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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • #31
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    I'm not digressing. Your answer to the seemingly intractable question of unnecessary suffering was "Allah knows best". I don't think it was a reasonable explanation. It was a lot of conjecture and speculation as to why people think that Allah may be doing things that seemingly make no sense. The speculations themselves don't seem reasonable either. Why would he torment and kill a child to test a relative? To say that he must have good reason is not enough. There is NO good reason for such actions.
    See post no 9,

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    • #32
      Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

      Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
      None of this addresses the question of why an all powerful, all merciful and all just god would deliberately cause suffering and death to millions of innocent children in order to test other people. He does not need to. He could devise a thousand ways to test people that don't involve such unnecessary suffering.
      Here's a thought. Why not create the test in a dream or hallucination? As it would be 100% real to the testee, the result would be just as conclusive and millions of innocent children would not have to die in agony. I'm not saying I'm smarter than Allah, or anything, but that idea took me about 5 seconds. He's had 1400 years.
      And you seem to think a test of one nights sleep is sufficient, people are tested for years and years, their whole lives

      Allah SWT has been around for more than 1400 years. Lol

      Allah SWT tests us in hundreds of different ways, I think you have fixated yourself on one issue and are therefore saying that his ways are unjust and so on and so forth.
      Last edited by UFM; 01-11-13, 02:46 PM.

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      • #33
        Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Originally posted by UFM View Post
        And you seem to think a test of one nights sleep is sufficient, people are tested for years and years, their whole lives

        Allah SWT has been around for more than 1400 years. Lol

        Allah SWT tests us in hundreds of different ways, I think you have fixated yourself on one issue and are therefore saying that his ways are unjust and so on and so forth.
        A dream or hallucination could appear to be a lifetime for the one experiencing it. Again, the question is raised as to the purpose of the test. If it is to find out the truth of their belief, then this should be sufficient. Why keep on tormenting someone until they snap? Sounds pretty sadistic to me.

        Why did he wait so long before making his presence known? Especially as there are thousands of gods which pre-exist him. Surely if he'd got in there before Jehova, Jesus' Dad and the many others, more people would be Muslims rather than the 23% as it stands today. As far as humans are concerned, he has existed for 1400 years.

        Yes, I am fixated with the question of the torment and killing of millions of children. If he tests us in so many ways, why not just cut out the one that needs millions of babies and infants to die in pain. I really am not happy with it and I'm not happy with any one or any system that can accept it as the reasonable behaviour of a merciful and just god. And neither should you be! This is actually relevant to the question of morality. Muslims (and the followers of other religions) will willingly accept the most immoral behaviour if it is done by, or demanded by, their god.

        But of course, AKB!

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        • #34
          Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

          Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
          A dream or hallucination could appear to be a lifetime for the one experiencing it. Again, the question is raised as to the purpose of the test. If it is to find out the truth of their belief, then this should be sufficient. Why keep on tormenting someone until they snap? Sounds pretty sadistic to me.

          Why did he wait so long before making his presence known? Especially as there are thousands of gods which pre-exist him. Surely if he'd got in there before Jehova, Jesus' Dad and the many others, more people would be Muslims rather than the 23% as it stands today. As far as humans are concerned, he has existed for 1400 years.

          Yes, I am fixated with the question of the torment and killing of millions of children. If he tests us in so many ways, why not just cut out the one that needs millions of babies and infants to die in pain. I really am not happy with it and I'm not happy with any one or any system that can accept it as the reasonable behaviour of a merciful and just god. And neither should you be! This is actually relevant to the question of morality. Muslims (and the followers of other religions) will willingly accept the most immoral behaviour if it is done by, or demanded by, their god.

          But of course, AKB!
          I think you forget which world your living in, your an idealist. It is heaven that is a place with no suffering, not this world. Allah SWT is not just tormenting anyone, these are part of life's challenges and people have to endure what's being tested of them.

          In Islam you will come to learn that the very first of creation was Adam pbuh and he was a Muslim, in fact Muslims believe that all prophets came to tell man about monotheism and submitting to Allah SWT. And a Muslim is a person who submits to Allah SWT. So anyone who rightly followed the prophets was a Muslim. But man as always either rejected the truth, denied it, deviated from it or changed it etc. so more research on your part please.

          No one wishes for the suffering of children, but one has to accept that it does happen in this world. I think you would have a general consensus from everyone from every religion that they would not like to see children suffer. And Allah does not demand any immoral behaviour what so ever from his followers, in fact quite the opposite.

