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  • The reason of resemblance of child to mother.

    a women said: "Oh messenger of Allah, Allah is not shy to tell the truth. Does a woman have to perform Ghusl if she has a wet dream?" He said: "Yes, if she sees water." Umm Salamah laughed and said: "Do women really have wet dreams?" The Messenger of Allah said how else would her child resemble her?"

    How to reconcile this hadith with science?

  • #2
    I didnt get it...

    Comment


    • #3
      You know I spent 15 min trying to find commentary for this hadith to answer this question but I couldn't find it. Might be better to ask an Imam or check a physical book..? Hopefully a more knowledgeable user may know. I am too scared to give my laymen opinion and suggest something completely wrong.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ImamMurrah View Post
        a women said: "Oh messenger of Allah, Allah is not shy to tell the truth. Does a woman have to perform Ghusl if she has a wet dream?" He said: "Yes, if she sees water." Umm Salamah laughed and said: "Do women really have wet dreams?" The Messenger of Allah said how else would her child resemble her?"

        How to reconcile this hadith with science?
        Which science are you talking about?

        Think carefully about your next post.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ImamMurrah View Post
          a women said: "Oh messenger of Allah, Allah is not shy to tell the truth. Does a woman have to perform Ghusl if she has a wet dream?" He said: "Yes, if she sees water." Umm Salamah laughed and said: "Do women really have wet dreams?" The Messenger of Allah said how else would her child resemble her?"

          How to reconcile this hadith with science?
          We should not always have the mindset that X has to be reconciled with science - many times it has been science which has had to catch up. E.g. at the start of the 20th century with Ghazalian Occasionalism: some ignorant Muslims in Egypt had the mindset that Ghazali's "all particles are instantly created and destroyed by Allah" made no sense as the prevailing view back then was that particles subsist. After Physics progressed, we have come with the realisation that Ghazali Rahimullah was right - the particles making up the universe are instantly created and destroyed and these form a sort of 3d Image which is like the frame of a film.

          With the above Hadith we can state the following:
          1. Women take part in reproduction and half her genetic material is used in the child (thus the resemblence). A common view of the past was that women were not actively involved, and it made no difference whether they enjoyed relations - this is the view that only the mans sperm is responsible for the child - the women are just there to hold the sperm and nurture it into a child. So why would a woman have an emission like a man? I believe the Victorians held this view, so I would not be surprised if the pagan arabs held it.
          2. The idea that the womans' water actually affects the development of the child is found in another hadith - and it can be said that this hadith is referring to a similar thing. See below.
          3. That said this is likely something science has not actually discovered yet, as the hadith I'll explain below is only based on the latest research, one could argue that this is therefore certainly beyond the remit of current scientific understanding (unless a biologist corrects me).
          The Similar Hadith:

          Thauban, the freed slave of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), said:
          ...
          He then said: I have come to ask you about the child. He (the Holy Prophet) said: The reproductive substance of man is white and that of woman yellow, and when they have sexual intercourse and the male's substance prevails upon the female's substance, it is the male child that is created by Allah's Decree, and when the substance of the female prevails upon the substance contributed by the male, a female child is formed by the Decree of Allah. The Jew said: What you have said is true; verily you are an Apostle. He then returned and went away. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: He asked me about such and such things of which I have had no knowledge till Allah gave me that.

          -Sahih Muslim 315 a [Translation]
          One ignorant of the latest developments in the field of Embryology would dismiss this as being anti-science, as we know that it is the sperm and whether the Y-chromosome bearing sperm or the X-chromosome bearing sperm fertilizes the egg.

          Indeed this is mentioned in the Quran:
          "And that He creates the two mates - the male and female - From a sperm-drop when it is emitted"

          (Sahih International's Interpretation of Quran: Surah Najm verses 45-6)
          But a question that is always wondered is why does the Y/X-chromosome bearing sperm reach the egg and not the other chromosome sperm?

          I.e. what causes the "male" or "female" sperm to reach the egg and not vice versa.

          This is actually due to the fact that both sperm have different pH tolerances (hold your horses, I'm not making this up, look at the linked research article below).

          "Male" Y-chromosome bearing sperm tolerate alkaline (higher pH) levels better and the male ejaculate is naturally alkaline.

          "Female" X-chromosome bearing sperm tolerate acidic (low pH) levels better and the female reproductive tract is naturally acidic (I would advice men who wish to remain married not to mention this to their wive(s)).

