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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • kh4N
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    Also, have you noticed that the Quran cannot be just read and understood by the common people. It needs to be interpreted by "scholars" who are equipped with the "necessary tools". This is common with all religious books as it keeps power in the hands of the Elite (similarly, owning a copy of the Bible in English was punishable by death until the 16th century. You had to have the "necessary tools" (Latin ie. an expensive education)).
    This post can just be added to the list of posts you've made that prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

    "Elites", that made me lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    If you need a book to get you to do good things and avoid evil, fair enough. I do that because it feels right, I do not need the threat of punishment or the incentive of reward.

    The Quran, like all other similar books, was written as a social control document. Belief in gods was the rule in those days, so that was the frame of reference used.
    The threat of hell and the reward of paradise were methods for controlling the population by the ruling classes, or those aspiring to power. Any ruler at the time needed divine authority (this was even the case until 18th century Europe!) Having a god who knew everything you did and said and who would punish you for it was like having a 24hr thought police. The elaborate rituals and requirements were traditional in all religions, they added weight and gravitas. It also helped justify the brutal and arbitrary nature of life. The god-fearing peasants who suffered on this earth would be rewarded in paradise, while those who oppressed them and seemed to get away scott free would be punished for eternity. Simple wishful thinking.

    BTW, What are you hoping for victory over? Are you at war with someone?
    Also, have you noticed that the Quran cannot be just read and understood by the common people. It needs to be interpreted by "scholars" who are equipped with the "necessary tools". This is common with all religious books as it keeps power in the hands of the Elite (similarly, owning a copy of the Bible in English was punishable by death until the 16th century. You had to have the "necessary tools" (Latin ie. an expensive education)).

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
    QURAN CONTAINS THINGS THAT WILL LEAD A MAN TO RIGHTEOUSNESS , DO GOOD THINGS AND WILL MAKE HIM STAY AWAY FROM EVIL.

    WHAT GOOD WILL THE AUTHOR GET BY LEADING THE MANKIND TO RIGHTEOUSNESS ??

    WHAT GOOD WILL THEY GET FROM IT ?
    If you need a book to get you to do good things and avoid evil, fair enough. I do that because it feels right, I do not need the threat of punishment or the incentive of reward.

    The Quran, like all other similar books, was written as a social control document. Belief in gods was the rule in those days, so that was the frame of reference used.
    The threat of hell and the reward of paradise were methods for controlling the population by the ruling classes, or those aspiring to power. Any ruler at the time needed divine authority (this was even the case until 18th century Europe!) Having a god who knew everything you did and said and who would punish you for it was like having a 24hr thought police. The elaborate rituals and requirements were traditional in all religions, they added weight and gravitas. It also helped justify the brutal and arbitrary nature of life. The god-fearing peasants who suffered on this earth would be rewarded in paradise, while those who oppressed them and seemed to get away scott free would be punished for eternity. Simple wishful thinking.


    BTW, What are you hoping for victory over? Are you at war with someone?

    Leave a comment:


  • truepath
    replied
    Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Ali (ra) said something along the lines that whatever comes your way be it good or bad, accepting that it is from Allah is qadr. over analyzing and trying to understand it further will only lead one to go astray

    As for disbelievers claiming that Allah has decided their fate to make them from among the disbelievers 50,000 years ago, then that is in Allah's knowledge as to who among them disbelievers will be end up dieing as a disbeliever.

    How do you know that He has not kept guidance for you? it is you who is denying him but saying he has deprived you from guidance. if you accept Him as your lord then that proves He did not decide your fate to end up as disbeliever and it will be also prove that he gave you free will by which you have chosen accept him as god.

    yet if you deny to recognise him then you decided to deny him out of your own choice and free will as you did not know whether he had kept guidance for you or not.

    so rather than being optimistic you chose a path of a pessimist and deny to recognise him out of your own free will
    Last edited by truepath; 15-11-13, 04:42 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • kqaleel
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    to really curious

    I am cleared of my doubt , Alhamdulillah . Allah is the most powerful , all knowing , all wise and he is much above all ur allegations.

    if u have an open mind , if u get time - just think of this


    QURAN CONTAINS THINGS THAT WILL LEAD A MAN TO RIGHTEOUSNESS , DO GOOD THINGS AND WILL MAKE HIM STAY AWAY FROM EVIL.

    Since it is a book , we can see it by our eyes and feel it. So definitely someone would have written it .

    WHAT GOOD WILL THE AUTHOR GET BY LEADING THE MANKIND TO RIGHTEOUSNESS ??
    WHAT WAS THE NEED FOR THE AUTHOR OR AUTHORS (Lets assume there was no prophet Muhammed PBUH- May Allah forgive me ) and it was written by a group of people of good intellect , based on facts learned from the Greeks and Indians ( And during AD 700 , i hope they didnt have internet or fast Boeings to be in touch and exchange ideas ) WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT ??

    WHAT GOOD WILL THEY GET FROM IT ?

    THE AUTHOR/AUTHORS COULD HAVE JUST ENJOYED THE LIFE - BY DISREGARDING ALL THE RULES , LIVING IN TOTAL FREEDOM ??

    If u think your brain is so infallible and full of wisdom , Think Again. !

    I wont visit this thread again as my doubts are cleared , Alhamdulillah and Shaitaan and his allies will try to lead me and others astray.


