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Why do we not all begin life in Paradise, and continue to reside there eternally?

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  • #46
    I think we were created for a completely different worship than that which exists with the angels. We were always meant to end up on the earth because Allah knew all what would happen and how they'd eat the fruit before He even made them, just like He always knew exactly what shaytan will be and that many are following him to hell. This consequence is the baggage that comes with our condition of choosing free will (which unless I'm mistaken none other than us and jinn chose) but then it is free will worship that makes us different from angel worship. Free will worship must be a special thing because we were made even after the jinn (who are also free will) were destroyed (?). If jannah is for the pure then disobedience cant be left to go on in there, if disobedience cant happen = no more free will. Worship for humans was meant to be frought with struggle as demonstrated when given the easiest task of go wherever you want but dont go near that tree, couldn't do it. Jannah is a place of ease tho I dunno if any of this actually took place in jannah or somewhere else. Also, our lives, the earthly ones spent in toil, 80 years for example in our perception, then the grave, but on qiyama you find out it's like part of a day or something. Time is different with Allah though He knows what time he's bound us by in this life. Really interesting Q.
    Last edited by cho09082489; 14-08-20, 05:31 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
      I tried going through all the waffle but gave up.

      -_-
      Not Understanding

      It is probably because you don't understand the terms I used, Allahu Alam.

      As far as not understanding the terms, we have this same problem in Arabic - the terms (like Hawadith etc.) get too complicated for common people - thats why the proofs common people are required to know are simple like, "There is a creation, therefore there is a creator," in the manner of the Bedouin. You are not required to understand the above proof - its more for people who are thinking on that level to understand all that - you my brother are fine for you already accept the creator is necessary.

      Your not understanding the proof is similar to a fluent speaker of Arabic not understanding the grammar of their own language.

      One does not need to teach a fluent speaker the grammar of their own languge for they already know how to speak the language. They don't need to know the grammar - the grammar is unnecessarily complicated for them.

      A Simple Summary

      The proof is simply this:
      1. For Allah to necessarily exist A, B and C must be true.
      2. If A, B and C (any of them) are false, then this results in contradictions.
      3. Therefore A, B and C must all be true.
      4. Therefore Allah necessarily exists.
      Necessarily exist = impossible to not exist.
      Contradiction = something that is impossible.

      If you would like, you can ask me about the parts you don't understand and I will try explain them to you in simpler language insha'Allah.
      Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 14-08-20, 10:26 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
        We have one of either two possibilities.

        Ultimately you are who you are and you are thus the person who would have done those things if given the chance. This is the point that you are missing - its not that they did do it in such a scenario - its that they would do it. And Allah tells us that he never burdens a soul greater than it can bare. Thus he gives every soul the best chance for it to go to Jannah, but also tests it enough that this isn't straight forward or easy. In the end, you choose to believe or disbelieve.

        If you deny this, then the people in Paradise in such an example would never be the people of this world as you have said. But that implies you would never be in Paradise. What makes you who you are? Fundamentally you are what you choose to believe in different scenarios - that is what it boils down to.

        So if Allah put all of them in paradise either they are us or they are not us. If they are us then you say that the one who would if given a fair test in the world, would choose to believe in murder, pillaging etc. and disbelieve in Allah - you say that, that person should enter Paradise.
        Why does what one would do matter? If it doesn't happen, isn't that all we should be concerned with?

        If it does matter, then the issue of "why did Allah put evil in us in the first place?" comes up. Wouldn't some responsibility go on Him, because he put that in us in the first place, and is the cause of why the people who go to hell will?

        If they are not us, as you are making out, then quite simply you would never be in paradise. Other people who (essentially) would never sin even if given the chance would be in there. You do not have to worry about such a thing as it is already the case - we have the angels, many of whom are already there.
        I was speaking of the case where they are us, but different from how we are as of now, without the capacity for sin. If that means a "different version" of me would be there, then that would be fine, since the current version of me wouldn't exist.

        What's the point of our differentiation from angels? They get to start life in paradise, while we have to go through this life's tests - only to achieve the same destination. Yeah, we get some honor i.e. angels bowing down to us, being the crown of creation, but that doesn't seem significant. Going through the difficulties of life just for that?

