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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • #16
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by reason12 View Post
    Allah decides what the mother decides. Besides, the mother doesn't claim to be the Most Merciful.
    that doesn't address what I asked you

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    • #17
      Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

      Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
      that doesn't address what I asked you
      I think that the mother is succumbing to what Allah wants, which is true even from your perspective. I have no other opinion.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Originally posted by reason12 View Post
        I think that the mother is succumbing to what Allah wants, which is true even from your perspective. I have no other opinion.
        That's incorrect and it isn't my perspective.

        I await your answer

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

          Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
          I wonder what you think of the mother who is told her child will be born with severe disability and decides to terminate the pregnancy?
          This is a very difficult question and one never wishes something like this on another person, nor can one fully comprehend this until they experience it.
          The mother may very well be punished for this act. but are you asking whether the mother is being merciful by preventing the life of the child in a state of disability. She does not have the power to make that decision, that rests with Allah SWT alone. The child with severe disability is obviously a test for her. such a difficult question but a good question

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          • #20
            Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

            Originally posted by UFM View Post
            This is a very difficult question and one never wishes something like this on another person, nor can one fully comprehend this until they experience it.
            The mother may very well be punished for this act. but are you asking whether the mother is being merciful by preventing the life of the child in a state of disability. She does not have the power to make that decision, that rests with Allah SWT alone. The child with severe disability is obviously a test for her. such a difficult question but a good question
            Akhie my intention with the question was not some of what you say. It was in direct response to reason12.
            I could go on and explain myself to you but I would like to get an answer of reson12 first.

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            • #21
              Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

              Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
              Akhie my intention with the question was not some of what you say. It was in direct response to reason12.
              I could go on and explain myself to you but I would like to get an answer of reson12 first.
              :up:

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                So reason12 is saying that the reason people do evil is actually Allah doing it.If you dont believe in Allah in the first place,how can you even blame Allah for all these injustices.And if u do believe Allah is responsible for all those evils,ur sense of the knowledge of islam and personal responsibility is warped,Not to also mention basic common sense and justice(since u have in another thread been arguing on whether rape is wrong or not,when in Islam it clearly is a punishable offence).So i guess ur thought process are more merciful than Allah's commands.lol.Peace
                Peace & assalamalaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

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                • #23
                  Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                  Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
                  That's incorrect and it isn't my perspective.

                  I await your answer
                  That is necessarily true. Are you claiming that the mother does not succumb to Allah's will?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                    Originally posted by Jassim Islam View Post
                    So reason12 is saying that the reason people do evil is actually Allah doing it.If you dont believe in Allah in the first place,how can you even blame Allah for all these injustices.And if u do believe Allah is responsible for all those evils,ur sense of the knowledge of islam and personal responsibility is warped,Not to also mention basic common sense and justice(since u have in another thread been arguing on whether rape is wrong or not,when in Islam it clearly is a punishable offence).So i guess ur thought process are more merciful than Allah's commands.lol.Peace
                    All my comments are based on an implicit 'if' (if God exists).

                    since u have in another thread been arguing on whether rape is wrong or not

                    Again, strawman.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                      Originally posted by UFM View Post
                      We say Allah knows best because mans knowledge is limited and one cannot comprehend the full reason for why Allah SWT decrees anything or sets these tests and in such a manner.
                      And as always Allah knows best
                      I could not bring myself to accept this kind of reasoning. If the actions of Allah seem contradictory, causing unnecessary suffering, etc, and there is no reasonable explanation for it, "Allah knows best" is just a cop out. It just seems like a device used to stop believers questioning religion. Would you accept that kind of answer in any other situation?

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                      • #26
                        Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                        Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                        I could not bring myself to accept this kind of reasoning. If the actions of Allah seem contradictory, causing unnecessary suffering, etc, and there is no reasonable explanation for it, "Allah knows best" is just a cop out. It just seems like a device used to stop believers questioning religion. Would you accept that kind of answer in any other situation?
                        Your diverting from what you originally asked, there is no contradiction in Allahs actions, I gave you a reasonable explanation, which you don't like nor accept, and it is not a cop out. The most questions come from the believers, and they are given proper answers. Saying Allah knows best is just added on the end as a mark of respect as well.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                          Originally posted by UFM View Post
                          Not everyone deserves to go to paradise, you can't agree and say that an individual such as Hitler who was responsible for so many millions of people dying deserves to go to paradise,
                          And as always Allah knows best
                          But Hitler may well be in Paradise! If he truly repented and accepted Allah, he would have been saved. All the evil of his life would have been forgotten. And yet, the person who lived a perfect life, only helping others and never causing harm would go to hell for the "crime" of not being a Muslim. Can you really reconcile such a ridiculous concept with the idea of a just god? Of course you can't, that's why you need the mantra of "Allah knows best".

