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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    to really curious

    I am cleared of my doubt , Alhamdulillah . Allah is the most powerful , all knowing , all wise and he is much above all ur allegations.

    if u have an open mind , if u get time - just think of this


    QURAN CONTAINS THINGS THAT WILL LEAD A MAN TO RIGHTEOUSNESS , DO GOOD THINGS AND WILL MAKE HIM STAY AWAY FROM EVIL.

    Since it is a book , we can see it by our eyes and feel it. So definitely someone would have written it .

    WHAT GOOD WILL THE AUTHOR GET BY LEADING THE MANKIND TO RIGHTEOUSNESS ??
    WHAT WAS THE NEED FOR THE AUTHOR OR AUTHORS (Lets assume there was no prophet Muhammed PBUH- May Allah forgive me ) and it was written by a group of people of good intellect , based on facts learned from the Greeks and Indians ( And during AD 700 , i hope they didnt have internet or fast Boeings to be in touch and exchange ideas ) WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT ??

    WHAT GOOD WILL THEY GET FROM IT ?

    THE AUTHOR/AUTHORS COULD HAVE JUST ENJOYED THE LIFE - BY DISREGARDING ALL THE RULES , LIVING IN TOTAL FREEDOM ??

    If u think your brain is so infallible and full of wisdom , Think Again. !

    I wont visit this thread again as my doubts are cleared , Alhamdulillah and Shaitaan and his allies will try to lead me and others astray.


    LAST WORD : YOU WILL NEVER GET YOUR ANSWER , SO BE REALLY CURIOUS . May Allah show u the real path (IF HE WILLS )

    Asthagfirullah for all pagan words of mine , please pray for me my dear sisters and brothers

    MAY ALLAH SAVE OUR DEEN FROM ALL EVIL AND LEAD ALL OF US TO VICTORY
    MAY SHAITAAN AND HIS FOLLOWERS BE DOOMED FOREVER

    Aamin

    Assalamu Alikum Wa Rahmathullahi wabarakathu :)

    Comment


    • Concept of God: Pre-destination?

      Ali (ra) said something along the lines that whatever comes your way be it good or bad, accepting that it is from Allah is qadr. over analyzing and trying to understand it further will only lead one to go astray

      As for disbelievers claiming that Allah has decided their fate to make them from among the disbelievers 50,000 years ago, then that is in Allah's knowledge as to who among them disbelievers will be end up dieing as a disbeliever.

      How do you know that He has not kept guidance for you? it is you who is denying him but saying he has deprived you from guidance. if you accept Him as your lord then that proves He did not decide your fate to end up as disbeliever and it will be also prove that he gave you free will by which you have chosen accept him as god.

      yet if you deny to recognise him then you decided to deny him out of your own choice and free will as you did not know whether he had kept guidance for you or not.

      so rather than being optimistic you chose a path of a pessimist and deny to recognise him out of your own free will
      Last edited by truepath; 15-11-13, 04:42 PM.
      لا أريد مِنْكُمْ جَزَاء وَلا شُكُورًا

      Comment


      • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
        QURAN CONTAINS THINGS THAT WILL LEAD A MAN TO RIGHTEOUSNESS , DO GOOD THINGS AND WILL MAKE HIM STAY AWAY FROM EVIL.

        WHAT GOOD WILL THE AUTHOR GET BY LEADING THE MANKIND TO RIGHTEOUSNESS ??

        WHAT GOOD WILL THEY GET FROM IT ?
        If you need a book to get you to do good things and avoid evil, fair enough. I do that because it feels right, I do not need the threat of punishment or the incentive of reward.

        The Quran, like all other similar books, was written as a social control document. Belief in gods was the rule in those days, so that was the frame of reference used.
        The threat of hell and the reward of paradise were methods for controlling the population by the ruling classes, or those aspiring to power. Any ruler at the time needed divine authority (this was even the case until 18th century Europe!) Having a god who knew everything you did and said and who would punish you for it was like having a 24hr thought police. The elaborate rituals and requirements were traditional in all religions, they added weight and gravitas. It also helped justify the brutal and arbitrary nature of life. The god-fearing peasants who suffered on this earth would be rewarded in paradise, while those who oppressed them and seemed to get away scott free would be punished for eternity. Simple wishful thinking.


        BTW, What are you hoping for victory over? Are you at war with someone?

        Comment


        • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

          Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
          If you need a book to get you to do good things and avoid evil, fair enough. I do that because it feels right, I do not need the threat of punishment or the incentive of reward.