        I have another question, but I'll wait till the current discussion is over/ it might need its own thread.
        "When you want to cry, laugh.
        If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

          Man has a kind of 'free will'. In reality it is not accurate to call it 'free will', it is more like 'free belief'. If you wish I could explain to you how I understand this, but it might get quite technical.
          I'd be interested in understanding this. Just let me know of any difficult terms used.

          Allah is not punishing you for the act itself. The act itself you cannot even choose (more on this if you ask me to explain free will). Allah is punishing you for that which you do choose - the belief that you can commit that sin. Such a belief is not an action. In fact it is not even a created or caused thing. Such a belief is chosen by you and that is what you are punished for.
          I did not know this. So if someone does a sin, for example stealing, does that necessarily mean that he believes it is permissible? What if he knows what he's doing is wrong, but still does it?

          You will only go where you choose.
          I guess that brightens things up a bit, but I don't understand why we have to go through so much still.
          "When you want to cry, laugh.
          If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

            Not Understanding

            It is probably because you don't understand the terms I used, Allahu Alam.

            As far as not understanding the terms, we have this same problem in Arabic - the terms (like Hawadith etc.) get too complicated for common people - thats why the proofs common people are required to know are simple like, "There is a creation, therefore there is a creator," in the manner of the Bedouin. You are not required to understand the above proof - its more for people who are thinking on that level to understand all that - you my brother are fine for you already accept the creator is necessary.

            Your not understanding the proof is similar to a fluent speaker of Arabic not understanding the grammar of their own language.

            One does not need to teach a fluent speaker the grammar of their own languge for they already know how to speak the language. They don't need to know the grammar - the grammar is unnecessarily complicated for them.

            A Simple Summary

            The proof is simply this:
            1. For Allah to necessarily exist A, B and C must be true.
            2. If A, B and C (any of them) are false, then this results in contradictions.
            3. Therefore A, B and C must all be true.
            4. Therefore Allah necessarily exists.
            Necessarily exist = impossible to not exist.
            Contradiction = something that is impossible.

            If you would like, you can ask me about the parts you don't understand and I will try explain them to you in simpler language insha'Allah.
            Are you under the impression that your waffle is some kind of advanced discourse?
            Last edited by Abu 'Abdullaah; 15-08-20, 02:40 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bolt View Post
              I'd like to start off this by saying this is the most fundamental doubt I have. If you can clear it, I'd have strong core beliefs overall, the rest would just be minor ones that can easily be dealt with/ignored without posing a threat to my faith. Do not take this to mean me attacking the religion or its principles, I sincerely desire a better understanding of my religion. This is probably going to be a lengthy post. I know that Allah is Most-Knowing, so I try to shrug it off, but it has continued to be an obstacle between me and my Lord.

              The purpose of our life on Earth is to pass the test of abstaining from evil, doing good (worship etc), so that we can enter heaven. Those who fail the test will live in Hell for eternity for their sins.

              Is not Allah responsible for our sins, because he is the one who put the potential for sin in us in the first place? Allah says in the Quran "Whomever Allah wills - He leaves astray; and whomever He wills - he puts him on a straight path" (6:39) and "And whoever Allah leaves astray - never will you find for him a way" (4:143). All the people who are going to hell have already been decided by Allah. They will not be able to change his plan. How is one even responsible for what he does, if Allah, the Supreme Creator, has already decided his fate? I've heard that people are still responsible because they have free will, and that they can choose what's good for them and go to heaven. However, for the people predestined to be dwellers of Hell, this is irrelevant, since they are bound by Allah's plan - which is, Hell.

              Why do we have to be tested in the first place anyway? Having a system of heaven and hell means there will be people who fail. Many. Most, in fact, according to the Quran: "but most of them do not believe" (26:190).

              The Quran repeatedly speaks of Allah's forgiveness. Allah is All-Good and All-Powerful, and he does not require our worship. Therefore, I cannot understand why everybody can't just start in paradise and live happily forever. The struggle on Earth, is, in my eyes, completely unnecessary, and is mostly why I find myself getting demotivated so often.

              Here is a reply I got from someone before (he did not reply to me after this).


