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Upbringing and Salafism

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by abdurrahman View Post
    I made some research about this, and this is what I found
    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/3297...lamic-vs-bidah
    And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.

    (Sahih International's Interpretation of al-Qur'an, Surah Ali' Imran, Ayah 132)
    Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As:

    that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Indeed Allah does not take away knowledge by removing it from the people, but He takes away knowledge by taking the scholars, until there remains no scholar and the people begin to ask the ignorant leaders, so they give their verdict without knowledge. They will go astray and lead the people astray."

    - Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2652; Imam at-Tirmidhi rates it soundly authentic.
    Narrated Ibn `Umar:

    The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen." The People said, "And also on our Najd." He said, "O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen." The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! And also on our Najd." I think the third time the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "There (in Najd) is the place of earthquakes and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head of Satan."

    - Sahih al-Bukhari 7094; Chapter: The Saying of the Prophet Sallahu Alayhi Wa Salam "The Tribulation will come from the East"

    Imam al-Bukhari writes his own chapter titles.
    Hudhaifa bin al-Yaman Radiyallahu An said that the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam said:

    Verily, I fear about a man from you who will read the Qur'an so much that his face will become enlightened and he will come to personify Islam. This will continue until Allah desires. Then these things will be taken away from him when he will disregard them by putting them all behind his back and will attack his neighbor with the sword accusing him of Shirk. The Prophet peace be upon him was asked, "which of the two will be deserving of such an accusation? - The attacker or the attacked?" The Prophet replied, "the attacker (the one accusing the other of Shirk)"

    - Tarikh ul Kabir 4/301, Sahih ibn Hibban, (w/ Tahqiq Nasir Albani), 1/200, Hadith 81. (al-Albani said: 'this hadith is hasan'), Tafsir Ibn Kathir 2/266. (Ibn Kathir Rahimullah Alay rated the hadith "jayyid" i.e. "good").

    Text from Sahih Ibn Hibban.
    I quoted to you a Hadith and its authentication whilst you quoted the saying of a man who lives more than 1400 years after RasulAllah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam, who I can show you contradicts the men who came before him.

    You started this discussion by saying you follow just the Qur'an and Sunnah.

    You then admit you follow men, I asked you why you follow those men, and you couldn't answer.

    You then asked me for evidence for something - and since you told me you only follow Qur'an and Sunnah - I provided you with a Hadith.

    In response, rather than verifying the references etc., you went and found a fatwa of a man whose reliability you cannot prove to me, and he misquotes the Qur'an talking about the Mushrikin calling upon the Idols and applies it to the one who goes and asks the dead to make dua to Allah for him - when the verses he quotes do not say that - it is his inference and what he says contradicts the Hadith I quoted to you.

    He is like the man prophesised in the Hadith above. In fact he is likely the follower of that man.

    So let me put a question to you, o follower of the Qur'an and Sunnah, why do you oppose a clear Hadith for the opinion of a man?

    So admit it - you don't follow just the Qur'an and Sunnah, you follow the interpretation of the Qur'an and Sunnah according to men who you follow for no particular reason.


    There are others who follow other men - why do you say they are wrong if you are doing the same things as them?

    Leave a comment:


  • ameera_ali
    replied
    Originally posted by abdurrahman View Post
    I dont follow any scholar blindly. I always go for a proof from the Qur'an or Sunnah. When I was new to Islam I used to Listen to People like Mufti Menk, Yasir Qadhi, Nouman Ali Khan, Hamza yusuf, Omar suleimsn and their likes, but when I realised how they are trying to westernize Islam I choose not to Listen to them.
    Islam was made for all cultures and centuries. Which part of the world do you reside and/or spent most of your life?

    These are all popular shuyookh. People make mistakes. We're all human. You take the good and leave the bad. I don't agree with all of them, but I can assure you they're not trying to change anything about Islam.

    Leave a comment:


  • abdurrahman
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    I did not give what position I adhered to - that's beyond the point of the conversation. I said that the person I mentioned is not a disbeliever as they ask someone to make dua to Allah for them. You can believe it is prohibited to do so with your evidences, but you cannot say that it is shirk for someone to ask someone else, dead or alive, to make dua for them. By Shirk I mean worshipping other than Allah - this takes one out of the fold of Islam.

    Regarding whether asking the dead to make dua for you is permissible then if you want to I can provide you with evidence, but its a fiqhi matter with reasonable grounds for disagreement, as one can cite other evidences etc.

    Those who support the position of permissibility of asking the dead to make dua for you cite, amongst other Hadith, the following:



    Imam Ibn Abi Shaybah Rahimullah Alay (d. 235 H) was an Early Muhaddith, and the teacher of Imam al-Bukhari and his Musannaf is an earlier work of Hadith containing a large amount of reports (it is the largest primary Hadith collection).

