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How is interest haram when the time value of money exists?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by stpablo View Post

    Well it gives me hope that bigots like you aren’t very intelligent, given your struggle to understand simple interest. It took you 2 pages of explanation to understand LOL
    We understand it alright, we just don't think it's clever to change the deen of Allah whilst claiming to be Muslim. But then if you are Shia then changing Islam isn't a big deal to you.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

      We understand it alright, we just don't think it's clever to change the deen of Allah whilst claiming to be Muslim. But then if you are Shia then changing Islam isn't a big deal to you.
      No you didn't, you thought you understood it. I told you I have extra cows and you said everyone in the village is starving. What is the logic behind that lmao? Of course, Allah gave everyone their required intelligence so you shouldn't worry about it

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      • #33
        Originally posted by stpablo View Post

        No you didn't, you thought you understood it. I told you I have extra cows and you said everyone in the village is starving. What is the logic behind that lmao? Of course, Allah gave everyone their required intelligence so you shouldn't worry about it
        Well, you stated that if you didn't engage in your money-grabbing ways and lend cows to a villager, he wouldn't be able to sell wheat to other villages and everyone would be worse off. Why would other villages be worse off without buying wheat from your village... surely they would just grow their own wheat or get it from somewhere else?



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        • #34
          Originally posted by stpablo View Post
          ...Allah gave everyone their required intelligence so you shouldn't worry about it
          Yet you want to change the laws of Allah. This is why Shias are not considered to be people of integrity or credibility.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by stpablo View Post
            ..This is even more startling. The fact that you would hinder your village's economic growth just for "piousness"
            What is "piousness"? Do you mean trying to please Allah SWT?
            How can that be mistaken? It is YOU who are mistaken.

            Originally posted by stpablo View Post
            .. No one is losing out, I don't understand why you think someone is being exploited. In fact, everyone BENEFITS from the loan arrangements.
            Is that so..
            Have the rural Chinese benefitted by being "shipped" to new towns?
            They might think so .. they might not. I wouldn't want to live my life constantly wearing a mask :sour:

            It is the industrail revolution that started it all. Paper money, gold hoarding, loans.
            Prophet Muhammad SAW told us that "the Ummah" would follow the Christians & Jews .. so much so, that they would follow them into the hole of a lizard.
            You see, the problem with following the west / world's apparent success is having to accept total collapse along with them

            ..not easy to cross the "bridge of sirat" into jannat.
            of course, economic prosperity may be your idea of jannat. Money seems to have a habit of circulating amongst the few .. I suppose the same can be said about "piousness"

            "Piousness" has its reward with Allah SWt .. what is money, compared with that!?!
            Last edited by isa_muhammad; 13-02-20, 01:57 AM.
            He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms (Zaboor of Dawood)

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              Yet you want to change the laws of Allah. This is why Shias are not considered to be people of integrity or credibility.
              HAHAHA, that's what they say of Sunnis. They cross their arms during prayer because they hide a knife between their sleeves...

              And last I checked, who are doing all the suicide bombings and terrorism? SUNNI muslims. Who is destroying the CREDIBILITY and NAME of Muslims in the international world? Sunni terrorist muslims.
              Al Qaeda? Sunni

              Taliban? Sunni

              ISIS? Sunni

              Osama Bin Laden? Sunni

              All terrorists are Sunni.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by stpablo View Post

                HAHAHA, that's what they say of Sunnis. They cross their arms during prayer because they hide a knife between their sleeves...

                And last I checked, who are doing all the suicide bombings and terrorism? SUNNI muslims. Who is destroying the CREDIBILITY and NAME of Muslims in the international world? Sunni terrorist muslims.
                Al Qaeda? Sunni

                Taliban? Sunni

                ISIS? Sunni

                Osama Bin Laden? Sunni

                All terrorists are Sunni.
                You are literally calling to disobey Allah in one of the most heinous ways possible - exploiting people you call your brothers and sisters. Waging war on Allah due to malice and greed, and you used Wikipedia to do it.

                I also love that you didn't cite Shia scholars to 'back your claims.'

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by stpablo View Post
                  ...The discussion of interest and Riba must continue and we can’t rely on current scholars opinions because most Islamic scholars don’t know anything about Economics or Economic growth...
                  "...we can’t rely on current scholars opinions..."