          Thus when the male fluid predominates, the environment is more alkali so Y-sperm survive and one fertilizes the egg. When the female fluid predominates, the environment is more acidic and so the X-sperm survive and one fertilizes the egg.

          From the research article below:

          "...It was found that at an acidic pH (5.5), more X-chromosome-bearing spermatozoa were able to thrive, while more physiological and alkaline pH were more favorable for the survival of Y-chromosome-bearing spermatozoa...This suggests that upon deposition into the vaginal regions after ejaculation, where pH often reaches levels below 4, Y-chromosome-bearing spermatozoa might not be able to remain viable for long enough to reach the cervical os"

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5654200/

          https://drsusieg.com/blog/does-semen-upset-vaginal-flora

          So how did the Prophet Alayhis Salam know this more than a thousand years ago? And why did the Jew after asking this admit he is a Prophet?


          Regardless, we should not be using science to "prove Islam", as science can at times go barking up the wrong tree. Also many hadith dealing in this sort of topic are at the very periphery of known scientific knowledge, as is the above.

          For hard proofs of this religion, research Kitab-ul-Fitan (written by Bukhari's teacher Nu'aym bin Hammad), and prophecies of the end times. Research the other faiths of the world - in a hadith of the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam he mentions that all the previous prophets (alayhim salam) mentioned him.

          For soft proofs, you have the beautiful teachings of the Prophet Alayhis Salam.
          Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
          "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
          Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

          Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
          1/116

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

            We should not always have the mindset that X has to be reconciled with science - many times it has been science which has had to catch up. E.g. at the start of the 20th century with Ghazalian Occasionalism: some ignorant Muslims in Egypt had the mindset that Ghazali's "all particles are instantly created and destroyed by Allah" made no sense as the prevailing view back then was that particles subsist. After Physics progressed, we have come with the realisation that Ghazali Rahimullah was right - the particles making up the universe are instantly created and destroyed and these form a sort of 3d Image which is like the frame of a film.

            With the above Hadith we can state the following:
            1. Women take part in reproduction and half her genetic material is used in the child (thus the resemblence). A common view of the past was that women were not actively involved, and it made no difference whether they enjoyed relations - this is the view that only the mans sperm is responsible for the child - the women are just there to hold the sperm and nurture it into a child. So why would a woman have an emission like a man? I believe the Victorians held this view, so I would not be surprised if the pagan arabs held it.
            2. The idea that the womans' water actually affects the development of the child is found in another hadith - and it can be said that this hadith is referring to a similar thing. See below.
            3. That said this is likely something science has not actually discovered yet, as the hadith I'll explain below is only based on the latest research, one could argue that this is therefore certainly beyond the remit of current scientific understanding (unless a biologist corrects me).
            The Similar Hadith:



            One ignorant of the latest developments in the field of Embryology would dismiss this as being anti-science, as we know that it is the sperm and whether the Y-chromosome bearing sperm or the X-chromosome bearing sperm fertilizes the egg.

            Indeed this is mentioned in the Quran:


            But a question that is always wondered is why does the Y/X-chromosome bearing sperm reach the egg and not the other chromosome sperm?

            I.e. what causes the "male" or "female" sperm to reach the egg and not vice versa.

            This is actually due to the fact that both sperm have different pH tolerances (hold your horses, I'm not making this up, look at the linked research article below).

            "Male" Y-chromosome bearing sperm tolerate alkaline (higher pH) levels better and the male ejaculate is naturally alkaline.

            "Female" X-chromosome bearing sperm tolerate acidic (low pH) levels better and the female reproductive tract is naturally acidic (I would advice men who wish to remain married not to mention this to their wive(s)).

            Thus when the male fluid predominates, the environment is more alkali so Y-sperm survive and one fertilizes the egg. When the female fluid predominates, the environment is more acidic and so the X-sperm survive and one fertilizes the egg.

            From the research article below:

            "...It was found that at an acidic pH (5.5), more X-chromosome-bearing spermatozoa were able to thrive, while more physiological and alkaline pH were more favorable for the survival of Y-chromosome-bearing spermatozoa...This suggests that upon deposition into the vaginal regions after ejaculation, where pH often reaches levels below 4, Y-chromosome-bearing spermatozoa might not be able to remain viable for long enough to reach the cervical os"

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5654200/

            https://drsusieg.com/blog/does-semen-upset-vaginal-flora

            So how did the Prophet Alayhis Salam know this more than a thousand years ago? And why did the Jew after asking this admit he is a Prophet?