              Mankind was created unjust and ignorant. Therefore, shouldn't responsibility be held by the Creator for their actions, since He created them such?

              I have three analogies here I'd like to make:
              1- I read the tafsir of (33:72) by ibn Kathir, and he explains that it is Adam (pbuh) who, in his dialogue with Allah, agrees to The Trust. Why is the entirety of humanity responsible for what Adam decided to agree to? If someone commits a crime, only they are held responsible for it - not their children [please don't take this as me slandering Adam (pbuh), that is not my intention].


              2- Qabil (Cain) killed Habil (Abel). There is a hadith that is agreed upon by The 6 Authentic Books unanimously (except Abu Dawood) that states "Any soul that is unjustly killed, then the first son of Adam will carry a burden of its shedding". In the same sense, shouldn't Allah also be somewhat responsible for our sins, because he created us that way?

              3- A profiteer who loots someone of their money is responsible for looting the person, even if the other person should have been knowledgeable about the item he was buying. So, why did Allah even offer The Trust? (Again, not accusing Allah).


              I just cannot seem to come to terms with the fact that Allah, who is Most Merciful, Most Forgiving, would make people go through so much pointless misery and pain, and still end up most likely in hell, when he could just make everyone start in Heaven and without evil.That way, everyone would be happy, and nothing would go wrong, and there would be no suffering.

              Also, why make us have to put so much effort? What's the point? The result is the same whether we go through the difficulties of this life and go to heaven, or start in heaven. Except, of course, most people will find their way into Hell.

              So far, I've talked to two brothers about this and they haven't been able to convince me of it. I have watched some lectures regarding the topic, but they only lightly touch upon it and their arguments/logic has not been convincing in the slightest either.

              I have had this doubt for about a year now, since I started thinking more about these things. I have just accepted this as the harsh and sad reality and moved on, but it does recur and take a major jab at my faith levels. It does not sit well in my head with the concept of Allah being Most-Merciful, Most-Beneficent. I really feel that if I can resolve this doubt, I'd be able to progress better.

              Thank you for reading. I hope someone out there can elucidate this matter for me.


              salam alaykum wa rahmat allah
              i wished you sent this message to me privatly so i could of responded earlier because i didnt check this post due to the title being a bit silly but today i finally decided to give it a read

              1 the people that are decreed to go to hell is due to their actions because allah is all knowing he allready knows what choice of actions they will take therefore they deserve it . and this life is the proof for it because they have absolute freedom of choice when it comes to their actions . as for allah guiding people it because they sought hes guidance in the first place so if you seek guidance from allah he wil lguide you if you seek misguidance from allah he will misguide you

              2 not everyone deserve the love of allah and hes rewards therefore we need a test to see wich ones pass and fail allah dosent need to make this test in the first place to know who will be guided and who will be misguided he could of just created us and sent those who will fail to hell and those who will pass to heaven however he made this life because he is just and to show us the proof that are we are the responsibles for our destinations due to our actions wich we have 100% freedom of choice to do them or not

              3 allah is the most just too and puting people who commit all sorts of atrocities from from rape and murder and pillaging with people who feed the poor heal the sick and do charity is not just
              do you agree to put an american soldier who raped a child infront of hes mother in guantanamo in heaven along with a muslim doctor who healed poor people free of charge ?

              4 Mankind was created unjust sowe must seek justice in islamand ignorantso we must seek knowledge in islam . just like you dont say allah created me jobless so he must provide for me and make food rain from the sky you do you best to look for a halal income we should be seriouse when it come to seeking knowledge and justice just like we are seriouse in attaining materialistic things we want

              5 there is alot of wrong understanding here : we are not responsible for adam's sin . what happened to adam was a practice for the real world where he need to know that the devil is hes enemy
              if you ask anyone sane would you want to cease to exist he will say no therefore existing in this world is a favour and a blessing from allah subhanahu wa talaa who made us from nothing into a complex being with abilities and faculties that helps us interact with the world it the fault of those who refuse to be bound by the rules of allah and choose the path that leads to hell fire

              6 here is an inferior example that might make it clear :just like when someone invent a helpfull device to humanity he get credits and thanks whenever people benefit from it someone who comes up with a harmfull act or device get the people discredits and curses whenever people get harm from it.allah gave you your body and mind along with free will and he ordered you to follow hes teachings when you choose to go against hes teaching and murder people there is no one to blame but yourself