    LAST WORD : YOU WILL NEVER GET YOUR ANSWER , SO BE REALLY CURIOUS . May Allah show u the real path (IF HE WILLS )

    Asthagfirullah for all pagan words of mine , please pray for me my dear sisters and brothers

    MAY ALLAH SAVE OUR DEEN FROM ALL EVIL AND LEAD ALL OF US TO VICTORY
    MAY SHAITAAN AND HIS FOLLOWERS BE DOOMED FOREVER

    Aamin

    Assalamu Alikum Wa Rahmathullahi wabarakathu :)

    Leave a comment:


  • kqaleel
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    He created man from a drop of sperm and yet he is an open challenger! And He created livestock. There is warmth for you in them, and various uses and some you eat. And there is beauty in them for you in the evening when you bring them home and in the morning when you drive them out to graze. They carry your loads to lands you would never reach except with great difficulty. Your Lord is All-Gentle, Most Merciful. And horses, mules and donkeys both to ride and for adornment. And He creates other things you do not know. The Way should lead to Allah, but there are those who deviate from it. If He had wished He could have guided every one of you. It is He Who sends down water from the sky. From it you drink and from it come the shrubs among which you graze your herds. And by it He makes crops grow for you and olives and dates and grapes and fruit of every kind. There is certainly a Sign in that for people who reflect. He has made night and day subservient to you, and the sun and moon and stars, all subject to His command. There are certainly Signs in that for people who use their intellect. And also the things of varying colors He has created for you in the earth. There is certainly a Sign in that for people who pay heed. It is He Who made the sea subservient to you so that you can eat fresh flesh from it and bring out from it ornaments to wear. And you see the ships cleaving through it so that you can seek His bounty, and so that hopefully you will show thanks. He cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so it would not move under you, and rivers and pathways so that hopefully you would be guided, and landmarks. And they are guided by the stars. Is He Who creates like him who does not create? So will you not pay heed? If you tried to number Allah's blessings, you could never count them. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surat an-Nahl: 4-18)

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
    We will put it this way , a student was asked to learn things from a wrong text book and was failed. = UNFAIR

    The student was shown the right book and wrong book and he chose to learn from the wrong book( knowing what he is doing is wrong ) and he gets punished = FAIR DEAL
    Why would the teacher even offer the wrong book? And for the analogy to be accurate, the student would have to think that the wrong book was probably the right book. (I don't think you'll find any unbelievers who think god is real and the scriptures are right but still disbelieve. What about the ones that believe wholeheartedly, but in a different god) Still seems pretty unfair.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    So when the Quran repeatedly says that nothing can change what Allah has forseen and decreed, is it wrong?
    Pick up a book on Usul ul Fiqh and read the chapter about the 'Aam and Khaas. That example of yours and many others which you choose either out of ignorance or out of sheer adversity to Islam and then claim 'Look Contradiction' will be answered in the space of one page.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    The saying of the Prophet (PBUH) that Dua' can change Qadr and the supplication of one of the Greatest Companions (RA) attest to the fact that even a person doomed to Hell can have his place changed. So really there isn't anything unfair anywhere.
    So when the Quran repeatedly says that nothing can change what Allah has forseen and decreed, is it wrong?
    Also, it must be the case that Allah foresaw the prayer changing his mind and changing destiny, so it will have been written as such anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • kqaleel
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    The saying of the Prophet (PBUH) that Dua' can change Qadr and the supplication of one of the Greatest Companions (RA) attest to the fact that even a person doomed to Hell can have his place changed. So really there isn't anything unfair anywhere.
    We will put it this way , a student was asked to learn things from a wrong text book and was failed. = UNFAIR

    The student was shown the right book and wrong book and he chose to learn from the wrong book( knowing what he is doing is wrong ) and he gets punished = FAIR DEAL

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    The saying of the Prophet (PBUH) that Dua' can change Qadr and the supplication of one of the Greatest Companions (RA) attest to the fact that even a person doomed to Hell can have his place changed. So really there isn't anything unfair anywhere.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
    If Allah could create all this world from nothing ,he may be able to change ones fate !! Who knows other than Allah. And really Allah knows the best

    Not He may He can. God is not bound by anything. The belief that God can't change something He has written is robbing Him of His Power to do anything. God dictates standards. Standards do not dictate God. If He makes a Standard He is Free and all Powerful to change it Whenever He wants.

    That is why He is God.

    Leave a comment:


  • kqaleel
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Perhaps studying Islam first and then asking questions would befit all on this thread. Reading what orientalists have written and think considering yourself to know everything leads to nuisances like this.
    If Allah could create all this world from nothing ,he may be able to change ones fate !! Who knows other than Allah. And really Allah knows the best

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Perhaps studying Islam first and then asking questions would befit all on this thread. Reading what orientalists have written and think considering yourself to know everything leads to nuisances like this.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZeeshanParvez
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    حدثنا معاذ بن هشام قال : حدثنا أبي ، عن أبي حكيمة ، عن أبي عثمان النهدي ، أن عمر بن الخطاب قال وهو يطوف بالبيت ويبكي : اللهم إن كنت كتبت علي شقوة أو ذنبا فامحه ، فإنك تمحو ما تشاء وتثبت . وعندك أم الكتاب ، فاجعله سعادة ومغفرة .

    Umaar ibn Khttab used to say while he was doing Twaaf of the House and crying: Oh God If you written upon me misfortune or sins then efface them for verily You efface what you will and keep what You will and with you is the the Mother of the Book. So make it good fortune and forgiveness."

    Imam Tabari has placed a reference to this under the heading

    "And others say in reference to this Verse that God can change all of that which He wills and keep all he Wills (including the Mother of the Book)."

    Leave a comment:

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