisions and deliberately starve/bomb/deprive another section of the world until the people are destitute and the children are neglected or starving. Ever think about whose fault that is and why no one is seeking to hold them accountable for their evil deeds?
                                I was specifically referring to events such as natural disasters and epidemics that are attributed to god, so as to avoid this kind of whataboutery.

                                And yes, I do.

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