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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    What happens to children that die (of malaria)?
    1. A female mosquito harboring malaria feeds on human blood and transmits threadlike structures, called sporozoites, to the human.
    2. The sporozoites travel to the liver and multiply. They mature over two to four weeks without causing disease symptoms.
    3. The mature sporozoites, called merozoites, are released into the bloodstream, where they penetrate red blood cells and multiply and break down hemoglobin, which is essential for oxygen transport.
    4. The blood cells degrade, and the merozoites escape and infect other blood cells. This induces bouts of fever, chills, sweating, joint pain, vomiting, jaundice, hemoglobin in the urine, retinal damage, convulsions and anemia in the infected individual. The infected red cells can obstruct blood vessels in the brain (which is called cerebral malaria) or other vital organs, leading to coma and the death of the patient.
    5. A few parasites form a sexual stage, which can be sucked up by another mosquito taking a blood meal, beginning a new transmission cycle.
    6. Two sexually active parasites meet in the mosquito's gut and produce a new generation.

    A beautifully designed process, I'm sure you'll agree. And almost impossible to eliminate.

    Do you want to know what happened to children who died from smallpox as well? It's actually worse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    What happens to children that die (of malaria)?

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    Why did he create the malaria parasite? It serves absolutely no purpose other that creating suffering and reproducing.
    And before anyone thinks of saying "as a test", don't. Or the kitten gets it!

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by neelu View Post
    Speaking of the suffering and death of innocent children; is it not true that the vast majority of them die from either preventable conditions or from man made problems? The biggest killers of children in the world are things like diarrhea, malaria, war, malnutrition related conditions even though there is no shortage of food. Allah (swt) provided us with a world of abundant resources to take care of the needs of everyone within it- then certain people whether due to vested interests or greed decide to hoard a greater proportion of those provisions and deliberately starve/bomb/deprive another section of the world until the people are destitute and the children are neglected or starving. Ever think about whose fault that is and why no one is seeking to hold them accountable for their evil deeds?
    By the way, the largest infectious disease killers are TB and malaria. A child dies every 30 seconds from malaria. Not man made, but Allah made. Why did he create the malaria parasite? It serves absolutely no purpose other that creating suffering and reproducing. Man hs done and is doing much to eradicate it but because of the very clever way that Allah designed it, it is very difficult. In the meantime millions die. We have managed to eradicate smallpox. That was one of Allah's doozies! Again, the virus served no purpose but to reproduce and kill, in the most unpleasant way. However, going against Allah's design and using that much maligned science, we managed to do it. The single largest killer on the planet, destroyed for ever!!!
    Science 1 - Allah 0

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kh4N View Post
    Time to be more specific...

    Do you believe in an afterlife?
    No.
    The reason for this position is that there is absolutely no evidence for an afterlife. The afterlife presupposes the existence of a "soul". That etherial part of life that contains consciousness, our mind, the "person", that continues to live after the body dies.
    All research and evidence shows that the mind, consciousness, etc is a function of the brain. There has never been an proven example of a mind that existed without a brain. When the brain is altered or damaged, through injury, surgery, drugs, etc, the mind, consciousness, personality, etc changes. If these can be reversed, the changes to the mind may reverse. Advances in brain scanning technology allow us to "see" thoughts and measure output of the brain. As a body dies and a brain degenerates, the output reduces and finally stops. Every example of people who claim to be able to contact the afterlife have, when tested, been proved to be fakes.

    If you do believe in an afterlife, on what evidence do you base this? (Remember, "because it says so in the Quran" is not evidence, it's circular logic. Neither is wishful thinking, "there must be a reward/punishment, it wouldn't be fair otherwise") You must have some rational basis for thinking that an afterlife is more likely than not.

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by neelu View Post
    Speaking of the suffering and death of innocent children; is it not true that the vast majority of them die from either preventable conditions or from man made problems? The biggest killers of children in the world are things like diarrhea, malaria, war, malnutrition related conditions even though there is no shortage of food. Allah (swt) provided us with a world of abundant resources to take care of the needs of everyone within it- then certain people whether due to vested interests or greed decide to hoard a greater proportion of those provisions and deliberately starve/bomb/deprive another section of the world until the people are destitute and the children are neglected or starving. Ever think about whose fault that is and why no one is seeking to hold them accountable for their evil deeds?
    I was specifically referring to events such as natural disasters and epidemics that are attributed to god, so as to avoid this kind of whataboutery.

    And yes, I do.

    Leave a comment:


  • reason12
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by neelu View Post
    Speaking of the suffering and death of innocent children; is it not true that the vast majority of them die from either preventable conditions or from man made problems? The biggest killers of children in the world are things like diarrhea, malaria, war, malnutrition related conditions even though there is no shortage of food. Allah (swt) provided us with a world of abundant resources to take care of the needs of everyone within it- then certain people whether due to vested interests or greed decide to hoard a greater proportion of those provisions and deliberately starve/bomb/deprive another section of the world until the people are destitute and the children are neglected or starving. Ever think about whose fault that is and why no one is seeking to hold them accountable for their evil deeds?
    First of all, millions and millions of deaths have been caused by natural disasters. Second, innocent children being killed by war, malaria, earthquakes, murderers, droughts etc. are all one and the same. There is only one source that controls all these events : Allah

    Leave a comment:


  • neelu
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Speaking of the suffering and death of innocent children; is it not true that the vast majority of them die from either preventable conditions or from man made problems? The biggest killers of children in the world are things like diarrhea, malaria, war, malnutrition related conditions even though there is no shortage of food. Allah (swt) provided us with a world of abundant resources to take care of the needs of everyone within it- then certain people whether due to vested interests or greed decide to hoard a greater proportion of those provisions and deliberately starve/bomb/deprive another section of the world until the people are destitute and the children are neglected or starving. Ever think about whose fault that is and why no one is seeking to hold them accountable for their evil deeds?