    Imam al-Bayhaqi Rahimullah Alay (d. 458 H) was a later Muhaddith, famous for his Sunnan work which is amongst the last primary Hadith collections (i.e. collections with chains from the author to the Prophet Alayhis Salam/ Sahabah). The work where he mentions this Hadith is a work known as "Proofs of Prophethood" as the above incident is also regarded as a miracle.

    Imam Ibn Kathir Rahimullah Alay (d. 774 H) is the famous historian, hadith scholar and mufassir. He was a student of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam ad-Dhahabi and Imam al-Mizzi etc.
    I made some research about this, and this is what I found

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/3297...lamic-vs-bidah

    Leave a comment:


  • abdurrahman
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    I did not give what position I adhered to - that's beyond the point of the conversation. I said that the person I mentioned is not a disbeliever as they ask someone to make dua to Allah for them. You can believe it is prohibited to do so with your evidences, but you cannot say that it is shirk for someone to ask someone else, dead or alive, to make dua for them. By Shirk I mean worshipping other than Allah - this takes one out of the fold of Islam.

    Regarding whether asking the dead to make dua for you is permissible then if you want to I can provide you with evidence, but its a fiqhi matter with reasonable grounds for disagreement, as one can cite other evidences etc.

    Those who support the position of permissibility of asking the dead to make dua for you cite, amongst other Hadith, the following:



    Imam Ibn Abi Shaybah Rahimullah Alay (d. 235 H) was an Early Muhaddith, and the teacher of Imam al-Bukhari and his Musannaf is an earlier work of Hadith containing a large amount of reports (it is the largest primary Hadith collection).

    Imam al-Bayhaqi Rahimullah Alay (d. 458 H) was a later Muhaddith, famous for his Sunnan work which is amongst the last primary Hadith collections (i.e. collections with chains from the author to the Prophet Alayhis Salam/ Sahabah). The work where he mentions this Hadith is a work known as "Proofs of Prophethood" as the above incident is also regarded as a miracle.

    Imam Ibn Kathir Rahimullah Alay (d. 774 H) is the famous historian, hadith scholar and mufassir. He was a student of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam ad-Dhahabi and Imam al-Mizzi etc.
    jazakAllah for the answer.

    I'll check this.

    Leave a comment:


  • abdurrahman
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    How do you know to even trust this Abdullah Faisal in the first place?

    You have not told me what makes a scholar a scholar of the truth. I asked you and you said,



    But now you are admitting that doesn't make one a scholar of the truth. So what does?

    Something tells me that you do not follow just the Qur'an and Sunnah as you claim...

    How do you know these mere men are conveying to you the truth? Does anyone who picks up the Qur'an and and quotes from the Sunnah become a person of the truth? Or is it the first person you go to who pleases your Nafs?
    I dont follow any scholar blindly. I always go for a proof from the Qur'an or Sunnah. When I was new to Islam I used to Listen to People like Mufti Menk, Yasir Qadhi, Nouman Ali Khan, Hamza yusuf, Omar suleimsn and their likes, but when I realised how they are trying to westernize Islam I choose not to Listen to them.

    Last edited by abdurrahman; 26-11-20, 12:23 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by abdurrahman View Post
    No that doesnt mean he is a scholar of truth, but also it doesnt mean he is not sincere.

    Brother Abdullah Faisal has a lecture "47 signs of a wicked scholar". You can find it on archive.org
    How do you know to even trust this Abdullah Faisal in the first place?

    You have not told me what makes a scholar a scholar of the truth. I asked you and you said,

    Most of scholars whom I follow were imprisoned for preaching the true message of Islam. There is no such a scholar who will accept such a test for speaking the truth except the truthful ones who want to please their Lord and not People.
    But now you are admitting that doesn't make one a scholar of the truth. So what does?

    Something tells me that you do not follow just the Qur'an and Sunnah as you claim...

    How do you know these mere men are conveying to you the truth? Does anyone who picks up the Qur'an and and quotes from the Sunnah become a person of the truth? Or is it the first person you go to who pleases your Nafs?
    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 26-11-20, 10:59 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by abdurrahman View Post
    I am sure asking the dead to make du'a for you is not permissible. If you think its permissible give your proofs which I dont think you can.
    I did not give what position I adhered to - that's beyond the point of the conversation. I said that the person I mentioned is not a disbeliever as they ask someone to make dua to Allah for them. You can believe it is prohibited to do so with your evidences, but you cannot say that it is shirk for someone to ask someone else, dead or alive, to make dua for them. By Shirk I mean worshipping other than Allah - this takes one out of the fold of Islam.

    Regarding whether asking the dead to make dua for you is permissible then if you want to I can provide you with evidence, but its a fiqhi matter with reasonable grounds for disagreement, as one can cite other evidences etc.