            Regardless, we should not be using science to "prove Islam", as science can at times go barking up the wrong tree. Also many hadith dealing in this sort of topic are at the very periphery of known scientific knowledge, as is the above.

            For hard proofs of this religion, research Kitab-ul-Fitan (written by Bukhari's teacher Nu'aym bin Hammad), and prophecies of the end times. Research the other faiths of the world - in a hadith of the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam he mentions that all the previous prophets (alayhim salam) mentioned him.

            For soft proofs, you have the beautiful teachings of the Prophet Alayhis Salam.
            That research is three years old. Surely if it had that much validity the manufacturers of artificial lube would have been able to market their products with more or less acidity in order to favour boy or girl according to wishes of the parents? As far as I was always aware, female fluid is just there for lubrication, which obviously aids intercourse but not decide sex of baby. Same for quantity of sperm, surely it would depend upon the ratio of types of sperm rather than total volume/quantity? 🤔

            Comment


            • #7
              And just because a child is female doesn't mean it resembles the mother more. As subjective as that might be, I've seen evidence from my perspective showing the opposite. Just my opinion though.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Macaroni View Post

                That research is three years old. Surely if it had that much validity the manufacturers of artificial lube would have been able to market their products with more or less acidity in order to favour boy or girl according to wishes of the parents? As far as I was always aware, female fluid is just there for lubrication, which obviously aids intercourse but not decide sex of baby. Same for quantity of sperm, surely it would depend upon the ratio of types of sperm rather than total volume/quantity? 🤔
                Regarding the Research
                First I would like to say that I am not a biologist and so I should not really be commenting on the validity/invalidity of research and neither should you in that regard.

                I cited the research as it has been published in a peer reviewed journal and has been cited by other articles since (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6691984/).

                Even older research documents the same (e.g. the following has been cited by 102 other research articles, according to google scholar):
                https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.co...1970.tb00029.x

                As I mentioned above, the hadith is dealing with something on the very periphery of scientific knowledge - when Al-Ghazali talked about the instant creation and destruction of particles, for hundreds of years the (western) scientific consensus was against him - so much so that some reformist/modernist Muslims near the start of the 20th century started claiming that Islam and the Quran and Sunnah does not support al-Ghazali's claim - and they promoted the then scientific consensus that particles subsist. Later as Quantum theory was developed, al-Ghazali was vindicated and the likes of Muhammad Abduh were made to look like people who just pandered to current scientific consensus.

                So what I say is, let the scientists do the science, as objectively as they can, and let us look at the hadith as objectively as we can - let us not pander to current scientific consensus. If we do this, then Muslims can effectively be ahead of the curve of science, knowing things we really shouldn't. E.g. in the Prophet Alayhis Salam's time a women who had given birth to a baby 6 months after marrriage was not punished. Why? The Sahabah understood that pregnancies can last 6 months - this knowledge of pre-mature birth is not something they should have necessarily had. But by having it they could now exercise better judgement.

                What gives us Yaqeen, made prior people question their religion
                Now if I were to take you to the turn of the 20th century and were to tell you that most of the traditional ulama hold this doctrine known as Occasionalism etc. and it contradicts scientific consensus, would you lose faith? Of course you would. And there would not be much I could do other than to say, "Science has not caught up". This is the problem with most of the hard proofs of this religion - at some point they were anti-proofs.

                A very good example, outside of the realm of science, and in the realm of prophecy is the following hadith:

                ...
                When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

                - Sahih al-Bukhari 50
                ...
                He (the enquirer) again said: Inform me about the hour (of the Doom). He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: One who is asked knows no more than the one who is inquiring (about it). He (the inquirer) said: Tell me some of its indications. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and master, that you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent* buildings. He (the narrator, Umar ibn al-Khattab) said: Then he (the inquirer) went on his way but I stayed with him (the Holy Prophet) for a long while. He then, said to me: Umar, do you know who this inquirer was? I replied: Allah and His Apostle knows best. He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: He was Gabriel (the angel). He came to you in order to instruct you in matters of religion.

                - Sahih Muslim Book 1, Hadith 1
                *Interesting to note that in my translation of the commentary of Sahih Muslim written by an-Nawawi, translated by Adil Salahi, this word is translated as "lofty" - which would match the other matn. Wiktionary also says that the related words mean to be long, tall, to lengthen, be to tall etc. Aratools specifically says "they be lengthened" and even "be insolent". I have my own theory as to why the translater here purposefully selected "magnificent", but nevertheless I am not here to get into a sectarian discussion of who funds many of these English translations...
                ...
                He said: "When a slave woman gives birth to her mistress, when you see the barefoot, naked, destitute shepherds competing in making tall buildings.'" 'Umar said: 'Three (days) passed, then the Messenger of Allah [SAW] said to me: "O 'Umar, do you know who the questioner was?" I said: "Allah and His Messenger know best." He said: "That was Jibril, peace be upon him, who came to you to teach you your religion."