    Leave a comment:


  • kh4N
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    No. A topical case in point is that of Jimmy Saville. He has been posthumously stripped of his knighthood as well as other memorial accolades being removed.
    Time to be more specific...

    Do you believe in an afterlife?

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kh4N View Post
    Let's avoid getting caught in semantics. Do you hold the view that a person is no longer held into account after his/her death?
    No. A topical case in point is that of Jimmy Saville. He has been posthumously stripped of his knighthood as well as other memorial accolades being removed.

    Leave a comment:


  • QMU
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by itanimulli View Post
    Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Q: If God (Allah) truly is a 'God' in a sense that he knows EVERYTHING regardless of what it is or the circumstances of it - Then why do we exist?

    God (Allah) claims to have given us 'free will'... But with this free will he knows what choices we will choose assuming that he is in fact the 'All Knowing'.. he also knows all of our intentions before we even start to think about the subject. So why do we exist?

    We are threatened with torment in Hell yet we have no real choice in what we do or say or what we believe in, because when it all comes down to it, God (Allah) has planned for it to happen. He has planned for us to either die a Muslim or a Mushrik, he has planned for us to believe in him or not to believe in him.

    Claiming we have 'free will' is as if you're saying 'Allah has given you the freedom to do as you wish' but why give us freedom when he has clear knowledge of what we will do with that 'freedom'. Before we existed he KNEW how we would die, so he planned it before hand.

    This doesn't sound fair at all. The question seems long but it needs answering.
    We are speaking now - you and myself. You have at this second got the chance to change and accept Allah(swt) and the prophet Mohammad(pbuh) and god willing have heaven.
    I have the chance to move away from islam now and as you have said be threatened with hell ...

    is that not free will?

    You and every other non muslim right now can accept the truth - you have choice and the chance now to repent - at this moment - its good your asking these questions(may Allah guide you), but in doing so - you know you can avoid the torment of hell but moving away from ignorance and accepting Islam.

    You know why Allah is so merciful - we are living life as a test and we have been given the answers through the quran and the saying of the prophet(pbuh).

    Leave a comment:


  • kh4N
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    Again, there is no "peak" of justice. It is either served or not. Something is either just or unjust, there are no degrees.

    What is your point? Is it relevant to the original discussion? If you are talking about the idea of punishing people after their death, that has nothing to do with justifying infanticide (although it would be nice if those responsible could be punished for ever! Sadly, all the evidence points against this.)
    Let's avoid getting caught in semantics. Do you hold the view that a person is no longer held into account after his/her death?

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kh4N View Post
    When I said 'pinnacle of justice' I was implying the peak of justice. After someone dies he or she can no longer be held into account.

    Do you hold this view?
    Again, there is no "peak" of justice. It is either served or not. Something is either just or unjust, there are no degrees.

    What is your point? Is it relevant to the original discussion? If you are talking about the idea of punishing people after their death, that has nothing to do with justifying infanticide (although it would be nice if those responsible could be punished for ever! Sadly, all the evidence points against this.)

    Leave a comment:


  • kh4N
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
    That is a non sequitur. What fixed relation does death have to justice? Also, how does justice have a "pinnacle"? I think you may be confusing justice with retribution or punishment. To answer what I think you are asking, from a believer's point of view; death is not the ultimate punishment, eternal hell would be. For a non-beliver, it may be, although many feel that capital punishment is never justified. In reality, a life of living with the consequences of their crime may be worse than a quick and painless death (a living hell if you like!) However, this would have nothing to do with the "pinnacle of justice". Something is either just or it is not. Justice is the fair and and equitable settlement of a dispute or conflict, or the fair and rational application of laws. Justice is done, whether it is between a child who has stolen a toy from another, of for a genocidal war criminal. The punishment will be different, but justice is the same.

    Anyway, the discussion wasn't about justice and punishment, it was about whether knowingly causing the suffering and death of innocent babies and infants can ever be justified (remember, these babies have committed no "crimes" co cannot be judged or punished). I say it can't. The people who speak on behalf of god say it can. What do you think?
    When I said 'pinnacle of justice' I was implying the peak of justice. After someone dies he or she can no longer be held into account.

    Do you hold this view?

    Leave a comment:


  • ReallyCurious
    replied
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Originally posted by kh4N View Post
    Can we agree that death is not the pinnacle of justice.
    That is a non sequitur. What fixed relation does death have to justice? Also, how does justice have a "pinnacle"? I think you may be confusing justice with retribution or punishment. To answer what I think you are asking, from a believer's point of view; death is not the ultimate punishment, eternal hell would be. For a non-beliver, it may be, although many feel that capital punishment is never justified. In reality, a life of living with the consequences of their crime may be worse than a quick and painless death (a living hell if you like!) However, this would have nothing to do with the "pinnacle of justice". Something is either just or it is not. Justice is the fair and and equitable settlement of a dispute or conflict, or the fair and rational application of laws. Justice is done, whether it is between a child who has stolen a toy from another, of for a genocidal war criminal. The punishment will be different, but justice is the same.

    Anyway, the discussion wasn't about justice and punishment, it was about whether knowingly causing the suffering and death of innocent babies and infants can ever be justified (remember, these babies have committed no "crimes" co cannot be judged or punished). I say it can't. The people who speak on behalf of god say it can. What do you think?

    Leave a comment:

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