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Concept of God: Pre-destination?

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  • Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    Q: If God (Allah) truly is a 'God' in a sense that he knows EVERYTHING regardless of what it is or the circumstances of it - Then why do we exist?

    God (Allah) claims to have given us 'free will'... But with this free will he knows what choices we will choose assuming that he is in fact the 'All Knowing'.. he also knows all of our intentions before we even start to think about the subject. So why do we exist?

    We are threatened with torment in Hell yet we have no real choice in what we do or say or what we believe in, because when it all comes down to it, God (Allah) has planned for it to happen. He has planned for us to either die a Muslim or a Mushrik, he has planned for us to believe in him or not to believe in him.

    Claiming we have 'free will' is as if you're saying 'Allah has given you the freedom to do as you wish' but why give us freedom when he has clear knowledge of what we will do with that 'freedom'. Before we existed he KNEW how we would die, so he planned it before hand.

    This doesn't sound fair at all. The question seems long but it needs answering.

  • #2
    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

    We do have free will. To put it in simplistic terms, Allah (swt) let us loose on this world and gave us guidance in the form of revelations and sent Prophets (as)- the choice to follow guidance or abandon it is ours to make. Allah (swt) knows beforehand what decision we will make merely because he has knowledge of the unseen, this does not mean that He (swt) makes the decision for us or prevents us from deciding for ourselves.... then we are held accountable for the choices we make and no one is dealt with unjustly. Does that clarify things for you or do you have any further questions?
    The Lyme Disease pandemic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5u73ME4sVU

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    • #3
      Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

      What do you mean by 'free will'?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Originally posted by itanimulli View Post
        Concept of God: Pre-destination?

        Q: If God (Allah) truly is a 'God' in a sense that he knows EVERYTHING regardless of what it is or the circumstances of it - Then why do we exist?

        God (Allah) claims to have given us 'free will'... But with this free will he knows what choices we will choose assuming that he is in fact the 'All Knowing'.. he also knows all of our intentions before we even start to think about the subject. So why do we exist?

        We are threatened with torment in Hell yet we have no real choice in what we do or say or what we believe in, because when it all comes down to it, God (Allah) has planned for it to happen. He has planned for us to either die a Muslim or a Mushrik, he has planned for us to believe in him or not to believe in him.

        Claiming we have 'free will' is as if you're saying 'Allah has given you the freedom to do as you wish' but why give us freedom when he has clear knowledge of what we will do with that 'freedom'. Before we existed he KNEW how we would die, so he planned it before hand.

        This doesn't sound fair at all. The question seems long but it needs answering.


        We exist to worship Allah according to his decree. Just because Allah SWT knows everything does not negate the reason for our existence. Yes he has given us free will and he already knows what we are going to do again does not negate the reason for our existence. Predestination is one of the articles of our faith.

        Have a look at some articles on the net to explain further.

        you think it's a long question it's an even longer answer


        http://www.onislam.net/english/readi...tination-.html
        http://alghazzali.org/resources/articles/predest.pdf
        http://www.islamawareness.net/Fate/fate_fatwa002.html

        Hope this helps you

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        • #5
          Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

          The concept of predestination raises another question that I have trouble resolving.
          Every day, thousands of innocent children die from disease, hereditary genetic disorder, accident and natural disaster. Many of the parents are devout Muslims who pray wholeheartedly for deliverance. Allah could stop these deaths if he so desired. These are not people who have exercised free will or made wrong choices, they are blameless infants. He has therefore decided that they all must die, many in terrible suffering, to suit his purpose. I cannot reconcile this with an all knowing, all powerful, all merciful and all just god who is worthy of our worship. Is there something that I have missed that justifies his actions. (We cannot use the reasoning that we can't question his actions, however unpalatable they seem. This opens up a very unpleasant can of worms)

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          • #6
            Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

            Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
            The concept of predestination raises another question that I have trouble resolving.
            Every day, thousands of innocent children die from disease, hereditary genetic disorder, accident and natural disaster. Many of the parents are devout Muslims who pray wholeheartedly for deliverance. Allah could stop these deaths if he so desired. These are not people who have exercised free will or made wrong choices, they are blameless infants. He has therefore decided that they all must die, many in terrible suffering, to suit his purpose. I cannot reconcile this with an all knowing, all powerful, all merciful and all just god who is worthy of our worship. Is there something that I have missed that justifies his actions. (We cannot use the reasoning that we can't question his actions, however unpalatable they seem. This opens up a very unpleasant can of worms)
            The explanation of such events given by Islam is that the life of this world is a test. Man is put in this test. For the purposes of this test, man is put through different types of situations. In good times, he is tested for his thankfulness and gratitude, while in hard times he is tested for his steadfastness, endurance and patience. Those who succeed in the test of this life shall be rewarded with the everlasting bliss of the life hereafter.

