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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by serio View Post
    Not everything can be explained logically. Religion is not about science or some equation that you can derived from some computation and analysis. Somethings you need your heart to feel it, and thats the beauty of religion. You don't need proof, you dont need facts, you just feel it in your heart. So a man of science like yourself would never understand people like us, who follow our hearts, that deeper feeling in us that understands all this, not matter how illogical it might seem to you. And vice versa. If you want to question and analyse things perhaps read another book or refute some scientist claims or newtons theory or things like that.

    Whats your obsession with trying to proof the Quran is flawed (which its not by the way)? Nobody asked you to follow it if you dont wish to. Thats the core of Islam in fact. Theres no compulsion in religion. You dont like it..fine, thats your choice. But stop questioning people who follows it. We didnt ask you to stop thinking everything logically, did we?
    I agree with you. Art, literature, music, the great outdoors, all stir something intangible and on a purely personal level mean more to me than logic and science. But I do not need to invoke the supernatural or suspend disbelief. Nor do I insist that people who do not like Modigliani, de Bernieres or Mussorgski are somehow inferior and will be made to suffer for it, or hope for a world which only contains the things I approve of. I wouldn't expect special consideration on the grounds of my tastes in the arts.

    My "obsession" derives from the attempts to make the Quran out to be a scientifically miraculous book of testable predictions or a basis for a workable, modern legal system (which it patently isn't).

    As I have said before, religion is a matter of faith and belief. It needs to exist without proof, as a matter of the heart. It also needs to be a personal thing, not something imposed on society or individuals, both in acceptance and in the details.

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    • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

      Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
      As I have said before, religion is a matter of faith and belief. It needs to exist without proof, as a matter of the heart. It also needs to be a personal thing, not something imposed on society or individuals, both in acceptance and in the details.
      "Imposed on society"
      Nobody is imposing anything. You are free to decide. If you think the Quran is imposing something and you dont like it then you can always not follow it. Nobody is stopping you. Even Allah is not stopping you. Are you worried that you will be making a mistake if you decide not to follow it? Are you afraid that you will be punished in the after life? Well that is for you to decide.

      Just like a job..you dont like the job you are doing, you can always leave. Hate your boss? You can leave and find another job. Nobody is forcing you to stay at one place and work there for the rest of your life. The point here is..you have a choice. Just like religion. You have a choice. Just because a company practices certain rules doesnt mean it has to satisfy everyone. Those who are happy with it can stay, those who are not can leave and those looking for a job can also choose to apply or look for another job. Simple.

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      • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Originally posted by serio View Post
        "Imposed on society"
        Nobody is imposing anything. You are free to decide. If you think the Quran is imposing something and you dont like it then you can always not follow it. Nobody is stopping you. Even Allah is not stopping you. Are you worried that you will be making a mistake if you decide not to follow it? Are you afraid that you will be punished in the after life? Well that is for you to decide.

        Just like a job..you dont like the job you are doing, you can always leave. Hate your boss? You can leave and find another job. Nobody is forcing you to stay at one place and work there for the rest of your life. The point here is..you have a choice. Just like religion. You have a choice. Just because a company practices certain rules doesnt mean it has to satisfy everyone. Those who are happy with it can stay, those who are not can leave and those looking for a job can also choose to apply or look for another job. Simple.
        I'm not even going to start on the whole issue of apostasy or living in a country where the the constitution or legal system is based on the Quran & Hadith, or the Organisation of the Islamic Conference continually pressing the UN for resolutions against criticism of Islam.

        That's a whole new can o'worms.

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        • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

          Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
          ?..Organisation of the Islamic Conference continually pressing the UN for resolutions against criticism of Islam.
          I find that hilarious! Has any resolution been passed? When we commit a crime we are called terrorist, but others are just called criminals. When we do something wrong we are called extremist but when others do it they are referred to by their own name/groups name. When Israel use chemical warfare against Palestines its just their right to defend their country but when an Islamic country use it its called weapon of mass destruction, and they be sending UN officials to 'observe' the country and disarm all their weapons or face the consequences of being attack by US and its allies.

          France doesnt allow muslims to wear hijab..isn't that imposing on society? If you go to india you can't slaughter a cow..isnt that imposing on society? And im just scratching the surface here. So why just pick on Islam? If you want to talk about imposing on society every country does it but ours gets more publicity cos every one is out to kill Islam..we get that.

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          • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

            Originally posted by serio View Post
            I find that hilarious! Has any resolution been passed? When we commit a crime we are called terrorist, but others are just called criminals. When we do something wrong we are called extremist but when others do it they are referred to by their own name/groups name. When Israel use chemical warfare against Palestines its just their right to defend their country but when an Islamic country use it its called weapon of mass destruction, and they be sending UN officials to 'observe' the country and disarm all their weapons or face the consequences of being attack by US and its allies.

            France doesnt allow muslims to wear hijab..isn't that imposing on society? If you go to india you can't slaughter a cow..isnt that imposing on society? And im just scratching the surface here. So why just pick on Islam? If you want to talk about imposing on society every country does it but ours gets more publicity cos every one is out to kill Islam..we get that.
            It's not the outcome, it's the intention that is significant.

            I absolutely agree with you that any country or organisation which commits human rights/Geneva Convention abuses should be brought to book. No exceptions (that includes Israel). However, that has nothing to do with the question of compulsion in religion.

            If France had just banned the hijab, it would have been wrong, but they didn't. The law outlaws covering the face in public (it does not apply when in private cars), including masks, balaclavas and motorcycle helmets (except when riding a bike).
            Passing laws on the basis of religious sensibilities is wrong (eg, Irish abortion laws), as is any law prohibiting the practice of any religion (unless it causes harm or suffering).
            This is an Islamic forum so Islam is the subject. I don't discuss Islam on Christian fora. Plus, compulsion is somewhat more relevant to Islam. I don't remember any bishops endorsing death for apostates (well, not for many centuries).

            Very few people are out to "kill Islam" specifically (although there are many who would like to see the end of all religions.) Certainly far fewer than the Muslims who publicly avow the end of "the West", etc, in violent terms.
            Now, I am far too sensible to think that these people represent anything but a small, crackpot element on both sides. How about you?

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