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Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

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    Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

    I searched and found many articles pertaining to my questions, but I couldn't conclude a satisfactory answer regarding my issues. I request the readers to provide me answer/s from Quran and Sunnah

    1. Prior to Ramadan, Fajar Salat in mosque was offered just before the dawn breaks and after we leave the mosque (after praying), we can see that darkness has vanished (not completely but with 100% clear distinction)

    2. Now since the start of Ramadan, The Siren to End the Suhoor is given at 5-10 minutes before Fajar Azaan and Fajar Salat in mosque is offered after 5 minutes of Azaan. In total, the Fajar Salat is offered half and hour before the time it use to be done in normal days (non-ramadan months)

    3. Now, why it is so ? Because even after offering the Fajar Salah, it still dark and you can't see anywhere even a streak of light, what about this verse ...eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread;... - 2.187

    4. How come we have two different Fajar times ?

    5. Then we have the Hadith "When the above verses were revealed: "Until the white thread appears to you, distinct from the black thread,"I took two (hair) strings, one black and the other white, and kept them under my pillow and went on looking at them throughout the night but could not make anything out of it. So, the next morning I went to Allah's Apostle and told him the whole story. He explained to me, "That verse means the darkness of the night and the whiteness of the dawn." - Sahi Bukhari Vol 3 Hadith No.140

    6. From Fiqh-Sunnah The time for the pre-dawn meal is between the middle of the night and dawn. It is considered best to delay it (that is, as close to dawn a possible). Zaid ibn Thabit reported: "We ate the pre-dawn meal with the Messenger of Allah and then we got up for the prayer. He was asked: 'What was the amount of time between the two?' He responded: '[The time it would take to recite] fifty verses.' " This is recounted by al-Bukhari and Muslim.

    'Amr ibn Maimun adds: "The companions of Muhammad, upon whom be peace, would be the first to break the fast and the last to eat their pre-dawn meals." This is recorded by al-Baihaqi with a sahih chain.

    7. Now the above Hadith is very clear and it points it to the time between Azaan of Fajar and actual starting of the salat in mosque (calculating that the time taken to read 50 verses is 15 mins and this is difference of time between Azaan and Salaat) but the question remains same that did Prophet also had 2 different timings for Fajar in Ramadan and Non-Ramadan days ?

    8. If in normal days, Fajar Azaan was at 5.15 am and Jamat was standing at 5.25 AM, then Suhoor time ends at 5.15 AM but now we have different situation. Suhoor ending siren rings at 4.35, Fajar Azaan is at 4.45 and Fajar Jamaat is at 4.55 (or 4.50). ?

    9. There is difference in time of Dawn and Sunrise. As per this site http://www.islamicity.com/prayerTime...Delhi%2C+India

    Dawn is at 4.40 and Sunrise is at 6.01. I don't know this dawn is being calculated but at 4:40 is still dark. Yet, 6.01 is too late. The approx where light can be seen is somewhere in between this time.

    JazakAllah
    Last edited by khushdost; 03-09-08, 05:33 PM.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly." - Albert Einstein

    #2
    Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

    I dont know the answer but I am interested in any explanations. Bump
    When told that it was religiously permissible to say what pleases his persecuters without believing in it at the time of mihna, Ahmad ibn Hanbal said "If I remained silent and you remained silent, then who will teach the ignorant?".

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

      Originally posted by khushdost View Post

      3. Now, why it is so ? Because even after offering the Fajar Salah, it still dark and you can't see anywhere even a streak of light, what about this verse ...eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread;... - 2.187

      4. How come we have two different Fajar times ?

      5. Then we have the Hadith "When the above verses were revealed: "Until the white thread appears to you, distinct from the black thread.... Sahi Bukhari Vol 3 Hadith No.140
      JazakAllah

      I too always wondered why we have to stop eating long before we see any sign of dawn (10 minutes before fajr time) and the contradiction with "Eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appears to you...".