    Those who support the position of permissibility of asking the dead to make dua for you cite, amongst other Hadith, the following:

    Sayyiduna Malik al-Dar, the treasurer of food during the time of Sayyiduna ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (radiyallahu ‘anhu), reports that once the people had been experiencing a drought in the era of Sayyiduna ‘Umar (radiyallahu ‘anhu), a man went to the grave of Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam) and said,

    ‘O Rasulullah, ask for rain on behalf of your ummah, for verily, they are being destroyed.’

    Thereafter this person was instructed in a dream to go to Sayyiduna ‘Umar (radiyallahu ‘anhu) and tell him that, ‘the rains will soon come and say to him, Be intelligent’, When ‘Umar Radiyallahu Anhu was informed of this, he began to cry and he said, ‘O My Lord, I will only leave out what I am unable to do.’

    - Musannaf ibn Abi Shaybah 12/31-32; Dala’il Al-nubuwwah of Imam al-Bayhaqi 7/47

    Hafiz Ibn Kathir Rahimullah Alay has stated that the chain of narrators is "good and strong"

    - Musnad al-Faruq 1/223
    Imam Ibn Abi Shaybah Rahimullah Alay (d. 235 H) was an Early Muhaddith, and the teacher of Imam al-Bukhari and his Musannaf is an earlier work of Hadith containing a large amount of reports (it is the largest primary Hadith collection).

    Imam al-Bayhaqi Rahimullah Alay (d. 458 H) was a later Muhaddith, famous for his Sunnan work which is amongst the last primary Hadith collections (i.e. collections with chains from the author to the Prophet Alayhis Salam/ Sahabah). The work where he mentions this Hadith is a work known as "Proofs of Prophethood" as the above incident is also regarded as a miracle.

    Imam Ibn Kathir Rahimullah Alay (d. 774 H) is the famous historian, hadith scholar and mufassir. He was a student of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam ad-Dhahabi and Imam al-Mizzi etc.
    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 26-11-20, 11:20 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • abdurrahman
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    Shaykh Sa'id Nursi was also imprisoned for preaching Islam. Therefore he is a scholar of the truth, right?
    No that doesnt mean he is a scholar of truth, but also it doesnt mean he is not sincere.

    Brother Abdullah Faisal has a lecture "47 signs of a wicked scholar". You can find it on archive.org

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by abdurrahman View Post
    Most of scholars whom I follow were imprisoned for preaching the true message of Islam. There is no such a scholar who will accept such a test for speaking the truth except the truthful ones who want to please their Lord and not People.
    Shaykh Sa'id Nursi was also imprisoned for preaching Islam. Therefore he is a scholar of the truth, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • abdurrahman
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    Making dua to a dead person is Shirk.

    Asking a dead person to make dua for you (I.e. asking them to make dua to Allah) is not Shirk. Whether it is permissible or not is a reasonable ground for difference of opinion (though the vast majority say it is). Some believe the dead can hear and others believe they can't. Allah is capable of all things.
    I am sure asking the dead to make du'a for you is not permissible. If you ask a dead person for dua it means you believe he can hear you and such an attribute belongs to Allah alone.
    Last edited by abdurrahman; 26-11-20, 10:09 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • abdurrahman
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    How do you know they are sincere?
    Most of scholars whom I follow were imprisoned for preaching the true message of Islam. There is no such a scholar who will accept such a test for speaking the truth except the truthful ones who want to please their Lord and not People.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by abdurrahman View Post


    There must be someone whom I take knowledge from otherwise how can I learn the correct interpretation by myself? I follow scholars who are sincere and the best way to know whether they are scholars of truth is to compare their speech to the Qur'an and Sunnah.
    How do you know they are sincere?

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by abdurrahman View Post




    I dont know which sect do you follow, but I do believe making du'a to a dead person is an act of worship which makes a person out of Islam. Going to graves and worshipping them, making oath to other than Allah, slaughtering in the name other than Allah...etc, I do believe these are all nullifiers of Islam.
    Making dua to a dead person is Shirk.

    Asking a dead person to make dua for you (I.e. asking them to make dua to Allah) is not Shirk. Whether it is permissible or not is a reasonable ground for difference of opinion (though the vast majority say it is). Some believe the dead can hear and others believe they can't. Allah is capable of all things.

    Tawassul is the second one.

    Worshipping a grave is Shirk, although an action is differentiated from belief by ignorance e.g. If some ignorant person goes and bows down in front of a grave to show respect (not worship) this is not Shirk but obviously this is Haram. This ignorant person should be taught it is an act of worship and told to stop doing this, but their blood does not become Halal. If they then insist it is permitted or it is apparent they are doing this not as some misguided gesture of respect, but instead worship then they commit Shirk.
    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 26-11-20, 09:31 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • abdurrahman
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    What??!

    Do you follow other than Allah's book and the Sunnah!?