            It should also be kept in mind that in situations like the one that you have mentioned, it is, in fact, not the child but the parents and those around the child who are being tested. Moreover, the child shall in any case be infinitely compensated for the temporary suffering that it is put through for the purposes of the test. And Allah knows best

            I hope this answers your doubts

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            • #7
              Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

              Originally posted by UFM View Post
              The explanation of such events given by Islam is that the life of this world is a test. Man is put in this test. For the purposes of this test, man is put through different types of situations. In good times, he is tested for his thankfulness and gratitude, while in hard times he is tested for his steadfastness, endurance and patience. Those who succeed in the test of this life shall be rewarded with the everlasting bliss of the life hereafter.

              It should also be kept in mind that in situations like the one that you have mentioned, it is, in fact, not the child but the parents and those around the child who are being tested. Moreover, the child shall in any case be infinitely compensated for the temporary suffering that it is put through for the purposes of the test. And Allah knows best

              I hope this answers your doubts
              So the reason millions of children needlessly die in terrible suffering is to test the parents? Can't Allah think of another way of testing parents that doesn't involve the suffering and death of innocent children? If the entire family dies in a natural disaster, how are the parents being tested? If there is no need to go through life, why don't we all go to paradise before we have a chance to sin? Also, if Allah knows everything in our hearts, why needlessly cause suffering to find out what he already knows? And the "Observer Effect" will come into play, changing the behaviour of the observed. The person being tested might (quite reasonably) lose their faith as a result of the needless suffering of innocents, despite their heartfelt prayers, who were only caused to suffer in order to test that person. Even the best trained, most well behaved dog will bite if you keep kicking it without reason.

              "Allah knows best" is not a sufficient answer. How are these actions all merciful and all just?

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              • #8
                Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                So the reason millions of children needlessly die in terrible suffering is to test the parents? Can't Allah think of another way of testing parents that doesn't involve the suffering and death of innocent children? If the entire family dies in a natural disaster, how are the parents being tested? If there is no need to go through life, why don't we all go to paradise before we have a chance to sin? Also, if Allah knows everything in our hearts, why needlessly cause suffering to find out what he already knows? And the "Observer Effect" will come into play, changing the behaviour of the observed. The person being tested might (quite reasonably) lose their faith as a result of the needless suffering of innocents, despite their heartfelt prayers, who were only caused to suffer in order to test that person. Even the best trained, most well behaved dog will bite if you keep kicking it without reason.

                "Allah knows best" is not a sufficient answer. How are these actions all merciful and all just?
                We say Allah knows best because mans knowledge is limited and one cannot comprehend the full reason for why Allah SWT decrees anything or sets these tests and in such a manner. The test may not be just for the parents, it maybe for relatives, surrounding community, anyone involved with the deceased or suffering. There is a need to go through life. We are sent here to worship Allah. How then can one expect the blessings of Allah SWT when he is disobedient to his commands. Not everyone deserves to go to paradise, you can't agree and say that an individual such as Hitler who was responsible for so many millions of people dying deserves to go to paradise, even then we don't make those judgements. Why should the criminals be not punished. If a person being tested loses their faith in Allah SWT then it is pretty obvious that they failed that test. You have to look at the main reason as to why we are here on this earth, what is the purpose of your life. Now people may give you many answers but each answer they give will not be universal to every person on earth. We Muslims are told the very reason for existence is to obey and worship Allah SWT, this purpose can be applied to anyone on earth.

                Natural disasters are seen as a punishment from Allah SWT for the wicked and also a merciful death for the righteous. As majority of people killed in a natural disaster die immediately.

                Man is expected to sin, it's in his nature. But it is the act of repentance and asking for forgiveness that allows him to be cleansed of his sins by the mercy of Allah SWT. And not everyone repents, it is said that when the wicked will be judged and they will know they will be sent to hell, they will ask Allah Swt to send them back to earth so that they can do good, but Allah SWT says they will never do good and fall into their evil ways. So if they don't take heed of his message now they never will, and therefore don't deserve paradise.

                As for whether you think Allah SWT actions are not merciful and just, those that suffer and die in their youth, as I said before are infinitely rewarded. They are obviously in a better place in the long run, Whereas had they been like everyone else, perhaps they would have lived unjust lives, fallen into disbelief or many other reasons for being eternally punished.

                And as always Allah knows best
                Last edited by UFM; 31-10-13, 07:48 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                  Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                  . Is there something that I have missed that justifies his actions.
                  Yes, clearly there's plenty you've missed.

                  First of all look up the life of Ayub (as). Secondly the children who are put through suffering and die young, they have an eternity of pleasure and when they are asked in Jannah how much time did they spend on earth they will say it was mere moments and they do not remember it being a time of suffering because that is how short the duration of this life is in comparison to the hereafter. Think for example of the boys who were killed during the time of Musa (as)- how many lifetimes have passed since they left this earth the life they'd led here would've seemed like the blink of an eye to them, it's all over with and their suffering has ended.