      Would that be a verse that was later updated somewhere else in the Quran?

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

        a few things....

        fajr starts at dawn


        the time of azan is not necessarily the beginning time for fajr.

        usually throughout the year mosques tend to pray fajr a bit later to give people chance to sleep more, hence the slightly later time.

        however in ramadan as people are awake for suhoor, having fajr very soon after dawn makes sense because people are already awake.

        so there isnt 2 fajr times, rather fajr is from dawn to sunrise throughout the year and it is only the jamaat times in the mosque that are different.

        as for seeing the dawn..it may be difficult due to the street lights..
        i will bear any ordeal, but i will not beg


        Watch the game, Learn the game, Control the game.

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          #5
          Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

          I don't get it that people stop eating long before Fajr time.

          The Qur'an states clearly to eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appears distinct to the black thread of night. So when you can see the white light of the Sun (not the Sun itself) like a line on the bottom of the sky then this is the dawn and your cue to stop eating and drinking.

          Correct me if I am wrong of course.
          Allah will ask on the Day of Judgment: “Where are those who loved each other for the sake of My glory? Today, on a day when there is no shade but Mine, I shall shade them with My shade.”(Muslim)

          "Zendagi Migzara..."

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            #6
            Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

            the reason for different times is that different muftis say the twilight is first there when the sun is at different degrees beneath the horizon...for example ISNA calculates it to be 18/19 degrees, which thus causes the fajr time to be later than most other timings...Majority say it is actually less than 19 degrees...and the degrees ranges from 15 to 18....

            the best plan of action is to remain safe in this case and not be easy on yourself because you may eat past the alotted time allowed...so just take whatever fajr time your calendar or computer says, and just stop eating 5-10 minutes before that time to be safe.

            Don't forget before calculations were used, the muezzin used to be completely adjusted to nighttime vision with his eyes (which takes 30-45 minutes), and their houses did not have lights like ours do...if you wish to see with your naked eye, turn off all the lights and let your eyes get adjusted to the dark (30 - 45 minutes) and wait until you see the sky lighten a shade...

            but if u ask me its much easier to just use the calculated time (so you dont need to become your own muezzin...this is ease...and ease is good)

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

              How do you exactly define the thin line or the white thread of dawn? Do you have a clear and fine definition for it. If you were to follow it in this way, then how sure are you that your guess, prediction you would make about this, every single day would be correct? Would you be careful every day to watch out of your window into the sky to determine the thin line before you stop eating? Practically is this easy for us? Even if we do it this way, what about the accuracy? How accurate will be each individuals guess?

              I dont understand why some people create issues and come up with an issue when there isn't one. Allah has made life easy for muslims that we have all these instruments handy, by which scientifically the dawn and dusk times have been determined. The current method we have is much easier and more accurate for a common muslim and laymen.

              However, now a days, some of us try to interpret everything in deen from their own intellect.

              In those days during the time of prophet and sahaba there were no instruments for them to check time. Hence they had to rely on stars as a guide when they travel and they had to rely on the white thread method to determine dawn.

              We might as well start looking at stars when we need to travel rather than using GPS or any other means of transport that is available to us.
              لا أريد مِنْكُمْ جَزَاء وَلا شُكُورًا

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                #8
                Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

                For Scientific calculation of Twilight, there are these 3 methods. And all these methods show a considerable difference in time. Which one be the most appropriate to adopt ?

                http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...&afl=-13&day=1

                Sahaba were not having any scientific instruments to calculate the time and hence there were variations in their calculation

                http://moonsighting.com/faq_pt.html#F4

                Question F4: I was very surprised to see a wide difference in timing for Fajr & Isha calculated by assumptions of various organizations. Can you explain?

