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Women Voting in Islam

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  • #31
    Re: Women Voting in Islam

    Originally posted by gandalf View Post
    The ulema is said to represent the 'ijma' - or consensus of the muslim community. Another poster mentioned Shura (consultation). Both are democratic in nature - in the sense of letting the whole community have a say.

    Also the Ulema cannot lead the community in all matters. Its like saying Australia can be governed by the High Court. Political leaders are needed for a whole range of day-to-day duties that are essential for the smooth running of a community/society. Such leaders cannot be solely appointed by the Ulema if we are going to abide by the Islamic doctrine of Shura.

    Put simply, the voice of the people cannot be ignored - and therefore some form of democracy is required.
    you to your way and we to ours.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet :saw: said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Women Voting in Islam

      Originally posted by *asiya* View Post
      you to your way and we to ours.
      I am muslim, and believe democracy is islamic.

      How can you argue islam is against democracy when ijma and shura are specifically prescribed by the Quran?

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Women Voting in Islam

        Originally posted by gandalf View Post
        democracy is islamic.
        That depends on your definition of democracy.
        Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم , Sahih Muslim 16/146

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Women Voting in Islam

          I am muslim, and believe democracy is islamic.

          How can you argue islam is against democracy when ijma and shura are specifically prescribed by the Quran?
          As Brother Wadi said what exactly do you mean by democracy? I think as was said, consulting to choose a new leader and making a new law are 2 very different things.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Women Voting in Islam

            Originally posted by Ahmed ibn Adan View Post
            As Brother Wadi said what exactly do you mean by democracy? I think as was said, consulting to choose a new leader and making a new law are 2 very different things.
            Indeed, one definition of democracy is that governing is done by the people. The people are ultimately in charge at the end of the day, even if, for practical purposes, they don't have a full vote on every issue, but vote to elect the people to make some decisions on their behalf for a while.

            Clearly, asiya and others are against this idea because in theory, the laws made could contradict something written in scriptures, and there is no way to stop this if enough people are convinced about something, it will happen whether the scholars want it or not.

            People like asiya have a very low opinion of the will of people. Their opinions are basically useless because they are not learned scholars and so their views don't count.

            A democrat would call that a totalitarian view, and would think it very sinister.

            It's not easy to find a working compromise between these sides.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Women Voting in Islam

              Originally posted by Ahmed ibn Adan View Post
              As Brother Wadi said what exactly do you mean by democracy? I think as was said, consulting to choose a new leader and making a new law are 2 very different things.
              and that is the crux of the issue. Many muslims get unnecessarily hostile to the concept because they equate it with western corruption and decadence. Especially when democracy is preceded by the dirty "L" word - liberal.

              Yet, the basic idea of democracy is not elections or a particular system of government or gay rights - its giving 'the people' a say in how society runs. And the idea that muslim society must be a consultative one with the people, and that governing must be consensus driven - comes directly from the Quran.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Women Voting in Islam

                Originally posted by gandalf View Post
                and that is the crux of the issue. Many muslims get unnecessarily hostile to the concept because they equate it with western corruption and decadence. Especially when democracy is preceded by the dirty "L" word - liberal.

                Yet, the basic idea of democracy is not elections or a particular system of government or gay rights - its giving 'the people' a say in how society runs. And the idea that muslim society must be a consultative one with the people, and that governing must be consensus driven - comes directly from the Quran.
                where exactly?
                Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم , Sahih Muslim 16/146

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Women Voting in Islam

                  Originally posted by *asiya* View Post
                  as socital rule is already fully laid out already in islam, there is no need for political parties to bash out what they think is best for the country and to be changing the rules on every fashionable whim.
                  the idea that there is no need for a political body to take decisions, because every possible decision is already anticipated in Quran and Sunnah, is quaint

                  legislative bodies vote on the most diverse subjects - from the prices of agricultural goods to the salary level of public officials, the establishment plan of the departments, the annual State budget etc etc how can such decisions be taken without a vote ? how can even a Caliph be chosen without some kind of vote being taken (in case of no consensus being reached ?

                  how can even "scholars" be chosen without some kind of decision by a political authority ? how is it assumed that "scholars" will necessarily reach a consensus, from designating shurah Members to designating a Caliph to destituting him, without some kind of detailed decision-making system ?

                  the idea that a consensus will always be reached is naive, and not borne out by experience

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Women Voting in Islam

                    Originally posted by gandalf View Post
                    the Ulema cannot lead the community in all matters. Its like saying Australia can be governed by the High Court. Political leaders are needed for a whole range of day-to-day duties that are essential for the smooth running of a community/society.
                    in actual practice, any society has to organise a series of intermediate bodies where political and administrative decisions are taken. In case of doubt, the majority rule is an efficient way of avoiding stalemates and potentially disruptive disputes - if those intermediate bodies are elected by the people, this makes sure that they actually do represent those who will have to live by the decisions taken

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Women Voting in Islam

                      Originally posted by gandalf View Post
                      I am muslim, and believe democracy is islamic.