          And as always Allah knows best
          Last edited by UFM; 01-11-13, 03:36 PM.

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          • #35
            Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

            Originally posted by UFM View Post
            No one wishes for the suffering of children, but one has to accept that it does happen in this world. I think you would have a general consensus from everyone from every religion that they would not like to see children suffer. And Allah does not demand any immoral behaviour what so ever from his followers, in fact quite the opposite.

            And as always Allah knows best
            This, I think, is the nub of the question. Pointless suffering does happen, on a massive scale. Only a monster would think it acceptable or would allow it to happen if it could be avoided. From an atheist viewpoint it is terrible but it is part of the natural process of things. All we can do is try to relieve the suffering through charity & relief work, healthcare etc, and try to prevent or reduce the effects through science. The religious, however, have to see these terrible events as being by the will of god. As god's will can only be good, there must be some justification for it, therefore the testing and "Allah knows best". The only basis for thinking this is the assertion that god must be good so therefore anything he does must have good reason. However, if we remove the religious dogma we will clearly see that there is NEVER good reason for killing children by the millions. Especially if it is merely to test the faith of another. Think about it. Please! Can't you see that underneath the "Allah knows best" and the "testing", what you are doing is excusing your god of immoral behaviour. Behaviour which (I hope) you would not hesitate to condemn in a fellow human.

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            • #36
              Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

              Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
              This, I think, is the nub of the question. Pointless suffering does happen, on a massive scale. Only a monster would think it acceptable or would allow it to happen if it could be avoided. From an atheist viewpoint it is terrible but it is part of the natural process of things. All we can do is try to relieve the suffering through charity & relief work, healthcare etc, and try to prevent or reduce the effects through science. The religious, however, have to see these terrible events as being by the will of god. As god's will can only be good, there must be some justification for it, therefore the testing and "Allah knows best". The only basis for thinking this is the assertion that god must be good so therefore anything he does must have good reason. However, if we remove the religious dogma we will clearly see that there is NEVER good reason for killing children by the millions. Especially if it is merely to test the faith of another. Think about it. Please! Can't you see that underneath the "Allah knows best" and the "testing", what you are doing is excusing your god of immoral behaviour. Behaviour which (I hope) you would not hesitate to condemn in a fellow human.
              I think your confusing things, you see your questions are typical questions that atheists ask. That god is unjust because of all the children suffering etc. yet you don't believe in god, and say it is the natural order of things. Religion gives many reasonable explanations of which I have given to you a few. Yet for you to understand something simple like what we say about Allah knows best is like people who are less likely to understand the wisdom of Allah in His creation than the common man is to understand mathematics, medicine and grammar. So objecting to Allah’s wisdom is more ignorant and the one who does that is worse off than an ignorant man who criticizes mathematics, medicine and grammar without having any knowledge of these disciplines.

              Children suffer for other reasons as well like letting us know their is sickness or pain, crying that is caused is actually beneficial for the body of the child, learning lessons for the family, thinking about what is important in life etc. there are many reasons. And I think for atheists it is better to reject then to understand and see a truth that is being spoken to them.

              And Allah never inflicts an atoms weight of injustice.

              And as always Allah knows best

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                Originally posted by UFM View Post
                I think the issue lies in your limited understanding of Islam and it's concepts, whereas Muslims studying their whole lives have difficulty understanding their own religion, you claim to understand it better. No one can judge or determine whether a person will go to hell or heaven other than Allah, so your claim of Hitler supposedly accepting Islam, which mind you never happened, is silly and therefore your whole statement becomes erroneous. And even a devout Muslim doing good deeds and praying is not guaranteed heaven without the mercy of Allah SWT, and again no one can say where he will end up other than Allah.

                As for my example on natural disasters, again you do not understand. A natural disaster is seen as a punishment for the wicked because as soon they die there torment will begin for eternity, whereas those righteous people in the midst of the wicked who perish in the natural disaster, will not be in torment but with the mercy of Allah saved from an eternal punishment.

                I think you need to do more research on Islam before you start attacking it and your maker.

                And Allah knows best
                Wrong on two counts.

                You don't know whether or not Hitler accepted Islam. You don't have access to his mind. Why do you not listen to your "only Allah knows" proposition in this situation?

                Second, you can know certain things, including the destination of a person's eternal abode in Islam. For example, Allah states that disbelievers will go to hellfire. Thus, any disbeliever must, no matter what, go to hellfire, unless you believe that the Qur'an contains statements that may be lies. Also, authentic hadith literature states that in the case of believers, hell will eventually be empty. So yes, unless you claim that the authentic hadith literature may be false, a believer is guaranteed heaven regardless of whether he/she enters it immediately or after a period in hell. You know less than what you claim.