                Answer: Different organizations used degrees based calculations, because they do not have complete year observations for Subh-Sadiq and disappearance of Shafaq. Muslims have resorted to some easy solution of choosing specific degrees, but that is not right. Remember, in the times of Prophet (SAV), there were no watches. Much more variations were in practice, even to the extent that Sahaabah (RA) prayed Fajr in Ghalas (darkness of night mixed with light) or Isfaar (when the light has spread conspicuously). This variation was more than half an hour. Qur'an mentions Fajr time as when you can differentiate a black thread from a white thread. Some Sahabi (RA) was observed to physically take two threads and trying to see them; the Prophet (SAV) clarified to him (RA) that this is not the intent of Shari'ah. It is when the very faint light of morning begins to spread horizontally in the darkness of night.

                I don't think Allah will not accept their fast(Naudibillah) for their variation of time.

                Second, not everyone has GPS or is living near a mosque with scientifically calculated time. What if that person just looks at the sky and decides to end his suhoor by his own calculation.

                Even if there is no street lightning(and no lightning in the buildings) and the night sky is clearly visible, the judgment made by naked eyes would always be delayed than what is scientifically calculated time(the twilight calculated by astronomical calculation method as given above) of the twilight

                What are we trying to say here ? That compared with our time (i.e. 1429 Hijri) and our modern scientific gadgets, were the Sahaba wrong in calculation of the twilight time ? Or both of them are right? We are right in our time and they were right in their time.

                Its not about not having reliance on scientific instruments but clear distinction between what is observable by eyes and what is through scientific methods. Considering the fact that we take the method which gives the earliest twilight time.
                "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly." - Albert Einstein

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                  #9
                  Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

                  The Prophet said :

                  Hurry to break your fast & lengthen your Suhoor.

                  Just ignore ppl who say..." Hurry up" OR "The azaan has been said & ur fast is invalid etc' Just ignore them or just remind them that you are fasting for Allah ONLY & not for x y z !

                  I asked some im'mans and they said that IF you are shuhoor-ing
                  at home and hear the azaan of Fajr and are late & / or cooking , you may eat suhoor for another 20mins. Don't misss suhoors , its sunnah, unless you overslept etc.

                  It is difficult to see the first line of light on the horizon ( unless one is in a ship or if one lives by the sea etc !!) coz of weather or if on is in a tower block etc
                  Draw closer to Allah swt, contemplate about His vast creation .

                  Atheism is a deathblow to one's thinking.....it's an idea that is as far-fetched as any imaginary world that a child is able to conjure up; and it is an error unsurpassed in the annals of errors. 'Aaidh ibn Abdullah al-Qarni

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

                    Originally posted by Oceanic View Post
                    The Prophet said :

                    Hurry to break your fast & lengthen your Suhoor.

                    Just ignore ppl who say..." Hurry up" OR "The azaan has been said & ur fast is invalid etc' Just ignore them or just remind them that you are fasting for Allah ONLY & not for x y z !

                    I asked some im'mans and they said that IF you are shuhoor-ing
                    at home and hear the azaan of Fajr and are late & / or cooking , you may eat suhoor for another 20mins. Don't misss suhoors , its sunnah, unless you overslept etc.

                    It is difficult to see the first line of light on the horizon ( unless one is in a ship or if one lives by the sea etc !!) coz of weather or if on is in a tower block etc
                    Brother, i also share the similar kind of views. But the problem is that if I don't follow the mosques, then i am leaving Fajar in Jamaat. And if i have to offer fajar in mosque, then anyway i have to leave eating before 15 minutes. Because time gap of 15 minutes (equivalent to 50 ayaatats) is also necessary.

                    I have another point, which i would put here
                    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly." - Albert Einstein

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                      #11
                      Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

                      What I have found is that there is clear contradiction between what can be seen with naked and what can be calculated with scientific methods.

                      I have a software called, Salat Time, this software itself has 5 different methods of calculation for Salat Timing

                      1. Egyptian General Authority of Survey
                      2. ISNA
                      3. Muslim World League
                      4. Umm Al-Qura
                      5. University of Islamic Sciences, Karanchi

                      All 5 of them, show different timings.