                  ...20th century Modernist jurists, such as Muhammad Abduh, Rashid Rida, Mahmud Shaltut, Syed Ahmad Khan, Fazl al-Rahman, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy.[211] The "thin ranks"[212] of notable contemporary non-orthodox scholars[210] include Fathi Osman, Nawab Haider Naqvi, Salim Rashid, Imad al-Din Ahmed, Omar Afzal, Raquibuzzaman, Abdulaziz Sachedina, Abdullah Saeed, Mahmud El-Gamal and Mohammad Fadel”...
                  Cites modernists.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by stpablo View Post
                    ...

                    “A number of the high level jurists affiliated in some way with Muslim-majority governments have opposed a ban on all interest. Egyptian President Anwar Sadat obtained a fatwa from the Sheikh of al-Azhar ruled that interest-bearing treasury bonds were consistent with Islamic law.[368]...
                    When you click the link:
                    Miller, Judith (1999). God Has Ninety-Nine Names: Reporting from a Militant Middle East. NY: Simon and Schuster. pp. 79–80. ISBN 9781439129418. Retrieved 15 April 2015. Usually, the ruler got the fatwa he wanted on key policy issues. Under Sadat, for example, the sheikh of al-Azhar ruled that interest-bearing treasury bonds were consistent with divine law and that Sadat's trip to Jerusalem and subsequent peace treaty with Israel were in keeping with the faith. Another Azhari had even ruled that beer was halal because it did not technically fall under the ban on alcohol ...
                    ...Even more scholars that back my claim...
                    Some great scholars in your corner.

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                    • #40
                      Miller, Judith (1999). God Has Ninety-Nine Names: Reporting from a Militant Middle East. NY: Simon and Schuster. pp. 79–80. ISBN 9781439129418. Retrieved 15 April 2015. Usually, the ruler got the fatwa he wanted on key policy issues. Under Sadat, for example, the sheikh of al-Azhar ruled that interest-bearing treasury bonds were consistent with divine law and that Sadat's trip to Jerusalem and subsequent peace treaty with Israel were in keeping with the faith. Another Azhari had even ruled that beer was halal because it did not technically fall under the ban on alcohol ...
                      If you click on the title, it takes you to a copy on Google Books. What does it say in the Google search bar?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by stpablo View Post
                        ...More recently the mufti of Egypt, Dr. Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy, issued several fatawa permitting bank interest in 1991.[138][369]...
                        [369]:

                        Khalil, Emad H. 2006 "An overview of the Shariah prohibition of riba". In Interest in Islamic Economics: Understanding Riba, edited by Abdulkader Thomas. London: Routledge. p.83
                        ...The Sanduq al-Tawfir affair revisitedTo some extent, this question became moot when in the fall of 1989, the Government-appointed Mufti of Egypt, Dr Muhammad Sayed Tantawi, ruled that interest on Government Investment Certificates (Shahadat al-Istithmar) and similar financial instruments such as Postal Saving Accounts (Sanadiq al-Tawfir) was in accordance with the Sharia'a. He issued his fatwa, apparently at the request of the Government which had been losing out on millions of dollars worth of Egyptians’ savings to Islamic Banks and similar institutions. His ruling re-ignited a bitter debate that goes back to the turn of the century with Muhammad Abdu and Rashid Rida...
                        https://ie.um.ac.ir/images/329/Artic...omics.pdf5.pdf

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                          When it's used as a pejorative.

                          Kufaar are deviants by definition.
                          hmm, but not all deviants are kaafir...
                          "Yaa Allah grant me victory, or make me die Shaheed"

                          Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.
                          (surah al-anfal v.30)

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by stpablo View Post

                            I’m Shia, you consider that kaafir? Shame on you and all the other Sunnis who think that
                            Depends what school of thought you are; I mean, if you believe:

                            the 12 Imams are infallible, and/or;
                            the Qur'an that the Sunnis have is only part of the Qur'an, or distorted, and/or;
                            Hadhrat Jibraeel (AS) gave revelation to the wrong person (na aaoothu billah), and/or;
                            it's ok to swear at the wives of RasoolAllah , and/or the Sahaabah Ikraam (RA), and/or;
                            many many other things, then yes you're kaafir...
                            "Yaa Allah grant me victory, or make me die Shaheed"

                            Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.
                            (surah al-anfal v.30)

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