                - Sunan an-Nasa'i Book 47, Hadith 6
                First of all, notice that the first matn I quoted above has the addition "of black camels". This same matn is also found in Sahih Muslim. Black camels are very rare... But I'll let you piece together what this might mean.

                Who are the "barefooted, destitue goat-herds"? Imam an-Nawawi Rahimullah (who lived more than seven hundred years ago), tells us in his commentary of Sahih Muslim that this refers to the inhabitants of the deserts i.e. the Bedouin.

                Now by the way, in modern times, we have a strange situation in the Arabian peninusla, in that the bedouins of the gulf coast are rich, building cities off of oil money, and some bedouins from the central arabian peninsula even rule over haram shareef (traditionally ruled by the farming city Arabs - as it was even in Rasulallah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam's time).

                By the way the tallest building in the world is Burj Khalifa, at 829.8m...

                But don't worry, it won't be for long - in Kuwait they are building the even, higher 1001m high Burj Mubarak al Kabir... And in Jeddah, they decided they will not be outdone, they are building the 1008m Jeddah tower... Away from the top place war, back in Dubai, seeking a comfy 4th place is the Dubai Creek Tower.

                They are literally competing to building taller buildings...

                Does this not give us Iman - when we notice the prophecies of Rasulallahu Alayhis Salam coming true? But...

                This same Prophecy would make you question your faith if you lived 500 years ago. 500 years ago, the bedouin were, and had always been, an ignorant bunch living out in the deserts. Building tall buildings? They didn't build at all - they lived in tents! In the Hanafi Madhab (Nur al-Idah), the ruling was the the bedouin was discouraged from leading the Salah as they were viewed as that ignorant. Now imagine you are a citizen of Madinah back then and you hear in a dars of Sihah Sitta, that there shall come a time when those guys - yes those guys - will compete against each other in the contruction of higher buildings... Such an idea makes no sense - how can those people who are nomads, leading herds of camels ever get the ability to build such structures? And wouldn't they knowing of the hadith of Umar Radiyallahu An prohibiting the construction of tall buildings, not actually go through with it? Put yourself in their position - how believable does it sound that this would actually happen? That the tribes of the east would get together and do such a thing?

                Subhanallah, if you were living in those times - you may even have begun to doubt.

                I note that Imam an-Nawawi, in his commentary of this has a small paragraph relagated to it, after which he says that Allah knows best. Can you blame him? What should he have said? He Rahimullah, took it on faith though it sounds like a bizarre thing.

                Summary
                So what should we learn from the above? We should learn that things which give future people yaqeen are things that gave people prior people doubts as such things do not meet their time's consensus of science, or do not meet what they understand of society around them. Such things that for prior people did not make sense they took on faith and they were vindicated as such. Similarly we are the prior people to the people of the future and there are things we must take on faith as our understanding of the empirical realm and reality develop. We should not seek to reinterpret them, rather we should let them stand as they are. Then soon, insha'Allah there shall to come a time when science catches up, or society changes in such unimaginable ways, that vindicate the ahadith and teachings, as has happened innumerable times before.

                I'll leave you with a Quranic example of this. In the time of Rasulalllah Alayhis Salatu was-Salam, the Romans were losing (the Muslims identified with them whilst the Kuffar identified with the Persians). But Allah told the believers, that soon they shall win - and indeed if you study Byzantine–Sasanian War of 602–628, this is exactly what happened:


                Alif, Lam, Meem. The Byzantines have been defeated In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome. Within three to nine years. To Allah belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoice In the victory of Allah . He gives victory to whom He wills, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Merciful.

                (Sahih International's Interpretation of Surah ar-Rum, verses 1-5)

                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                1/116

                Comment


                • #9
                  Insha'Allah, will soon be writing regarding Adam Alayhis Salam and his story, I invite you to read what I write as insha'Allah it will increase your yaqeen as I present some proofs of his story.
                  Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                  "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                  Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                  Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                  1/116

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Delete
                    Last edited by Macaroni; 30-04-20, 07:09 AM.

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