                      At the end of it, an individual has to rely on scientific methods for offering prayer in Jamat. Even being fully aware that Prophet (Peace be upon him ) and the companions always trusted their eyes for the same.
                      "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly." - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

                        I don't like mosque timetables, there's always something silly going on, they'll be adjusting things because they 'feel like it', or they 'know better'.

                        Instead of using the calendars, I open up my trusty almanac (if you don't have one, why not?) - and flick through to astronomical twilight times (not nautical, and definitely not civil) and just use that as your end of suhoor time/beginning of Fajr.

                        Nice, simple, accurate and free from the meddling hands of mosque committees.

                        Online version at HM Nautical Almanac Office: http://websurf.hmnao.com/

                        There's even a 'Prayers' section in there if you want adjusted times for Fajr, just be careful what you're doing.
                        ...sermons from this minbar come with tongue planted quite firmly in cheek.


                        "Let your boat of life be light, packed with only what you need -
                        a homely home and simple pleasures, one or two friends,
                        worth the name, someone to love and someone to love you,
                        a cat, a dog, and a pipe or two, enough to eat and enough to wear,
                        and a little more than enough to drink; for thirst is a dangerous thing."

                        -- Jerome K. Jerome
                        (Three Men in a Boat)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

                          Originally posted by Joha View Post
                          I don't like mosque timetables, there's always something silly going on, they'll be adjusting things because they 'feel like it', or they 'know better'.

                          My brother says the same thing........
                          وَالْعَصْرِ

                          إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

                          إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ

                          "If Allah (swt) only sent this Surah to us, for the guidance of Mankind, this will be enough for us” - Imam Shaafi'ee r.a.

                          "Yeh dunya daar e faani hain, Tum apna dil mat lagaon, Ganimat samaj zinadagee ki bahar, aana na hoga, yahaa baar baar......"

                          Khanqah Habibiyah

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                            #14
                            Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

                            Originally posted by Jenicca View Post
                            My brother says the same thing........
                            Well it's true...the number of times I've seen wildly differing times - don't get me wrong, they do it with the best of intentions, and in some cases there are differences in the method of calculation between the different schools of thought...

                            But for Fajr/Zuhr/Maghrib there shouldn't be much of a difference, and yet there is.

                            It's not as if the source of the calendars is divine, they use the same data from HMNAO's almanac as everyone else, but they fiddle with the numbers.
                            ...sermons from this minbar come with tongue planted quite firmly in cheek.


                            "Let your boat of life be light, packed with only what you need -
                            a homely home and simple pleasures, one or two friends,
                            worth the name, someone to love and someone to love you,
                            a cat, a dog, and a pipe or two, enough to eat and enough to wear,
                            and a little more than enough to drink; for thirst is a dangerous thing."

                            -- Jerome K. Jerome
                            (Three Men in a Boat)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Confused regaring the time to stop eating Suhoor

                              Originally posted by Joha View Post
                              Well it's true...the number of times I've seen wildly differing times - don't get me wrong, they do it with the best of intentions, and in some cases there are differences in the method of calculation between the different schools of thought...

                              But for Fajr/Zuhr/Maghrib there shouldn't be much of a difference, and yet there is.

                              It's not as if the source of the calendars is divine, they use the same data from HMNAO's almanac as everyone else, but they fiddle with the numbers.
                              As post #6 said, Fajr and Mughrib are tricky due to the number of degrees. Astronomical data regard sunset and sunrise when the Sun is half way below the horizon, whereas Islamically sunrise begins when the edge of the Sun becomes visible and sunset is when the entire Sun is no longer visible. And so there will be several minutes of difference. Then it depends on how high you are-- this will make a massive difference depending on geography, which country calculations were done etc -- and the degrees used to calculate. In the UK the degrees thing is a big issue as the difference between 15 or 18 degrees can be up to an hour (maybe more?).

                              Some mosques have a habit of using the same timetable every year, but these are also not quite right as the salah times can differ by a couple of a minutes each year.

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