          The Quran, like all other similar books, was written as a social control document. Belief in gods was the rule in those days, so that was the frame of reference used.
          The threat of hell and the reward of paradise were methods for controlling the population by the ruling classes, or those aspiring to power. Any ruler at the time needed divine authority (this was even the case until 18th century Europe!) Having a god who knew everything you did and said and who would punish you for it was like having a 24hr thought police. The elaborate rituals and requirements were traditional in all religions, they added weight and gravitas. It also helped justify the brutal and arbitrary nature of life. The god-fearing peasants who suffered on this earth would be rewarded in paradise, while those who oppressed them and seemed to get away scott free would be punished for eternity. Simple wishful thinking.

          BTW, What are you hoping for victory over? Are you at war with someone?
          Also, have you noticed that the Quran cannot be just read and understood by the common people. It needs to be interpreted by "scholars" who are equipped with the "necessary tools". This is common with all religious books as it keeps power in the hands of the Elite (similarly, owning a copy of the Bible in English was punishable by death until the 16th century. You had to have the "necessary tools" (Latin ie. an expensive education)).

          Comment


          • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

            Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
            Also, have you noticed that the Quran cannot be just read and understood by the common people. It needs to be interpreted by "scholars" who are equipped with the "necessary tools". This is common with all religious books as it keeps power in the hands of the Elite (similarly, owning a copy of the Bible in English was punishable by death until the 16th century. You had to have the "necessary tools" (Latin ie. an expensive education)).
            This post can just be added to the list of posts you've made that prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

            "Elites", that made me lol.

            Comment


            • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

              Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
              Pick up a book on Usul ul Fiqh and read the chapter about the 'Aam and Khaas. That example of yours and many others which you choose either out of ignorance or out of sheer adversity to Islam and then claim 'Look Contradiction' will be answered in the space of one page.
              "Some Muslims claim there is no need for Usul al-Fiqh, thinking one can directly go to the text of the Qur‟an and Sunnah and derive laws. Such a claim really illustrates ignorance in understanding Islam. It is impossible to derive laws without being equipped with the necessary tools. These tools enable us to understand the text of the Qur‟an and Sunnah, and without understanding the text; one would not be able to extract laws."

              "without being aware of the rules of Arabic grammar for interpreting the text of Qur‟an and Sunnah, one would not be able to differentiate whether the command in the Ayah or Hadith for a certain action is Haram (forbidden) or Makruh"

              "Since rulings are derived based on Usul al-Fiqh, a variation in Usul al-Fiqh may result in different rulings. This is one of the reasons that there might exist more than one ruling on some issues."

              "It is a miracle from Allah that the texts of the Qur‟an and Sunnah have the ability to express numerous rulings from a single Ayah and Hadith; whereas, the ability to understand many meanings from a single text cannot be found in any other legal text in the world!" (Just to be clear here, proper legal systems go to great lengths to ensure that this can not happen, as it is an invitation to partisan interpretation).
              Understanding Usul al-Fiqh - Abu/Beirawi

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              • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                Originally posted by kh4N View Post
                This post can just be added to the list of posts you've made that prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

                "Elites", that made me lol.
                Couldn't have said it better!
                Watch those eyes

                Comment


                • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                  Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                  The simple fact that you have to go through such convoluted semantic gymnastics to get (not very) close to the desired meaning must be proof that this was not written by an omniscient god but by medieval man with a loose grasp of physiology and reproduction, writing in the vernacular of the time. One version makes perfect sense, the other makes no sense. If he was telling Muhammad about reproduction, why not say that he created us from "sperm" originating from the "testes" which joins with a woman's "egg" from between the backbone and the ribs (see, it would work there). The words in " " would be actual definitive words with no ambiguity as to their meaning (words which are absent in the Quran). If this is not possible in classical Arabic, he should have used a language in which it is possible.
                  It is a shame you are not really curious but just here to spew out your ignorance and hatred. The fact that fellow chums even turned their backs on you says a lot, but you are a person exuding hubrisness. The idea that the Quraan is consistent is unfathomable to you, your mind is already made up and you will see religion through those tainted lenses. 'Reason' and 'science' is just a mask.

                  025.021 - And those who look not for a meeting with Us say: Why are angels not sent down unto us and (Why) do we not see our Lord! Assuredly they think too highly of themselves and are scornful with great pride.
                  025.022 - On the day when they behold the angels, on that day there will be no good tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                    As per zeeshan's post "And when you see those who engage in [offensive] discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people"
                    ..i think thats the best way to deal with dumba$$ really curious...oopss sorry dude..Qadh again.