    Wow what an innovator... You follow men and their opinions? What is this Alim you speak of?

    You said you only follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, right?

    Tell me brother, how do you know these scholars you follow are upon the truth? Why - they could be teaching you Shirk and you not knowing any better would consider it Tawhid.

    Only the Qur'an and the Sunnah is the truth, right?

    Allah knows, is it mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah to follow Shaykh Foolan etc.?

    So why do you follow them?

    There must be someone whom I take knowledge from otherwise how can I learn the correct interpretation by myself? I follow scholars who are sincere and the best way to know whether they are scholars of truth is to compare their speech to the Qur'an and Sunnah.

    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    Your answer to the first question is interesting - but you did not provide Dalil from Qur'an and Sunnah though you claimed to just follow them.
    I am not sure on this, but I think there is a hadith which states that the khilafah will be established in the lands of Syria and Iraq. Allah knows best!

    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    Your answer to the second question was not an answer. Better to not answer than to answer without knowing, so you did the right thing. The correct answer would be that the Qurayshi Pagan, whether an original disbeliever or not, is a Qurayshi therefore the Jizya is not taken from him. Rather we ask him to accept Islam and take the Shahadah, and if he doesn't...

    Then he is put to death.



    The people are clearly the Arabs.


    As for the Hejazi Arab of Ethiopian descent, I did not mention anything that entails disbelief or shirk. Jizya cannot be taken from the Mu'min.
    I dont know which sect do you follow, but I do believe making du'a to a dead person is an act of worship which makes a person out of Islam. Going to graves and worshipping them, making oath to other than Allah, slaughtering in the name other than Allah...etc, I do believe these are all nullifiers of Islam.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by abdurrahman View Post
    Following the Qur'an and Sunnah doesnt make me an alim. I just try to follow the scholars who are upon the truth and I take knowledge from them.
    What??!

    Do you follow other than Allah's book and the Sunnah!?

    Wow what an innovator... You follow men and their opinions? What is this Alim you speak of?

    You said you only follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, right?

    Tell me brother, how do you know these scholars you follow are upon the truth? Why - they could be teaching you Shirk and you not knowing any better would consider it Tawhid.

    Only the Qur'an and the Sunnah is the truth, right?

    Allah knows, is it mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah to follow Shaykh Foolan etc.?

    So why do you follow them?

    As for your first question, I believe khilafah should be established in an Arab country, as for your second question I guess jizyah is only for the original kuffar (kafir asli) and not for the apostates. And Allah knows best!
    Your answer to the first question is interesting - but you did not provide Dalil from Qur'an and Sunnah though you claimed to just follow them.

    Your answer to the second question was not an answer. Better to not answer than to answer without knowing, so you did the right thing. The correct answer would be that the Qurayshi Pagan, whether an original disbeliever or not, is a Qurayshi therefore the Jizya is not taken from him. Rather we ask him to accept Islam and take the Shahadah, and if he doesn't...

    Then he is put to death.

    Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

    Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

    - Sahih al-Bukhari 25
    The people are clearly the Arabs.


    As for the Hejazi Arab of Ethiopian descent, I did not mention anything that entails disbelief or shirk. Jizya cannot be taken from the Mu'min.

    Ahl "at-Tasawwuf" are two groups:
    1. Ahl at-Tazkiya - Those who focus on Ihsan mentioned by RasulAllah Alayhis Salam from Hadith Jibreel (e.g. Sahih Muslim Hadith 1) They are the ascetics, people of Zuhd, like Imam Ahmad who wrote Kitab az-Zuhd. They follow the five pillars of Islam, the six pillars of Iman and then worship Allah as if they are seeing him and if they do not see him. They abide by the Sharia and oppose the innovations. They purify the hearts and are kind with their brothers and firm against their enemies. They were the foremost in Jihad and in Dawah, spreading Islam. They are the Mu'arifin. They are the true "Sufis". Perhaps some of them do not even use that term given the negative conotation it has. The sign of them is Dhikr. They are those who desire Wajh Allah. Go and read some of Al-Adab al-Mufrad by Imam al-Bukhari to see this Tasawwuf.
    2. The Fake Claimants - Those who leave the Sharia and start permitting anything following their desires. They dance to vulgar music not only permitting such things but also as an act of worship and hold beliefs that are sometimes mere innovation and are at other times Kufr. For instance they open up the books of the Mystics which should not be read and they start believing that Allah and his creation are one - known is Monism - which is kufr. They then start believing all religions are equally true and other nonsense. Leave these people.

    The term "Tasawwuf" is an innovated term, like the term "Aqeedah", or "Tawhid ar-Rububiyyah". If you follow only the Qur'an and Sunnah you should not use any of these.

    I have doubts as to whether you follow only the Qur'an and Sunnah... You used this term "Kafir Asli". Please tell me where you got this from.

    Leave a comment:

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