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Why do we not all begin life in Paradise, and continue to reside there eternally?

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  • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

    I will copy and paste and reply over there. You really don't understand what Ibn Taymiyyah is trying to say.
    I would be thankful to you, if you could convince me that my understanding of his words are incorrect, especially when these catastrophic beliefs are not befitting of a major scholar like him.

    I would like to ask you to concentrate on one particular issue and that is the issue of Tajsim (not based upon Lawazim, but rather the very belief a corporeal "god" itself!):
    Does he regard God transcendent from being a 3-dimensional being or not? Or let‘s use his own terminology: Is God transcendent from having a Miqdar (size) or not?

    Another point: If the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) is so difficult to understand correctly - to the degree that some of his today’s followers have fallen into clear Tashbih -, then why do you call people (laymen!!!) to study his works? I think you know that my understanding of his works is shared by major scholars in his very time and until today!
    So this is basically like saying "go and study the works of Shaykh Ibn 'Arabi".

    Why not tell people to study from sources that are not controversial? Why putting the people into such risk?
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 16-10-20, 01:28 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

      Which deeds would they testify to if they don't have any deeds because there was no test?
      Why do the deeds need to materialize to pass judgment? What difference does it make?

      Regardless, why do we need to be shown evidence? We have to accept how things are throughout this life without evidence, the same could be done for judgment preemptively. Does anything change if we are shown evidence? No - where we go, we will remain.
      Last edited by Bolt; 20-10-20, 06:10 AM.
      "When you want to cry, laugh.
      If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

        You clearly do not know what blind faith means, but I'll let that pass for now.

        Yes, you are irrational because you are trying to understand the wisdom of Allah in regards to something that he gave you no knowledge of, this is irrational simply because it is impossible.

        You say it affects you, but it doesn't affect you, you have been created to worship Allah, whether you know the wisdom of why Allah choose to create mankind in the first place or not, will not change the fact you are here to worship him.

        Refute these two points, go on.
        No, tell me what blind faith means, then.

        If it doesn't affect us, then why is Belief in the Afterlife an article of faith?

        Ok, we are just here to worship Him, no need to think about why or anything. I smell blind faith.
        "When you want to cry, laugh.
        If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by isa_muhammad View Post

          It IS recorded. However, it makes no sense to say WHEN it was recorded.
          That is because Allah SWT has "no clock on the wall". If you say it was recorded BEFORE we were born, what was the time on Allah SWT's clock?
          He has no clock .. therefore before, in this context, makes no sense.

          I'm probably wasting my time. What you can't grasp is that Allah SWT does not perceive "time" as we do. i.e. past ---> future
          He sees ALL simultaneously, so to speak.

          So .. yes .. in effect it DOES change what is recorded, as far as we are concerned, We do not KNOW what is recorded, so from our perspective, what we do changes the future.
          However, from Allah SWT's perspective, nothing changes at all. He knows what the absolute future is. It is fixed, as we perceive the past is fixed.

          In any case, if you still don't understand, then buy a book on qadr from a reputable Islamic bookstore.
          Allah IS time itself. The pens had been lifted and the ink on the pages dried, so I don't see how it changes anything. (I can quote the Hadith for both statements if required).

          And yes, from Allah's perspective nothing changes, which is exactly the point I was trying to make.

          Will get a book.
          "When you want to cry, laugh.
          If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by isa_muhammad View Post
            ...... That is determined by what we do [ Allah SWT does not FORCE us to do anything ].

            ​​​​​​This is a reminder. Let whoever wishes, take the way to his Lord. But you will only wish to do so if God wills—God is all knowing, all wise.(76:29-30)
            "When you want to cry, laugh.
            If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post
              It now sounds to me like you do not understand your Lord, first you try to understand his wisdom, then knowledge, what next? Why and how Allah hears and speaks?
              Strawman
              "When you want to cry, laugh.
              If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bolt View Post


                ​​​​​​This is a reminder. Let whoever wishes, take the way to his Lord. But you will only wish to do so if God wills—God is all knowing, all wise.(76:29-30)
                Of course .. Allah SWT is closer to us than our jugular vein. Our minds are complex.
                Allah SWT knows better than us what we REALLY think. We often fool ourselves.
                Psychiatrists know very well that our subconscious minds often hide things from our conscious minds.

                Allah SWT doesn't wrong mankind in the slightest .. we wrong our own souls.
                He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms (Zaboor of Dawood)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by isa_muhammad View Post

                  Of course .. Allah SWT is closer to us than our jugular vein. Our minds are complex.
                  Allah SWT knows better than us what we REALLY think. We often fool ourselves.
                  Psychiatrists know very well that our subconscious minds often hide things from our conscious minds.

                  Allah SWT doesn't wrong mankind in the slightest .. we wrong our own souls.
                  I am aware
                  Point was that you were saying that Allah doesn't force us to do anything
                  "When you want to cry, laugh.
                  If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bolt View Post
                    Point was that you were saying that Allah doesn't force us to do anything
                    Well of course He doesn't .. how could He if He doesn't wrong us in the slightest?