              7 trusting a muslim doctor's advice about a cure for a certain ilness because he spent hes life studying medecin that is trust . trusting a random stranger that he claims to be a doctor with 0 proof that is stupidity

              8 i responded to this in my previouse points however here is the recap :allah is also the most just .this life is not only a test but a proof to us for our behaviour .there is no justice in putting an american soldier who raped a child infront of hes mother in a beautifull place like jannah along with a muslim doctor who spent hes life curing the poor for free

              9 not everyone deserve to be in heaven . even without living in this world allah is all knowing he knows if some people get the chance they will commit all sorts of atrocities while others they will follow hes orders no matter what so it unjust to reward all those people with jannah

              10 i allways tell people to private message mle about their doubts and i will continue to respond to you untill there is no doubts inshaeallah

              11 the issue you have is not with islam but it have to do with your ignorance with alot of islamic aspects from the attributes of god to matters of justice

              and allah knows best


              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                Are you under the impression that your waffle is some kind of advanced discourse?
                Like I said, if you have any questions on parts you don't understand due to my own ineptitude in explaining, I will more than happily explain for you.

                When my brother does not understand something I have written, it is my own fault. If you think that it is waffle, please point out which parts so I can clarify.

                May Allah bless both of us and bestow on both of us an increase in Taqwa.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Firstly, I apologise for replying late - I have been quite busy lately.

                  Originally posted by Bolt View Post

                  Why does what one would do matter? If it doesn't happen, isn't that all we should be concerned with?
                  That would be simply an incorrect understanding. I have already brought the hadith explaining the two people who intended to kill each other will be in hell, even if one is killed by the other (because they believe in the permissibility of taking the life of their innocent brother).

                  So what one would choose to believe simply does matter. People are fundamentally different based off only what they would choose to believe in different situations - that is what makes you different to me.

                  Nevertheless,

                  If you say, "let's ignore what one would choose to believe," then you say, "let us ignore different people,"

                  This is because the difference in what people would believe in different situations is what makes them different people in the first place.

                  If for sake of argument, I accept what you have said then I ask you a question now, Why should he even make you? Why is it even important that he makes different people, who would believe things differently in different situations? We have agreed that what people would believe doesn't matter - so why not then have people who would (and do) always believe? After all, it doesn't matter right? (such beings already exist - the angels and even the huri who are in Jannah - so if you desire this to be the case then it already is the case!).

                  In such a situation you would not exist. If the creator did not give any weight to what people would believe, then we observe a ceasing to need different people. Just make multiple of one person and give them paradise. Again, in such a situation, you would not exist.

                  Negating what people would believe means he can just make e.g. any arbitrary type of person and give them eternal pleasure. It doesn't matter what they would believe after all - only what they do believe.

                  As I have said before, you cannot have your cake and eat it, no matter how much you try.

                  If you say, "What people would believe doesn't matter, only what they actually do believe," then no need to create you. I made this point before. I fail to see any need in making different people in such a circumstance. So you wouldn't be in Paradise (you wouldn't even exist as what people would choose to believe doesn't matter so he would see no wisdom in making people who would choose to believe differently) - but if it makes you happy for such a situation to happen then be happy for we already have the angels, many of whom are already in Jannah.

                  If you say, "What people would choose to believe does matter, then why do you suggest such people, who would choose to disbelieve, even if given the fairest test for them which is neither too lax nor too difficult, deserve Jannah from the start and eternally so?"

                  You are trying to have your cake and eat it.

                  You want him to make different people (so what people would choose to believe should matter) but then give them all paradise instantly (so what people would choose to believe should not matter).

                  To summarise my points in this regards,

                  If what people would choose to believe does matter then why create the one who would choose to disbelieve in Paradise?

                  If what people would choose to believe does not matter, then why create any who would choose to believe differently in different situations in the first place? I.e. why create different people? No need for you, no need for me. He can just make any kind of person (with any set of potential of beliefs in any different situation) he wants. All that matters is what they do believe according to you, so I ask why make different people? Just make one person or multiple copies of that (and since would-be beliefs don't matter, that can be either a potential wali or a shaytan) and give them eternal bliss. (We already have the angels and huri that are in Jannah, so you should be happy that such a thing is already happening).

