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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
    yes , i am doing research on it . i just dont get the logic of it


    What is this Qadr , many say i am having all this problem due to lack of iman and belief in qadr. I find it ridiculous- the concept of Qadr. Allah has pre determined everything, he knows who will be in heaven and hell. All had been pre written, Then what is the logic in this so called TESTING. Isnt it kind of playing a FIXED MATCH ?? God is being cruel towards all the non muslims by making them not to believe and leading them to hell !!
    Good job. That is exactly what it is. Playing a fixed match. Except the human being is not "playing" anything. Only Allah is. There is no test. There is only a game. The Qur'aan says that life is not a game, but let's face it. From the perspective of Islam, life is nothing but a game.

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    • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

      Reason Curious, I don't think any of the verses you post have contradictions.

      Comment


      • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Originally posted by reason12 View Post
        Reason Curious, I don't think any of the verses you post have contradictions.
        Apart from Sura 53 where I was wrong (the version I was recalling did not have the qualifiers for Him/He, my mistake) they all show either contradictions or inaccuracies. At the very least, their ambiguity shows that the Quran could be improved, which in itself contradicts the Quran.

        Comment


        • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

          Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
          And what is death for u really curious ?
          The end of life. The brain switches off & the body stops working. A bit like turning off a computer, the software won't work without the hardware. Do you remember what it was like before you were born? That's what it's like after you die (as far as the evidence goes, this is the most likely outcome).

          Comment


          • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

            Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
            But you forgot one thing. Allah has decided everything that will happen to me. He has decreed it, seen it and written it down, 50,000 years before he created the earth. I am only doing what he wants me to do. I am accepting his will, nothing more, nothing less.
            Lol! So you are saying you are a robot now? Whatever you type in here was what He wanted you to type? You need help, thats the final conclusion I can make about you.
            He didn't decide, but you are too blinded to know that actually. And Im not going to waste my time to explain to you why cos you will still see things in your own twisted, crooked way. That is quite obvious from all your replies here

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            • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

              Originally posted by serio View Post
              Lol! So you are saying you are a robot now? Whatever you type in here was what He wanted you to type? You need help, thats the final conclusion I can make about you.
              He didn't decide, but you are too blinded to know that actually. And Im not going to waste my time to explain to you why cos you will still see things in your own twisted, crooked way. That is quite obvious from all your replies here
              ""Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: " 9:51
              You disagree with this?

              Comment


              • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                Right, so Abu Qatada believes so, and thus it is the end of discourse ?
                We used to have scholars who believed the earth is flat, are we supposed to adhere to their position too ? I guess you should also pay heed of the scientists who used to believe tobacco was okay or the ones that are negating the complicity of humanity's polluting of the earth.

                Anyway, it was collated by Al Bukhari. The collectors of hadeeth simply collated what they heard and graded them in levels of authenticity. It was scholars that came after that who took the knowledge from these books, thoroughly studied them, joined the dots and clarified these positions hence mufassiroon like Ibn Kathir who stated that it is referring to meteors, contrary to Abu Qatada.

                Now, you are clearly fond of Abu Qatada (or maybe moreso of the missionary sites you are copy/pasting from), so here is my question to you. Why did the verse use misbaa7 and not najm ? When the Quraan wants to refer to 'stars' it will use najm, WHY did it not use it in this verse ?

                "nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever."
                Again, why are you conflating the two issues ? Allah commands the prophet to do X, the prophet orders X, people obey the prophetic order of X and thus adhere to the divine command. Allah commands the prohibition of alcohol, the prophet follows through the command. It's utterly absurd that a messenger who is divinely guided/inspired is 'not' to be followed/obeyed. Take his message but discard everything else. If you're that cynical then why obey either ?

                One verse says he cannot have offspring, one says he can. Rhetorical or not. Remember that the Quran is supposed to be perfect and without need of improvement.
                You are creating an issues where they don't exist. Both verses are negating/challenging the claimants albeit in different ways. I have had my fair share of 'anti islam propaganda' and this is probably amongst the worst (along with 'obey the messenger'). You clearly have little grasp of language devices and how they are deployed.

                This sounds like equivocation. The length of a day is given as two vastly different values. Both of which are wrong.
                No ReallyCurious, you are throwing around words without fully understanding what you are talking about. The day of judgement will be equivalent to 50k years, that has nothing to do with a day with Allah. The two are completely different issues. Just because both use 'days' it doesn't mean you can conflate the two.