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                • #38
                  Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                  Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                  None of this addresses the question of why an all powerful, all merciful and all just god would deliberately cause suffering and death to millions of innocent children in order to test other people. He does not need to. He could devise a thousand ways to test people that don't involve such unnecessary suffering.
                  Here's a thought. Why not create the test in a dream or hallucination? As it would be 100% real to the testee, the result would be just as conclusive and millions of innocent children would not have to die in agony. I'm not saying I'm smarter than Allah, or anything, but that idea took me about 5 seconds. He's had 1400 years.
                  Wrong. He's had a period of eternity to plan out His will. In a general sense, Islam was always there.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                    Do you know what circular reasoning is?

                    @ReasonCurious : In case you didn't notice, that was a compliment.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                      really*

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                        I suppose your point about hitler accepting Islam maybe valid but his life, and even his death which was suicide were not the acts of a Muslim. Truly Allah knows best.

                        Yes there is guidance about who goes to hell and heaven, but nothing is guaranteed.
                        You misunderstood what I was trying to say

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                          Originally posted by UFM View Post
                          I suppose your point about hitler accepting Islam maybe valid but his life, and even his death which was suicide were not the acts of a Muslim. Truly Allah knows best.

                          Yes there is guidance about who goes to hell and heaven, but nothing is guaranteed.
                          You misunderstood what I was trying to say
                          Can a believer, who dies as a believer, go to hell as an eternal destination? Can a disbeliever, who dies as a disbeliever, go to heaven? Unless the Qur'aan contains lies, the answer is no. This is an example of knowledge that a Muslim certainly knows.

                          If you are talking about how we can't know who exactly is a believer and who exactly is a disbeliever, then sure. I agree with you on this.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                            free will mean Allah show us a path and tell us what is wrong and what is right for us.it is up to us what the way we choose this is called free will.
                            Learn Quran for kids

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                            • #44
                              Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                              Originally posted by reason12 View Post
                              Can a believer, who dies as a believer, go to hell as an eternal destination? Can a disbeliever, who dies as a disbeliever, go to heaven? Unless the Qur'aan contains lies, the answer is no. This is an example of knowledge that a Muslim certainly knows.

                              If you are talking about how we can't know who exactly is a believer and who exactly is a disbeliever, then sure. I agree with you on this.
                              you never know the true condition in which a person dies, and a believer can go to hell, maybe not eternally, but he can if the mercy of Allah SWT is not granted to him, a popular Hadith is that no one can enter into heaven with his good deeds alone, without the mercy of Allah SWT. But also one should never despair in the mercy of Allah SWT.

                              Obviously a person in a state of disbelief is not heading in the direction of heaven.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                                Whether I believe in god or not is irrelevant to the justification of suffering which is claimed to be caused by god. I have to argue from the assumption that he does in order to show the inconsistencies in your argument.
                                You say you have given many reasonable explanations but these seem to be "it is a test" and "Allah knows best". This isn't a problem unique to Islam. Christianity also explains the irrational and unreasonable with their own mantra, "God works in mysterious ways" and ascribing the pointless suffering of infants to a test of faith.
                                You compare lack of understanding of the will of Allah to lack of understanding of mathematics and medicine. This is not the case. Maths and medicine are provable, demonstrable and make observable predictions. There are text books which show exactly how they work. Anyone can come to understand and practice them without having to accept anything on faith, unlike the "wisdom of Allah". You still need to show the wisdom of causing the deaths of millions of children in order to test the faith of believers.

                                We are all aware of the actual, physical causes of suffering. You are going a stage further and ascribing these to the "will of god". Because everything is his will, good or bad, you feel obliged to justify the bad stuff, but because there is no rational justification you invoke the mysteries of his wisdom. This is no different to the the way millions of ordinary Chinese justified the suffering of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. They would wave their sacred text and proclaim that "Mao knows best". No criticism of the accepted wisdom would be tolerated. But to the outside observer, it was clearly the result of indoctrination into a cult of the personality, with no logical foundation.

                                Merely saying that we don't understand the wisdom of Allah is not enough. You need to be able to explain it in terms other than "That's just the way it is. We mere mortals can't hope to understand it. Allah knows best".

                                You say that "Allah never inflicts an atoms weight of injustice." because you don't believe he can. To the outside observer, looking at the evidence of the real world, it seems fairly certain that he does.

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