                  If it does matter, then the issue of "why did Allah put evil in us in the first place?" comes up. Wouldn't some responsibility go on Him, because he put that in us in the first place, and is the cause of why the people who go to hell will?
                  Did he put disbelief into them? Or did they choose it for themselves?

                  He created them and all were believers when they testified to him that they believe in him.

                  He has created them and they are that which then chose to disbelieve in him. Yes he has created people who would choose, of their own accord, to disbelieve. It is not up to him that they disbelieve, he gives them as fair a chance as possible. He suits the test to their strengths and weaknesses, not burdening a soul more than it can bear. All they have to do is believe, but they choose not to - that is their fault not his. That is fundamentally who they are - they choose to disbelieve. He also create others who choose to believe in a fair test suited to them.

                  Now if you accept that it does matter what people would believe, we have a new problem: You are saying that he could be held responsible for these people going to hell. This assumes that such people do not deserve hell (and also of course assumes Allah can be held responsible for anything, when in reality he is above the law, good and evil etc. as he defines them.)

                  But these people deserve hell.

                  If you accept that it does matter what people would believe in different circumstances, then you must accept that these people are fundamentally evil, so they deserve hell. What you should be asking at this point is, why doesn't he put them in hell from the start (which I have addressed).
                  Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 23-08-20, 06:26 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    The answer to your question is in the Quran:

                    so that Allah may distinguish the wicked from the good and place the wicked some of them upon others and heap them all together and put them into Hell. It is those who are the losers.

                    8:37

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Abdulbaqi Al-Kārim View Post
                      The answer to your question is in the Quran:

                      so that Allah may distinguish the wicked from the good and place the wicked some of them upon others and heap them all together and put them into Hell. It is those who are the losers.

                      8:37
                      I'm aware of this verse. It doesn't solve the question I had; but I have since stopped questioning the reasons behind religious matters.
                      "When you want to cry, laugh.
                      If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Bolt View Post

                        I'm aware of this verse. It doesn't solve the question I had; but I have since stopped questioning the reasons behind religious matters.
                        What it comes down to is that although your question assumes some moral right under which Allah is obligated to act in what you perceive to be your best interests, you can't justify why he has to create you specifically to fulfil that supposed moral right. If the goal is to put all of those beings in Jannah, why does he need to create you specifically?

                        If you protest that he must create you otherwise it is not 'fair' then you say that "what people do under different circumstances does have weight" and that he should put people in Jannah who would, if given any fair chance, rebel and commit corruption.

                        That is not 'fair', but you wish to ignore this by saying, "it doesn't matter what they would do only what they will do/actually have done,"

                        Tayyib. Noticed you would have contradicted yourself in reasoning - you want two opposites to be true - this is not a feature of rational thinking. Nevertheless, we will assume you want to go with what you said last.

                        So we are back to square one again as if, "it doesn't matter what they would do only what they have done," then why create you in particular? Why not fill Jannah with many copies of RasulAllah Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam? Since, "it doesn't matter what they do, only what they have done," there's no need to create different people who would do different things in different circumstances.

                        So no need to create you - in which case you would never experience Jannah for you wouldn't exist.



                        Either it does, "matter what they would do" or it does not "matter what they would do". If it does matter then your question becomes obnoxious as you are asking why Hitler doesn't get Jannah. If it doesn't matter what they would do, then no need for you my friend, Allah can just create a dedicated group and give them Jannah from the start, as he has done with the Houris etc.

                        If your question was framed a different way, e.g. "Why don't all those who would be righteous not start in Jannah, being free from the horrors and torture of this Dunya?" then I have already answered that by explaining that if you only punish based off of what they would do then iff they were made to think that this is an injustice, then they would say an injustice has been done to them, as it seems that randomly some have been put in Jannah and some have been put in Jahannam, and so Ahl al-Jahannam would complain about their treatment and perhaps Ahlul Jannah might question why Ahlul Jahannam have been created into that.

                        Moreover, there is the important topic of the nature of 'evil' and why Allah creates it that every scholar and student of knowledge in this field loves discussing.