                They may be describing different states of being/existence, but they are all wrong. Man is not created from any one thing from that list. I have always existed. We are all just rearrangements of existing matter. I was never a sperm. The embryo is only formed on the combining of genetic material from a sperm and an egg. Neither was I ever a blot clot in my mothers womb. Biology 101.
                Of course, man isn't made from water, nor does he come from the earth. And no you were not a clot in your mother's womb nor did your your existence come into being through sperm or anything of that like. And yes, you have always 'existed', even though you have no absolutely no recollection of what superseded you. Circular reasoning anyone ?

                It relates night and day to the sun and moon travelling in their orbits. It makes no mention of the actual cause of night and day. The sun does not have an orbit relative to the earth and moon. It is simply wrong. This is a prime example of trying to make reality fit the narrative.
                Where are you getting this from ? Where does it say that ? All it says is Allah created day/night and then goes onto to state the sun has an orbit and so does the moon, end of, anything else is your attempt to find problems where they don't exist. Re-read pickhall's translation and take all of the grammar into account whilst you're at it. Does the moon have an orbit ? Does the sun have an orbit ? A simply a yes or no will suffice. I should point out that the moon is the stabiliser of the earth's orbit.

                Now, the question is why is Allah talking about the orbit of the moon/sun and not the earth ? Because people used to worship the moon/sun so Allah is simply stating that they are nothing but creation, they are subservient and are signs of Allah.

                The prostate is an exocrine gland that secretes an alkaline fluid which neutralises the acidic secretions of the vagina to increase survivability of sperm. Sperm from the testes does not pass through the prostate. The prostate is situated below the bladder. Apart from the testes, it is the lowest organ in the abdomen, nowhere near the ribs. More junior biology. Why does the Quran not use the word for testicles? It is because the male orgasm is a visceral sensation which is felt in the area of the mid-abdomen.
                Bearing in mind that the "miraculous Quran" challenge is that it cannot be improved by changing even one word, or some such, simply replacing "between the backbone and ribs" with "testes" or "seminal vescule" or "prostate" or any combination of the three, would vastly improve it by making it accurate.
                Right, so the 'region' from whence most of the work is done is around the prostrate area, that includes the secretion of the bulk of semenal fluid (around 60% of it from the prostrate gland) and the reminder from the testicles as well as the reflex action. You see, its not a blip but rather an 'area', a collaborative effort by various systems to 'get the job done'. Its not 'near' the ribs, but it is most certainly between the ribs and spine, no ? It doesn't matter what terms were or were not used, they are simply used to convey meanings and ideas, nothing more. To assert that someone should use X term because you do is extremely myopic and demonstrates a lack of appreciation of the diversity and plurality of language.

                As a footnote, when discussing whether the Quran makes sense or not, you cannot explain inaccuracies by saying "Allah causes/creates everything anyway so that explains it". This is circular logic.
                The notion that Allah creates/causes things is to attribute 'meaning' to the action, it explains the WHY not the HOW. We can discern the HOW so there is no need for the Quraan to dwell into it but the WHY is not apparent. Now, obviously lightening has a material explanation but the Quraan encourages us to see beyond the veils. The WHY for you is probability, the WHY for us is Allah. Ponder over this ReallyCurious.

                I will address the issue of predestination in due time, Inshaa Allah.

                Comment


                • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                  Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                  ""Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: " 9:51
                  You disagree with this?
                  "If good befalls thee it grives them but if a misfortune befalls thee they say we took indeed our precautions beforehand, and they turn away rejoicing" 9:50

                  So in this context the disbelievers are trying to say that they are the ones who has the power to control things while the believers are saying no..nothing will happen to us unless it what Allah has decreed for us, for He is our Protector. The disbelievers are saying this so that people turn to them and not turn to Allah to protect them.

                  It seems quite clear that you only will take bits and pieces of the Quran and quote certain things that we say where it fits you. You have not answered all my questions about what does suffering mean and whether if you can literally feel what others are feeling.
                  Why? Because you are all knowing and all intelligent so you can't accept when others are right.