                  Thirdly sometimes we are tried by ways of others which means that in some situations we are not tried in this life with difficulties of our own but also the difficulties of others. This can mean a child being born with some disease or something it's not just a hardship for that child but also puts the family to the test and also the community surrounding that child as to whether they are accepting of the child or whether they shun him or her and will be held to account for it and they wont be dealt with unjustly.

                  Fourthly piety and prayer is not like purchasing milk from the supermarket that you say i bought piety merchandise so if my family go through this struggle it means we've been short changed or given defective merchandise it really doesn't work like that.
                  The Lyme Disease pandemic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5u73ME4sVU

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                  • #10
                    Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                    Free will is a deceptive term.we have the free will or rather choice to do what we want,but its consequences are judged by Allah.Even if u r an athiest ,ur socalled freewill doesnt change much coz then u r governed by the legal system of a country.islamic legal laws never goes against human well bieng and justice and much of todays Western and common law have been derived from and continues to do so from islamic law.
                    Peace & assalamalaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                      Innocents usually die through the opression,inaction and injustices of men who caused them.Really curious have u involved ur self in charitable causes to alleviate their sufferings.Zakat(compulsory charity) and sadaqah(voluntary) are duties enjoined on ever Muslim.If every person on the planet accepted Islam,i guarentee u these ills would be near eliminated.i have yet to see a major athiest charitable organisation.Athiests usually tend to be self minded.
                      Peace & assalamalaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                        Originally posted by ReallyCurious View Post
                        So the reason millions of children needlessly die in terrible suffering is to test the parents? Can't Allah think of another way of testing parents that doesn't involve the suffering and death of innocent children? If the entire family dies in a natural disaster, how are the parents being tested? If there is no need to go through life, why don't we all go to paradise before we have a chance to sin? Also, if Allah knows everything in our hearts, why needlessly cause suffering to find out what he already knows? And the "Observer Effect" will come into play, changing the behaviour of the observed. The person being tested might (quite reasonably) lose their faith as a result of the needless suffering of innocents, despite their heartfelt prayers, who were only caused to suffer in order to test that person. Even the best trained, most well behaved dog will bite if you keep kicking it without reason.

                        "Allah knows best" is not a sufficient answer. How are these actions all merciful and all just?
                        These actions are not only supposed to be all-merciful. They are supposed to be the Most Merciful. Allah is supposed to be the "Most Merciful of those who show Mercy". You have a Being, who happily holds the title of being the "Most Merciful of those who show Mercy", and then needlessly kills children. He feeds His own creation bitter "fruit" from the tree of Zaqqum (foul pus from their wounds) and hot, boiling water. He lets them experience an unbearable amount of pain through burning sensations caused by fire, and then re-creates the skins so that the burning sensation may never go away. He never stops. Ever. Once you are there, you are there forever. Not for a thousand years. Not for a million. Not for a billion. Think of the largest number that you can think of. Mathematically, that number is 0% of eternity. The most important fact of all is that He has the power to prevent this.

                        But remember folks. Allah loves you and He is still the "Most Merciful of those who show Mercy". I really have a hard time figuring out how people don't see this blatant, semantic contradiction.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                          Oh, and don't forget! He planned all this before Adam was even created.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                            Originally posted by reason12 View Post
                            These actions are not only supposed to be all-merciful. They are supposed to be the Most Merciful. Allah is supposed to be the "Most Merciful of those who show Mercy". You have a Being, who happily holds the title of being the "Most Merciful of those who show Mercy", and then needlessly kills children. He feeds His own creation bitter "fruit" from the tree of Zaqqum (foul pus from their wounds) and hot, boiling water. He lets them experience an unbearable amount of pain through burning sensations caused by fire, and then re-creates the skins so that the burning sensation may never go away. He never stops. Ever. Once you are there, you are there forever. Not for a thousand years. Not for a million. Not for a billion. Think of the largest number that you can think of. Mathematically, that number is 0% of eternity. The most important fact of all is that He has the power to prevent this.

                            But remember folks. Allah loves you and He is still the "Most Merciful of those who show Mercy". I really have a hard time figuring out how people don't see this blatant, semantic contradiction.
                            I wonder what you think of the mother who is told her child will be born with severe disability and decides to terminate the pregnancy?

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                            • #15
                              Re: Concept of God: Pre-destination?

                              Originally posted by nonameakhi View Post
                              I wonder what you think of the mother who is told her child will be born with severe disability and decides to terminate the pregnancy?
                              Allah decides what the mother decides. Besides, the mother doesn't claim to be the Most Merciful.

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