                        Ultimately, you have the ability to choose to believe or disbelieve - you will only go in this after this Dunya to where you choose. Even those who are Fasiqun, open sinners, if they believe in the oneness of Allah and the Prophethood of RasulAllah, they will eventually attain Jannah - so whether you ultimately attain eternal bliss or not simply based off of accepting key creedal beliefs.

                        but I have since stopped questioning the reasons behind religious matters
                        I think I mentioned somewhere else that this distinction between religious and secular is a secular distinction. We should avoid it.

                        Your stopping of questioning these issues can be seen in two ways.
                        1. You do not comprehend the wisdom, but have firm belief that there is a wisdom behind this and all such matters. This is very mature and the lesson taught in Surah Kahf with the story of Khidr Alayhis Salam.
                        2. You do not think any such wisdom exists, you think Allah should have created you in Jannah but he didn't. You think that it is irrational - contradictory to reason - for him to have done what he did, and this saddens you, but you don't question it as you think a good response will not be given (and think any responses that have been given are flawed even if with some of them you cannot point out the flaw). This is two things - emotional, not rational, and more importantly it is Kibr.
                        Kibr is arrogance and arrogance is what led Shaytan to first bring up this dispute regarding free will, where he argued that he could not be blamed as Allah had decreed that he would do what he had done, so he blamed it on Allah. He thought then that Allah had done something irrational, as Allah is obligated - according to Shaytan - to act in his best interests and he thinks that Allah's creation and decreeing of his actions were not in his best interests and, he thought that he was being compelled by Allah. In other words, he thought he knew better than Allah.

                        That is what the second interpretation of your statement is. If you truly believe that then you necessarily belief you know better than Allah. That is arrogance, and the mindset of Shaytan.

                        Moreover, as can be demonstrated, such reasoning brought by such a person is flawed and has contradictions in it. It is an emotional mindset, not a rational one, but any emotional person can claim to be rational. For instance, an emotional person might lash out to what I have said and say something like, "Are you comparing me to Shaytan?!" etc. without understanding the full context of what I am saying, or arguably being able to tell me what is wrong from a rational viewpoint in comparing similar or equivalent beliefs.

                        What conforms to reason and rationality is not simply what you want to believe is true - it is simply what is the truth itself. The flat earther does not want to believe the Earth is round, so he denies it and says it is flat - bringing flawed mathematical calculations. The atheist does not want to believe in Allah and so brings an emotional and flawed argument e.g. russel's teapot etc. and claims he is using reason. Why? The flat earther and atheist both do not want to accept something that is the truth, so they will justify in their hearts any way for this to not be true. This is known as denialism - this is in affect the definition of Kufr (as the Kafir hides what he knows to be the truth deep down).

                        The example is given classically of Firaun. When the magicians saw Musa Alayhis Salam's staff become a snake, they fell down in Sajdah to Allah as Muslims. As for Firaun, he was arrogant and thought he knew better. He did not want to believe fundamentally that Musa Alayhis Salam was right, so he gave a weak justification, saying he had seen a trick.

                        In the end we see this time and time again, the emotional ones thinking they are using reason, when their 'reasoning' leads to contradictions. Ultimately, unless Allah wills, we will never be able to convince such people as they do not fundamentally want to believe what is true. This is why the christians on this forum can become emotional and reject what we say - they fundementally don't want to believe in their hearts and so won't.

                        (Another possibility of course is that such a person is simply not aware of the correct reasoning - as they have not considered that their thinking leads to contradictions etc. and they are fundamentally a rational person ('Akil) who will accept the truth if it is presented to them properly. To such a person, we expound, debate and answer the concerns through the use of reason, and this reason can even be independent from the texts. If he then rejects, then he is irrational and emotional, if it can be shown that his reasoning contains flaws which it certainly can.)

                        In summary, I hope and pray to Allah that you have only given up questioning the reason behind 'religious matters' as you believe with certainty that there is a wisdom behind it, but that you cannot understand it.

                        I wish you the best my brother.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          The thing is, we all have free will

                          Allah created us with free will

                          At the end of the day Allah gave us the capacity to chose sin or a good action. He created us in this fashion. Still nothing goes forward without His planning and permission.