                  Well if you are so smart and think that all this is a game from Allah, why don't you go and meet Him then and tell Him how you think all of this is unfair. You can't?? Really? Oh nooooo. So you not that all knowing then. So you can only sit behind your computer and complain about everything? Poor child.
                  That's because you are an a$$. Ooppss sorry..didn't mean that..it was Qadr. It was already written 50,000 years ago that Im going to say that to you today.
                  Oh wait..i feel another one coming. You are the biggest idiot I've ever met in my life. Sorry dude..it was Qadr again. I don't have control over what I said. I can see now why you think everything has been pre determined.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                    Originally posted by serio View Post
                    "If good befalls thee it grives them but if a misfortune befalls thee they say we took indeed our precautions beforehand, and they turn away rejoicing" 9:50

                    So in this context the disbelievers are trying to say that they are the ones who has the power to control things while the believers are saying no..nothing will happen to us unless it what Allah has decreed for us, for He is our Protector. The disbelievers are saying this so that people turn to them and not turn to Allah to protect them.

                    It seems quite clear that you only will take bits and pieces of the Quran and quote certain things that we say where it fits you. You have not answered all my questions about what does suffering mean and whether if you can literally feel what others are feeling.
                    Why? Because you are all knowing and all intelligent so you can't accept when others are right.

                    Well if you are so smart and think that all this is a game from Allah, why don't you go and meet Him then and tell Him how you think all of this is unfair. You can't?? Really? Oh nooooo. So you not that all knowing then. So you can only sit behind your computer and complain about everything? Poor child.
                    That's because you are an a$$. Ooppss sorry..didn't mean that..it was Qadr. It was already written 50,000 years ago that Im going to say that to you today.
                    Oh wait..i feel another one coming. You are the biggest idiot I've ever met in my life. Sorry dude..it was Qadr again. I don't have control over what I said. I can see now why you think everything has been pre determined.
                    I don't think that, It is what your sacred book says. I know it also says that unbelievers choose their own fate. That's the whole point! It's self-contradictory! But it can't be because it is the perfect word of god. Therefore, in your mind, there is no contradiction. However, to anyone not blinded by faith and dogma, it is utterly clear.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                      Originally posted by indexer View Post
                      Right, so Abu Qatada believes so, and thus it is the end of discourse ?
                      We used to have scholars who believed the earth is flat, are we supposed to adhere to their position too ? I guess you should also pay heed of the scientists who used to believe tobacco was okay or the ones that are negating the complicity of humanity's polluting of the earth.

                      Anyway, it was collated by Al Bukhari. The collectors of hadeeth simply collated what they heard and graded them in levels of authenticity. It was scholars that came after that who took the knowledge from these books, thoroughly studied them, joined the dots and clarified these positions hence mufassiroon like Ibn Kathir who stated that it is referring to meteors, contrary to Abu Qatada.

                      Now, you are clearly fond of Abu Qatada (or maybe moreso of the missionary sites you are copy/pasting from), so here is my question to you. Why did the verse use misbaa7 and not najm ? When the Quraan wants to refer to 'stars' it will use najm, WHY did it not use it in this verse ?

                      Again, why are you conflating the two issues ? Allah commands the prophet to do X, the prophet orders X, people obey the prophetic order of X and thus adhere to the divine command. Allah commands the prohibition of alcohol, the prophet follows through the command. It's utterly absurd that a messenger who is divinely guided/inspired is 'not' to be followed/obeyed. Take his message but discard everything else. If you're that cynical then why obey either ?

                      You are creating an issues where they don't exist. Both verses are negating/challenging the claimants albeit in different ways. I have had my fair share of 'anti islam propaganda' and this is probably amongst the worst (along with 'obey the messenger'). You clearly have little grasp of language devices and how they are deployed.

                      No ReallyCurious, you are throwing around words without fully understanding what you are talking about. The day of judgement will be equivalent to 50k years, that has nothing to do with a day with Allah. The two are completely different issues. Just because both use 'days' it doesn't mean you can conflate the two.


                      Of course, man isn't made from water, nor does he come from the earth. And no you were not a clot in your mother's womb nor did your your existence come into being through sperm or anything of that like. And yes, you have always 'existed', even though you have no absolutely no recollection of what superseded you. Circular reasoning anyone ?

                      Where are you getting this from ? Where does it say that ? All it says is Allah created day/night and then goes onto to state the sun has an orbit and so does the moon, end of, anything else is your attempt to find problems where they don't exist. Re-read pickhall's translation and take all of the grammar into account whilst you're at it. Does the moon have an orbit ? Does the sun have an orbit ? A simply a yes or no will suffice. I should point out that the moon is the stabiliser of the earth's orbit.

                      Now, the question is why is Allah talking about the orbit of the moon/sun and not the earth ? Because people used to worship the moon/sun so Allah is simply stating that they are nothing but creation, they are subservient and are signs of Allah.