                          Originally posted by UFM View Post
                          Natural disasters are seen as a punishment from Allah for the wicked and also a merciful death for the righteous.
                          I can't see how a rational person can reconcile these two statements. Natural disasters are both a punishment AND a blessing? Think about it. Allah is all powerful, all merciful and all just. He can do anything, so he can devise a way of punishing the wicked without also punishing the righteous (unless natural disasters are just that, random natural events with no purpose - but that's another subject). The argument that the righteous are actually being rewarded as they get to paradise quicker is a non sequitur. Surely a long life of good deeds, helping others and praising Allah is preferable to him? Otherwise, why bother with life and just send everyone straight to paradise. Allah does not need us to praise him during our lives as we will be praising him for eternity in paradise.
                          Of course, Allah knows best!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                            Originally posted by UFM View Post
                            Your diverting from what you originally asked, there is no contradiction in Allahs actions, I gave you a reasonable explanation, which you don't like nor accept, and it is not a cop out. The most questions come from the believers, and they are given proper answers. Saying Allah knows best is just added on the end as a mark of respect as well.
                            I'm not digressing. Your answer to the seemingly intractable question of unnecessary suffering was "Allah knows best". I don't think it was a reasonable explanation. It was a lot of conjecture and speculation as to why people think that Allah may be doing things that seemingly make no sense. The speculations themselves don't seem reasonable either. Why would he torment and kill a child to test a relative? To say that he must have good reason is not enough. There is NO good reason for such actions.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                              Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                              But Hitler may well be in Paradise! If he truly repented and accepted Allah, he would have been saved. All the evil of his life would have been forgotten. And yet, the person who lived a perfect life, only helping others and never causing harm would go to hell for the "crime" of not being a Muslim. Can you really reconcile such a ridiculous concept with the idea of a just god? Of course you can't, that's why you need the mantra of "Allah knows best".

                              I can't see how a rational person can reconcile these two statements. Natural disasters are both a punishment AND a blessing? Think about it. Allah is all powerful, all merciful and all just. He can do anything, so he can devise a way of punishing the wicked without also punishing the righteous (unless natural disasters are just that, random natural events with no purpose - but that's another subject). The argument that the righteous are actually being rewarded as they get to paradise quicker is a non sequitur. Surely a long life of good deeds, helping others and praising Allah is preferable to him? Otherwise, why bother with life and just send everyone straight to paradise. Allah does not need us to praise him during our lives as we will be praising him for eternity in paradise.
                              Of course, Allah knows best!
                              I think the issue lies in your limited understanding of Islam and it's concepts, whereas Muslims studying their whole lives have difficulty understanding their own religion, you claim to understand it better. No one can judge or determine whether a person will go to hell or heaven other than Allah, so your claim of Hitler supposedly accepting Islam, which mind you never happened, is silly and therefore your whole statement becomes erroneous. And even a devout Muslim doing good deeds and praying is not guaranteed heaven without the mercy of Allah SWT, and again no one can say where he will end up other than Allah.

                              As for my example on natural disasters, again you do not understand. A natural disaster is seen as a punishment for the wicked because as soon they die there torment will begin for eternity, whereas those righteous people in the midst of the wicked who perish in the natural disaster, will not be in torment but with the mercy of Allah saved from an eternal punishment.

                              I think you need to do more research on Islam before you start attacking it and your maker.

                              And Allah knows best

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                                Originally posted by neelu View Post
                                Yes, clearly there's plenty you've missed.

                                First of all look up the life of Ayub (as). Secondly the children who are put through suffering and die young, they have an eternity of pleasure and when they are asked in Jannah how much time did they spend on earth they will say it was mere moments and they do not remember it being a time of suffering because that is how short the duration of this life is in comparison to the hereafter. Think for example of the boys who were killed during the time of Musa (as)- how many lifetimes have passed since they left this earth the life they'd led here would've seemed like the blink of an eye to them, it's all over with and their suffering has ended.

                                Thirdly sometimes we are tried by ways of others which means that in some situations we are not tried in this life with difficulties of our own but also the difficulties of others. This can mean a child being born with some disease or something it's not just a hardship for that child but also puts the family to the test and also the community surrounding that child as to whether they are accepting of the child or whether they shun him or her and will be held to account for it and they wont be dealt with unjustly.

                                Fourthly piety and prayer is not like purchasing milk from the supermarket that you say i bought piety merchandise so if my family go through this struggle it means we've been short changed or given defective merchandise it really doesn't work like that.
                                None of this addresses the question of why an all powerful, all merciful and all just god would deliberately cause suffering and death to millions of innocent children in order to test other people. He does not need to. He could devise a thousand ways to test people that don't involve such unnecessary suffering.
                                Here's a thought. Why not create the test in a dream or hallucination? As it would be 100% real to the testee, the result would be just as conclusive and millions of innocent children would not have to die in agony. I'm not saying I'm smarter than Allah, or anything, but that idea took me about 5 seconds. He's had 1400 years.

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