                          He created us this way - having the potential to sin. Nothing can exist/be created without him.

                          Quran 36 verse 82:

                          Whenever He decides to create something He has only to say, "Exist," and it comes into existence.

                          Quran 36 verse 83:

                          All glory belongs to the One in whose hands is the control of all things. To Him you will all return.

                          He is still the Master of all and owns all

                          - including our decision making capacities, they are related to some parts in our brains.

                          Abu Malik at-Ash'ari reported:

                          The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Cleanliness is half of faith

                          and al-Hamdu Lillah (all praise and gratitude is for Allah alone) fills the scale, and Subhan Allah (Glory be to Allah)

                          and al-Hamdu Lillah fill up what is between the heavens and the earth, and prayer is a light,

                          and charity is proof (of one's faith)

                          and endurance is a brightness and the Holy Qur'an is a proof on your behalf or against you.

                          All men go out early in the morning and sell themselves, thereby setting themselves free or destroying themselves.



                          حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ مَنْصُورٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَبَّانُ بْنُ هِلاَلٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبَانٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، أَنَّ زَيْدًا، حَدَّثَهُ أَنَّ أَبَا سَلاَّمٍ حَدَّثَهُ عَنْ أَبِي مَالِكٍ الأَشْعَرِيِّ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ الطُّهُورُ شَطْرُ الإِيمَانِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلأُ الْمِيزَانَ ‏.‏ وَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَالْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ تَمْلآنِ - أَوْ تَمْلأُ - مَا بَيْنَ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَالصَّلاَةُ نُورٌ وَالصَّدَقَةُ بُرْهَانٌ وَالصَّبْرُ ضِيَاءٌ وَالْقُرْآنُ حُجَّةٌ لَكَ أَوْ عَلَيْكَ كُلُّ النَّاسِ يَغْدُو فَبَائِعٌ نَفْسَهُ فَمُعْتِقُهَا أَوْ مُوبِقُهَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

                          Reference : Sahih Muslim 223
                          In-book reference : Book 2, Hadith 1
                          USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 2, Hadith 432
                          (deprecated numbering scheme)

                          أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

                          Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


                          Please take a look at my blog : http://thinkingmuslima.blogspot.co.uk/

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                            What it comes down to is that although your question assumes some moral right under which Allah is obligated to act in what you perceive to be your best interests, you can't justify why he has to create you specifically to fulfil that supposed moral right. If the goal is to put all of those beings in Jannah, why does he need to create you specifically?

                            If you protest that he must create you otherwise it is not 'fair' then you say that "what people do under different circumstances does have weight" and that he should put people in Jannah who would, if given any fair chance, rebel and commit corruption.

                            That is not 'fair', but you wish to ignore this by saying, "it doesn't matter what they would do only what they will do/actually have done,"

                            Tayyib. Noticed you would have contradicted yourself in reasoning - you want two opposites to be true - this is not a feature of rational thinking. Nevertheless, we will assume you want to go with what you said last.

                            So we are back to square one again as if, "it doesn't matter what they would do only what they have done," then why create you in particular? Why not fill Jannah with many copies of RasulAllah Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam? Since, "it doesn't matter what they do, only what they have done," there's no need to create different people who would do different things in different circumstances.

                            So no need to create you - in which case you would never experience Jannah for you wouldn't exist.



                            Either it does, "matter what they would do" or it does not "matter what they would do". If it does matter then your question becomes obnoxious as you are asking why Hitler doesn't get Jannah. If it doesn't matter what they would do, then no need for you my friend, Allah can just create a dedicated group and give them Jannah from the start, as he has done with the Houris etc.

                            If your question was framed a different way, e.g. "Why don't all those who would be righteous not start in Jannah, being free from the horrors and torture of this Dunya?" then I have already answered that by explaining that if you only punish based off of what they would do then iff they were made to think that this is an injustice, then they would say an injustice has been done to them, as it seems that randomly some have been put in Jannah and some have been put in Jahannam, and so Ahl al-Jahannam would complain about their treatment and perhaps Ahlul Jannah might question why Ahlul Jahannam have been created into that.