                      Right, so the 'region' from whence most of the work is done is around the prostrate area, that includes the secretion of the bulk of semenal fluid (around 60% of it from the prostrate gland) and the reminder from the testicles as well as the reflex action. You see, its not a blip but rather an 'area', a collaborative effort by various systems to 'get the job done'. Its not 'near' the ribs, but it is most certainly between the ribs and spine, no ? It doesn't matter what terms were or were not used, they are simply used to convey meanings and ideas, nothing more. To assert that someone should use X term because you do is extremely myopic and demonstrates a lack of appreciation of the diversity and plurality of language.

                      The notion that Allah creates/causes things is to attribute 'meaning' to the action, it explains the WHY not the HOW. We can discern the HOW so there is no need for the Quraan to dwell into it but the WHY is not apparent. Now, obviously lightening has a material explanation but the Quraan encourages us to see beyond the veils. The WHY for you is probability, the WHY for us is Allah. Ponder over this ReallyCurious.

                      I will address the issue of predestination in due time, Inshaa Allah.
                      The simple fact that you have to go through such convoluted semantic gymnastics to get (not very) close to the desired meaning must be proof that this was not written by an omniscient god but by medieval man with a loose grasp of physiology and reproduction, writing in the vernacular of the time. One version makes perfect sense, the other makes no sense. If he was telling Muhammad about reproduction, why not say that he created us from "sperm" originating from the "testes" which joins with a woman's "egg" from between the backbone and the ribs (see, it would work there). The words in " " would be actual definitive words with no ambiguity as to their meaning (words which are absent in the Quran). If this is not possible in classical Arabic, he should have used a language in which it is possible.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                        Can somebody please solve this issue of Qadr fastly ?? Its making me nuts !!

                        Comment


                        • Comment


                          • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                            Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
                            Can somebody please solve this issue of Qadr fastly ?? Its making me nuts !!
                            Why has Curious's logic gotten to you as well?!

                            Not everything is here to be solved. When you accept that the knowledge of God is greater than you you realize that what may seem contradictory in nature is not always such. Such examples can be found in this wordy life of ours as well when someone with greater knowledge presents us with something which appears contradictory to us.

                            Second, how do you expect humans to solve this problem when they can't solve the problem of why and how Laws of Newton breakdown at the the level of the atom. Just because they observations at the level of the atom appear to contradict what Newtons Laws say do we abandon the Newtonian Laws? No, because they work. Their contradiction at the theoretical level has no impact on their practical value.

                            Such is the case with Qadr. On the day of Judgement your questions will become clear to you. Additionally, if I were you I would advise you to not waste time with such people. Consider the following Verses

                            And when you see those who engage in [offensive] discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.


                            and

                            And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."


                            And regarding the presistance of the Kaffirs to disbelieve


                            And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to ascend,
                            They would say, "Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic."
                            Watch those eyes

                            Comment


                            • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                              Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                              Why has Curious's logic gotten to you as well?!

                              Not everything is here to be solved. When you accept that the knowledge of God is greater than you you realize that what may seem contradictory in nature is not always such. Such examples can be found in this wordy life of ours as well when someone with greater knowledge presents us with something which appears contradictory to us.

                              Second, how do you expect humans to solve this problem when they can't solve the problem of why and how Laws of Newton breakdown at the the level of the atom. Just because they observations at the level of the atom appear to contradict what Newtons Laws say do we abandon the Newtonian Laws? No, because they work. Their contradiction at the theoretical level has no impact on their practical value.

                              Such is the case with Qadr. On the day of Judgement your questions will become clear to you. Additionally, if I were you I would advise you to not waste time with such people. Consider the following Verses

                              And when you see those who engage in [offensive] discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.


                              and

                              And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."


                              And regarding the presistance of the Kaffirs to disbelieve


                              And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to ascend,
                              They would say, "Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic."

                              Dear Zeeshan , u just answer me this


                              IS ALLAH BEING UNFAIR TO THE NON BELIEVERS AND POLYTHEISTS BY PRE WRITING THEIR DESTINY THAT THEY WILL LIVE AND DIE AS SUCH , AND WILL BE PUNISHED ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT ??

                              Comment


                              • Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                                Originally posted by kqaleel View Post
                                Dear Zeeshan , u just answer me this


                                IS ALLAH BEING UNFAIR TO THE NON BELIEVERS AND POLYTHEISTS BY PRE WRITING THEIR DESTINY THAT THEY WILL LIVE AND DIE AS SUCH , AND WILL BE PUNISHED ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT ??
                                Allah swt does what He wills.

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