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    Re: Are (YOU) a racist ?

    Originally posted by itsgiise View Post
    Interesting... Worth looking into. I must say this looks compelling.
    Were you surprised to come upon these? A lot of the scholars were probably as well and they had a hard time formulating a rationale for this. The majority of the scholars supported the position that being Quraysh is a condition of being a caliph and there is nearly a consensus on this among the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah. Imam An-Nawawi emphatically said only those who have Quraysh lineage can be rulers and anyone who says otherwise is of Ahlul Bidah. This is very interesting because if Al-Baghdadi doesn't have Quraysh lineage, ISIS is Ahlul-Bidah, the very thing they claim to be fighting against. Those of the scholars who supported the position that being Quraysh is not necessary are in the very tiny minority and are frankly in all-out denial mode probably because they are non-arabs.

    Here's an interesting overview:

    https://www.deoband.org/2010/07/gene...-from-quraysh/

    al-Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him) said, “These hadiths and those similar to them are clear proof that the caliphate is specific to Quraysh and its contraction is not permissible for any beside them, and on this ijma’ convened in the time of the Companions and also after them. So whoever disagrees in this [matter] amongst the heretics (ahl al-bid’ah), or alludes to a disagreement from other than them, he is confuted by the ijma’ of the Companions and the Successors, and those after them by the authentic hadiths.”

    I could be wrong but from what I know the Ansar were unaware of this hadiths and they wanted one of their own in the role in ruling.

    "We are the rulers and you (Ansars) are the ministers (i.e. advisers)," Hubab bin Al-Mundhir said, "No, by Allah we won't accept this. But there must be a ruler from us and a ruler from you." Abu Bakr said, "No, we will be the rulers and you will be the ministers, for they (i.e. Quarish) are the best family amongst the 'Arabs and of best origin.

    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/62/19

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      Re: Are (YOU) a racist ?

      Originally posted by Spicen View Post
      Weak line of argument. Being given superiority doesn't make each and everyone of the tribe immune from hell. But it does give special perks to the muslims of Quraysh that is inaccessible to other muslims based purely on tribal lineage.

      And now that we have established that according to hadiths Arab race is superior to other races, what does that say about the "argument" that racism has no place in Islam?
      The only reason why Arab race is superior to other races is because the prophet pbuh was an Arab, that does not mean that Arab Muslims are superior to non Arab Muslims.

      The prophet pbuh said: All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.

      ...
      Last edited by Muslim9281; 18-05-17, 09:02 AM.

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        Re: Are (YOU) a racist ?

        Originally posted by Spicen View Post
        The Prophet(S) said that the matter of ruling belongs to the Quraysh and even if there are two people left in the world, the ruler should still be Quraysh.

        On one occasion the Prophet(S) said to some Ansari people, "You are the most beloved to me." There are other examples.

        As for Yemen, the Prophet(S) said, "Faith is from Yemen." There are various other sayings regarding yemeni people.
        I am of the opinion nowadays these hadiths are fabricated by Arabs during their golden days. Can't prove it directly but the effects and results of such hadith are present in the Arabs and the Arab world.

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          Re: Are (YOU) a racist ?

          Originally posted by Bidrohi Ronoklanto View Post
          I am of the opinion nowadays these hadiths are fabricated by Arabs during their golden days. Can't prove it directly but the effects and results of such hadith are present in the Arabs and the Arab world.
          Holding such an opinion is heretical and many would say disbelief altogether.

          Comment


            Re: Are (YOU) a racist ?

            Originally posted by Spicen View Post
            The following is actually from Sahih Muslim and not frm Bukhari which I read, but hopefully it will do for now.

            https://sunnah.com/muslim/33

            It has been narrarted on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
            People are subservient to the Quraish: the Muslims among them being subservient to the Muslims among them, and the disbelievers among the people being subservient to the disbelievers among them.

            Reference : Sahih Muslim 1818 a
            In-book reference : Book 33, Hadith 1
            USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 20, Hadith 4473

            It has been narrated on the authority of Hammam b. Munabbih who said:
            This is one of the traditions narrated by Abu Huraira from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who said: People are subservient to the Quraish: the Muslims among them being subservient to the Muslims among them, and the disbelievers among them being subservient to the disbelievers among them.


            Reference : Sahih Muslim 1818 b
            In-book reference : Book 33, Hadith 2
            USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 20, Hadith 4474
            (deprecated numbering scheme)

            It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

            The Caliphate will remain among the Quraish even if only two persons are left (on the earth),


            Reference : Sahih Muslim 1820
            In-book reference : Book 33, Hadith 4
            USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 20, Hadith 4476
            (deprecated numbering scheme)
            This provides a guideline for a hierarchy in society. Firstly a hierarchy among Muslims, then a hierarchy among Muslims and Kuffar. The hierarchy was implemented during the Umayyad era.

            One can say, the umayyad implemented the hierarchy based on the above ahadith, one can also argue umayyad implemented the hierarchy as per their whims and then legitimized it by fabricating hadith. I believe the latter to be correct. The hierarchy is present, alive and vigorously practiced by Arabs even today, even the Arabs who were born and brought up in the western world did not forego it. Alas, the donkeys, the azmi salves of Arabs recite these ahadith with glazed eyes, with reverence.

            Comment


              Re: Are (YOU) a racist ?

              Originally posted by Spicen View Post
              Holding such an opinion is heretical and many would say disbelief altogether.
              Yeah I know. I don't care what someone thinks about my iman. My iman or kufr is not dependent on someone's opinion.

              EDIT: One can also argue that Arabs foresaw people questioning such hierarchy, so they made it into hadith and added a penalty to challenge the hadith (i.e. you are a disbeliever).

              You know how rulers and some ruling elite use religion to secure their privilege, all people of all religions for centuires did it. These ahadith and being called a kafir for challenging it has all the hallmarks of using religion for an outcome written all over it.
              Last edited by Bidrohi Ronoklanto; 21-05-17, 09:38 AM.

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                Re: Are (YOU) a racist ?

                Originally posted by Bidrohi Ronoklanto View Post
                This provides a guideline for a hierarchy in society. Firstly a hierarchy among Muslims, then a hierarchy among Muslims and Kuffar. The hierarchy was implemented during the Umayyad era.

                One can say, the umayyad implemented the hierarchy based on the above ahadith, one can also argue umayyad implemented the hierarchy as per their whims and then legitimized it by fabricating hadith. I believe the latter to be correct. The hierarchy is present, alive and vigorously practiced by Arabs even today, even the Arabs who were born and brought up in the western world did not forego it. Alas, the donkeys, the azmi salves of Arabs recite these ahadith with glazed eyes, with reverence.
                Yeah well don't blame me for getting banned again for espousing heretical beliefs.

                Comment


                  Re: Are (YOU) a racist ?

                  Originally posted by Spicen View Post
                  Yeah well don't blame me for getting banned again for espousing heretical beliefs.
                  I won't, I am responsible my own actions.

                  Comment

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