                      How can you argue islam is against democracy when ijma and shura are specifically prescribed by the Quran?
                      i didnt argue that islam is against democracy, democracy is what nom muslim countries run on and they are welcome to it, islam recognises boundaries and non muslim lands.

                      in islam we have our own have system, and even the jammah of the muslims is not made up from the rabble of the people, let alone ijma and shura given to them.

                      a democracy is any two idiots without any knowledge of the subject, without any verified good character or scruples voting in those who may also not be qualified to lead, who may also not be of good character or moral scruples of dubious alligences, and who are only in a position to be elected due to their families wealth and the abiliy to send them to so called "elite" schools and have people in positions of power put in a good word for them. even the likes of neo nazi nick griffin scraped in to politics because of his father being head of the freemason lodges of wales.

                      in islam a person who has no knowledge of the deen is not qualified to give his verdicts, nor to be consulted in matter of which he has no knowledge. and choosing a khalifah is one of the matters of which resonsability must be given to those who fear Allah and have proper understanding (not just knowledge) and application of the deen, because without that, the descision is left to the ignorant.

                      from there the khalifah will appoint ppl to administer the running of the country.
                      "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

                      The Prophet :saw: said:

                      "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

                      muslim

                      Narrated 'Abdullah:

                      The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


                      "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

                      By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

                      [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Women Voting in Islam

                        some people are unable to separate democracy and the current western implementation in their minds.

                        it's easier to describe a fantasy system without explaining how to set it up or prevent it from turning into dictatorship run by pseudo-religious mafia.

                        it makes no sense to ignore the fact that the world has changed and will continue to do so.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Women Voting in Islam

                          Originally posted by Modernist View Post
                          some people are unable to separate democracy and the current western implementation in their minds.

                          it's easier to describe a fantasy system without explaining how to set it up or prevent it from turning into dictatorship run by pseudo-religious mafia.

                          it makes no sense to ignore the fact that the world has changed and will continue to do so.
                          as your user name suggests, you dont accept that Allah ta ala has perfected islam, and you have your own ideas.

                          in order to understand how the system of administration of shariah works under islam you would need to study every aspect of islam, which comes back to why voting and shura is not for the ignorant.
                          "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

                          The Prophet :saw: said:

                          "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

                          muslim

                          Narrated 'Abdullah:

                          The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


                          "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

                          By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

                          [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Women Voting in Islam

                            Originally posted by *asiya* View Post
                            i didnt argue that islam is against democracy, democracy is what nom muslim countries run on and they are welcome to it, islam recognises boundaries and non muslim lands.

                            in islam we have our own have system, and even the jammah of the muslims is not made up from the rabble of the people, let alone ijma and shura given to them.
                            That makes no sense. If democracy is disallowed in muslim lands - which I think it what you are saying - then by definition that means islam is against democracy, right?

                            But its inaccurate anyway. The Quran specifically orders the prophet to consult with his people in matters of state in 3:159, while also prescribing a general culture of consultation within the community in 42:38. That is by definition democratic.

                            in islam a person who has no knowledge of the deen is not qualified to give his verdicts, nor to be consulted in matter of which he has no knowledge. and choosing a khalifah is one of the matters of which resonsability must be given to those who fear Allah and have proper understanding (not just knowledge)
                            Thats only one view. Many scholars argue that ijma (consensus) must involve the entire muslim community, not just the learned class. The lack of distinction in the Quranic verses just mentioned suggests they are right.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Women Voting in Islam

                              Originally posted by gandalf View Post
                              That makes no sense. If democracy is disallowed in muslim lands - which I think it what you are saying - then by definition that means islam is against democracy, right?

                              But its inaccurate anyway. The Quran specifically orders the prophet to consult with his people in matters of state in 3:159, while also prescribing a general culture of consultation within the community in 42:38. That is by definition democratic.



                              Thats only one view. Many scholars argue that ijma (consensus) must involve the entire muslim community, not just the learned class. The lack of distinction in the Quranic verses just mentioned suggests they are right.
                              wrong. islam is islam and democracy is democracy. we say we to our way and they to theirs.


                              surah 3:159 is regarding the sahabbah who are the scolars of the day, they are the ulema of the time, the rightly guided- they are those who are to be consulted.

                              next ayat 42:48 is explained in the tafsir of ibn kathir and again its consulting the ppl of knowledge the mujahiddin, explained thus

                              ﴿وَأَمْرُهُمْ شُورَى بَيْنَهُمْ﴾

                              (and who (conduct) their affairs by mutual consultation,) means, they do not make a decision without consulting one another on the matter so that they can help one another by sharing their ideas concerning issues such as wars and other matters. This is like the Ayah:

                              ﴿وَشَاوِرْهُمْ فِى الاٌّمْرِ﴾

                              (and consult them in the affairs) (3:159) tafsir ;

                              The Prophet used to consult with them concerning wars and other matters, so that they would feel confidant. When `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, was dying, after he had been stabbed, he entrusted the choice of the next Khalifah to six people who were to be consulted. They were `Uthman, `Ali, Talhah, Az-Zubayr, Sa`id and `Abdur-Rahman bin `Awf, may Allah be pleased with them all. Then all of the Companions, may Allah be pleased with them, agreed to appoint `Uthman as their leader.

                              end quote


                              you do not ask every ignorant lying cheating deviant who cannot even bring himself to make his salat, who they want to be in charge, because you will end up with what has been proven that every power grabbing dictator will be placed in leadership by his cronies.
                              Last edited by *asiya*; 26-10-13, 12:37 AM.
                              "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

                              The Prophet :saw: said:

                              "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

                              muslim

                              Narrated 'Abdullah:

                              The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


                              "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

                              By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

                              [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Women Voting in Islam

                                Originally posted by *asiya* View Post
                                as your user name suggests, you dont accept that Allah ta ala has perfected islam, and you have your own ideas.
                                your interpretation is wrong.

                                those who practice islam have to meet challenges caused by time and place.

                                there is no benefit in wearing desert clothing in northern latitudes. similarly there is no sense in pursuing political structures from a long gone world era. both are the unsustainable actions of those who blindly follow without understanding.

                                Comment

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