                    Allah SWT is not a person. He is more or less incomprehensible. "There is none that compares to Him"
                    He is also Subtle .. Aware.

                    A lot of our misunderstanding comes from envisaging Allah SWT to be a being like us.
                    Our souls belong to Him, and He is aware of how they function.

                    Let's take the fact that Allah SWT spiritually blinds & deafens the disbelievers..
                    How does He do that? Does He wave a magic wand, or is it a consequence of ther own souls .. ther own denial?
                    Last edited by isa_muhammad; 20-10-20, 11:06 AM.
                    He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms (Zaboor of Dawood)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by isa_muhammad View Post

                      Well of course He doesn't .. how could He if He doesn't wrong us in the slightest?

                      Allah SWT is not a person. He is more or less incomprehensible. "There is none that compares to Him"
                      He is also Subtle .. Aware.

                      A lot of our misunderstanding comes from envisaging Allah SWT to be a being like us.
                      Our souls belong to Him, and He is aware of how they function.

                      Let's take the fact that Allah SWT spiritually blinds & deafens the disbelievers..
                      How does He do that? Does He wave a magic wand, or is it a consequence of ther own souls .. ther own denial?
                      Uh, what? The verse explicitly shows that he does in fact control our will. "Let whoever wishes, take the way to his Lord. But you will only wish to do so if God wills".


                      ​​​​​​I'm well aware he is unlike us. And what is their own denial a consequence of? The Providence.
                      "When you want to cry, laugh.
                      If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bolt View Post
                        But you will only wish to do so if God wills".

                        ​​​​​​I'm well aware he is unlike us..
                        Yes .. when we say "He does this " .. "He does that", we have to remember that "He" is used out of respect..
                        .. we don't say "It".

                        So what does it REALLY mean when we say "If God wills"?
                        What is God? How does He do these things?
                        [ or if you prefer, meaning-wise "How does it do all these things?" ]

                        You say that denial is providence .. Allah SWT has decreed it. That is not a correct undestanding.
                        If Allah SWT wrongs nobody [ there is no doubt about this! ], then clearly,
                        He does not decree something that we have no say in.
                        Last edited by isa_muhammad; 20-10-20, 11:49 AM.
                        He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms (Zaboor of Dawood)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by isa_muhammad View Post

                          Yes .. when we say "He does this " .. "He does that", we have to remember that "He" is used out of respect..
                          .. we don't say "It".

                          So what does it REALLY mean when we say "If God wills"?
                          What is God? How does He do these things?
                          [ or if you prefer, meaning-wise "How does it do all these things?" ]

                          You say that denial is providence .. Allah SWT has decreed it. That is not a correct undestanding.
                          If Allah SWT wrongs nobody [ there is no doubt about this! ], then clearly,
                          He does not decree something that we have no say in.
                          Hmm? Can you quote where I used "it" to refer to Allah?

                          If you say that denial is NOT from the providence, then are you saying that it is not something he decreed? You realize that is a flaw from which He'd be free from, right?

                          What do you mean by "not decreeing something we don't have any say in"?
                          Last edited by Bolt; 20-10-20, 12:05 PM.
                          "When you want to cry, laugh.
                          If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bolt View Post

                            Also, would like a source for that last part, "he doesn't decree something we have no say in".
                            A source? Are you for real?
                            Explain to me, how Allah SWT doesn't wrong somebody who He condemns for no reason other than "He planned it" ?

                            You can't can you! If a person was condemned without a good reason, then:-

                            1. a soul would be condemned without a valid reason.
                            2. what would be the point in that soul's existence? To suffer because Allah "planned it" ?

                            Belief is not supposed to be illogical. Allah SWT expects us to use our intelligence.
                            He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms (Zaboor of Dawood)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by isa_muhammad View Post

                              A source? Are you for real?
                              Explain to me, how Allah SWT doesn't wrong somebody who He condemns for no reason other than "He planned it" ?

                              You can't can you! If a person was condemned without a good reason, then:-

                              1. a soul would be condemned without a valid reason.
                              2. what would be the point in that soul's existence? To suffer because Allah "planned it" ?

                              Belief is not supposed to be illogical. Allah SWT expects us to use our intelligence.
                              Was still forming my post - has been edited, different.

                              Also, reply to the 2nd paragraph of my last post
                              Last edited by Bolt; 20-10-20, 12:09 PM.
                              "When you want to cry, laugh.
                              If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                              Comment


                              • I don't see what you can't understand..

                                You are thinking that Allah SWT decreeing something means that He has "planned it all"
                                If you are right, then how can He plan somebody to go to hell, and be The Fairest of All judges at the same time?

                                Abu Abdullah has already explained this to you .. It is iilogical.
                                Do you think that Allah SWT wants us to believe stupid things?
                                He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms (Zaboor of Dawood)

                                Comment

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