                            Moreover, there is the important topic of the nature of 'evil' and why Allah creates it that every scholar and student of knowledge in this field loves discussing.

                            Ultimately, you have the ability to choose to believe or disbelieve - you will only go in this after this Dunya to where you choose. Even those who are Fasiqun, open sinners, if they believe in the oneness of Allah and the Prophethood of RasulAllah, they will eventually attain Jannah - so whether you ultimately attain eternal bliss or not simply based off of accepting key creedal beliefs.



                            I think I mentioned somewhere else that this distinction between religious and secular is a secular distinction. We should avoid it.

                            Your stopping of questioning these issues can be seen in two ways.
                            1. You do not comprehend the wisdom, but have firm belief that there is a wisdom behind this and all such matters. This is very mature and the lesson taught in Surah Kahf with the story of Khidr Alayhis Salam.
                            2. You do not think any such wisdom exists, you think Allah should have created you in Jannah but he didn't. You think that it is irrational - contradictory to reason - for him to have done what he did, and this saddens you, but you don't question it as you think a good response will not be given (and think any responses that have been given are flawed even if with some of them you cannot point out the flaw). This is two things - emotional, not rational, and more importantly it is Kibr.
                            Kibr is arrogance and arrogance is what led Shaytan to first bring up this dispute regarding free will, where he argued that he could not be blamed as Allah had decreed that he would do what he had done, so he blamed it on Allah. He thought then that Allah had done something irrational, as Allah is obligated - according to Shaytan - to act in his best interests and he thinks that Allah's creation and decreeing of his actions were not in his best interests and, he thought that he was being compelled by Allah. In other words, he thought he knew better than Allah.

                            That is what the second interpretation of your statement is. If you truly believe that then you necessarily belief you know better than Allah. That is arrogance, and the mindset of Shaytan.

                            Moreover, as can be demonstrated, such reasoning brought by such a person is flawed and has contradictions in it. It is an emotional mindset, not a rational one, but any emotional person can claim to be rational. For instance, an emotional person might lash out to what I have said and say something like, "Are you comparing me to Shaytan?!" etc. without understanding the full context of what I am saying, or arguably being able to tell me what is wrong from a rational viewpoint in comparing similar or equivalent beliefs.

                            What conforms to reason and rationality is not simply what you want to believe is true - it is simply what is the truth itself. The flat earther does not want to believe the Earth is round, so he denies it and says it is flat - bringing flawed mathematical calculations. The atheist does not want to believe in Allah and so brings an emotional and flawed argument e.g. russel's teapot etc. and claims he is using reason. Why? The flat earther and atheist both do not want to accept something that is the truth, so they will justify in their hearts any way for this to not be true. This is known as denialism - this is in affect the definition of Kufr (as the Kafir hides what he knows to be the truth deep down).

                            The example is given classically of Firaun. When the magicians saw Musa Alayhis Salam's staff become a snake, they fell down in Sajdah to Allah as Muslims. As for Firaun, he was arrogant and thought he knew better. He did not want to believe fundamentally that Musa Alayhis Salam was right, so he gave a weak justification, saying he had seen a trick.

                            In the end we see this time and time again, the emotional ones thinking they are using reason, when their 'reasoning' leads to contradictions. Ultimately, unless Allah wills, we will never be able to convince such people as they do not fundamentally want to believe what is true. This is why the christians on this forum can become emotional and reject what we say - they fundementally don't want to believe in their hearts and so won't.

                            (Another possibility of course is that such a person is simply not aware of the correct reasoning - as they have not considered that their thinking leads to contradictions etc. and they are fundamentally a rational person ('Akil) who will accept the truth if it is presented to them properly. To such a person, we expound, debate and answer the concerns through the use of reason, and this reason can even be independent from the texts. If he then rejects, then he is irrational and emotional, if it can be shown that his reasoning contains flaws which it certainly can.)

                            In summary, I hope and pray to Allah that you have only given up questioning the reason behind 'religious matters' as you believe with certainty that there is a wisdom behind it, but that you cannot understand it.

                            I wish you the best my brother.
                            Thank you
                            I'm not sure if I would call it a "firm belief", but the thought was closer to "1".
                            "When you want to cry, laugh.
                            If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

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