                    So just leave him with his thoughts and all knowing self..there is no point in cotinuing our discussion with him.

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                    • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                      Allah wrote our fate because he sees the future with or without his influence.
                      Last edited by Mohamed Mifxal; 16-11-13, 07:06 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                        Originally posted by indexer View Post
                        It is a shame you are not really curious but just here to spew out your ignorance and hatred.
                        Hatred? Really? I don't hate anyone. I certainly don't think that three quarters of the world's population are inferior to me and wish on them an eternity of torment. I merely maintain that what you believe in is a delusion and try to show that. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that they hate you. I think you may be projecting here. Also, I think you may be confusing hubris with confidence (I have shown that I am quite happy to admit what I don't know and when I am shown to be wrong. More people should try it).
                        Ignorant? Certainly in some areas. I don't claim knowledge of the perfect, all pervading truth (it doesn't exist). Instead of replying with accusations, insults and quotes from scripture, how about using facts, evidence and logic? We'd all be better off.

                        I am not here for approval, merely to challenge the unsubstantiated claims of the Quran (don't worry, I do this with all brands of religion, I'm not singling out Islam) so I'm not sure who these "chums" are.

                        Th idea that the Quran is consistent is unfathomable to me. This is based on the evidence. Your view that it is is based on it being perfect = circular logic.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                          We are a witness against ourselves. If Allah hasn't gave us life here first, on the day of judgement, everyone that is going to hell would have said that had we been given life we would have done good etc so God is allowing us to be a witness against ourselves and amongst others. Our body itself will testify against us.. So there is no denying in the hereafter.
                          "Why Do We Fill Our Hearts With Everything But Allah And Expect Not To Fall Apart"

                          Comment


                          • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                            Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                            Couldn't have said it better!
                            You could! You could actually explain why it proves that and show where I went wrong.

                            Just saying "You are wrong!" doesn't mean anything. Critical analysis is the basis of so much of our knowledge. We achieve nothing by replying to arguments with "lol".

                            You will notice that my arguments, whether you like them or not, are given a logical base, with evidence if available. They may be utterly wrong. If they are, it should be easy for y'all to refute them with logic and evidence. However, the replies mostly consist of lols, quotes from the Quran & Hadith or suggestions that I study Islam more.

                            Come on, defend your position!

                            Comment


                            • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                              Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                              You could! You could actually explain why it proves that and show where I went wrong.

                              Just saying "You are wrong!" doesn't mean anything. Critical analysis is the basis of so much of our knowledge. We achieve nothing by replying to arguments with "lol".

                              You will notice that my arguments, whether you like them or not, are given a logical base, with evidence if available. They may be utterly wrong. If they are, it should be easy for y'all to refute them with logic and evidence. However, the replies mostly consist of lols, quotes from the Quran & Hadith or suggestions that I study Islam more.

                              Come on, defend your position!
                              Not everything can be explained logically. Religion is not about science or some equation that you can derived from some computation and analysis. Somethings you need your heart to feel it, and thats the beauty of religion. You don't need proof, you dont need facts, you just feel it in your heart. So a man of science like yourself would never understand people like us, who follow our hearts, that deeper feeling in us that understands all this, not matter how illogical it might seem to you. And vice versa. If you want to question and analyse things perhaps read another book or refute some scientist claims or newtons theory or things like that.

                              Whats your obsession with trying to proof the Quran is flawed (which its not by the way)? Nobody asked you to follow it if you dont wish to. Thats the core of Islam in fact. Theres no compulsion in religion. You dont like it..fine, thats your choice. But stop questioning people who follows it. We didnt ask you to stop thinking everything logically, did we?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                                Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                                You could! You could actually explain why it proves that and show where I went wrong.

                                Just saying "You are wrong!" doesn't mean anything. Critical analysis is the basis of so much of our knowledge. We achieve nothing by replying to arguments with "lol".

                                You will notice that my arguments, whether you like them or not, are given a logical base, with evidence if available. They may be utterly wrong. If they are, it should be easy for y'all to refute them with logic and evidence. However, the replies mostly consist of lols, quotes from the Quran & Hadith or suggestions that I study Islam more.

                                Come on, defend your position!
                                Your arguments are based on logic and evidence? lol? Would you like me to quote some of your "arguments" based on emotions or would you rather rely on your memory?

                                Comment

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