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Why do Christians believe God took on flesh and lived amongst us?

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  • carol_au
    replied
    Re: Why do Christians believe God took on flesh and lived amongst us?

    Originally posted by Immanuel View Post
    what happened?
    I started listening instead of talking all the time Immanuel..

    Leave a comment:


  • Immanuel
    replied
    Re: Why do Christians believe God took on flesh and lived amongst us?

    Originally posted by carol_au View Post
    This is in response to Abu. Bakr's questions..

    Abu. Bakr asked why God came to earth. why did He take on human form. It's a very good question because it is the key to whether or not I am commiting Shirk.

    Let me try and explain

    What is the purpose of religion? Why are you a Muslim? Why am I a Christian? Isn't it because we want to follow God? We are both very aware that there is more to this world than just the physical world we see around us. So you have found God through Islam and I through Christianity.

    So where do we go to find the true faith? Why do I believe that belief that Jesus is the way and the truth and the only way to eternal life? More importantly, why do I believe He is more than a Prophet, but is God Himself come in the flesh to live on this earth that He created, amongst those He created?

    We all want to know the Truth and true Religion will call away all doubt when God reveals Himself to us, don't you agree? We all know that God is superior to us in every way and yet in our heart we want to know Him and to follow Him.

    Jesus said in Matthew 11 He came to reveal the Father to us.. He came to make God known to us. Jesus' coming has done three things for any human who craves to know God and to obey Him

    1. Humans can experience God at work in their lives, revealing Himself to us.
    2. WE can know intimate relationship with Him
    3. We can be released of all uncertainty including where we will spend eternity.

    Jesus teachings focused on all these things.. but Jesus said to us that God is Holy.. and to be in relationship with Him, to know Him, and to be released of all uncertainty in our lives, we must be like Him also.

    When we were created we were in perfect relationship to Him and in this relationship we were considered sinless. Adam and Eve followed God's Sharia perfectly until sin entered the world, firstly through the first act of disobedience that we read about in Genesis 1 and then through the sins each one of us commit each day.

    To return to the perfect state we were in at creation, there are some things that are necessary

    1. The removal of the attitude of saying "no" to God. I think this is the strength of Islam. Islam has as it's basic action. submission an attitude of never saying no to God. .. but is this submission enough?
    2. The re-establishment of the original attitude of saying "yes to God." which Jesus calls New birth or being born again.
    3. The removal of our basic willingness to give Satan the right to rule our lives. Even Muslims know his role now is to destroy believers relationship with God.. Satan brings division, false beliefs, hatred, murder (yes, I believe He is the source of all the things you have said in the other threads about actions that are not "muslim" actions. He is the source of all actions that are not "christian" actions as well. Jesus said He had come to bring life, and to bring obedience not to a lot of rules and regulations, but to a heavenly law or Shariah that is set up in the heart of man.

    How did God's coming in flesh make this all happen?

    1. I've been told my life is not in submission to God because I refuse to acknowledge that there is a messenger called Muhammad who is a greater messenger than Jesus Himself. Jesus said we must come to the Father through Him and only as He reveals the Father to us can we know the Father. Jesus said that we must believe He is is the Way to the Father.

    This means that all the previous ways did not lead us to God. They led us away from God. It says that in the past God has spoken to us through His written word and His spoken word through the prophets, but Jesus also said that people refused to listen to the prophets. They had the Law and Prophets but they refused to listen and to obey. So now, God Himself is delivering His own message (Hebrews 1)

    So reason number one that Jesus came is to deliver His own message to us.. . no more would He use just humans who would be ignored by humans.. Now He would come Himself to deliver it.

    2. If simply believing in a religion is not true submission to God.. the act of saying yes to Him, then what is?

    Most religions rely on what they do as a measure of how submissive they are to God. They have a list of religious duties that must be followed to "prove" that a person is submitted to God. Yet, God declared that our own efforts to say yes to Him will never be good enough for His holiness to accept.

    Satan is not stronger than God, but He is stronger than humans and he is putting a huge pressure on humans to keep them away from truth. He will even use religious activities (including Christian ones) to keep people from listening to truth and submitting to it. (Hebrews 2:14)

    If Submission is impossible to produce the "good" enough we need to find God's mercy, then what can be done about it? The Bible declares that before the foundation of the world, before your creation or mine, God had already decided that as this was going to be the result of giving man free will (the right to choose to say yes or no to God) then something must be done or mankind would be eternally doomed. It says that before creation, Jesus was the Lamb slain.. what this means is that God decided on how to restore mankind before mankind was even created.

    But why death? It states in the OT Torah that the wages of sin is death.. the soul that sins will surely die. This principle is the principle of life that is part of God's own character. Jesus said that He had come to be a ransom for many. What does it mean to be a ransom for many? (Matthew 20)

    To understand this, you must understand the concept of propitiation..

    Would you mind if I link you to this website?

    http://www.frontlinemin.org/propitiation.asp

    propitiation is absolutely basic to the reason why Jesus came..






    I will leave this now and return tomorrow as I am tired and busy with home duties

    talk about this and we will talk more tomorrow

    blessings
    *
    what happened?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu.Bakr
    replied
    Originally posted by Zenobia
    Hi,

    Not all Christians believe Jesus is God, my parents blieve that Jesus is the son of God, and was with God in heaven, as a spirit creature but not a 'god', before he came to earth.
    There is no doubt that the most important thing in religion is God. All religions are based on God/s. My question is, if the Christians can't decide what Jesus was, who God was, and what they had in common, whether they were one, or 2, or 3, than how are we, as Muslims expected to take the religion seriously? I honestly mean no disrespect by this but I have heard so many theories about Jesus and God from Christians that I have almost given up hope in trying to understand. Everything you people are telling me, the bible says the complete opposite. Alot of Muslims are becoming more and more confused about why you claim Jesus is God, or the son, or whatever other opinions you hold.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zenobia
    replied
    Not all Christians...

    Hi,

    Not all Christians believe Jesus is God, my parents blieve that Jesus is the son of God, and was with God in heaven, as a spirit creature but not a 'god', before he came to earth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Moayidd
    replied
    Originally posted by MAsood
    Moayidd,

    Thanks for the great points and references. I laughed at the first one, because the first page of my notebook says in huge letters, WHY 3? That's definitely one of the things I wonder about.

    Again I don't necessarily believe in the trinity, but I don't dismiss it as a theory. It's certainly viable. Just because pre-christian pagans believed in multiple incarnations or persons of divine nature, doesn't mean they were wrong necessarily. They may have guessed that part right even as they got the details wrong. I'm not saying that's what I believe at this point, but I certainly can't rule it out. Certainly other ancient civilizations had interesting and valuable insights into the world around them.


    Certainly the history of all religious texts is controversial. The question is whether the Bible or any other text was changed enough for the meaning to be substantially different.

    In the case of the Bible, I have no doubt certain specifics changed, especially with the multiple languages, but I'm not convinced from the evidence I've read that the changes rise to the level of a significant problem.

    Having said that, even if the stories of Jesus and His parables and sayings were completely fabricated, they are still pretty valuable in the sense that they are, in my opinion, a very good story for people to get moral lessons from. If it isn't a real story, then whoever wrote it did a nice job. So at least I look at it that way.

    I'm not Christian, by the way, because I haven't decided how I feel on the divinity issue or the origin and history of the Bible. Although the Bible is a major focus of my research right now.
    [/quote]
    Hello MAsood,

    I realized you werent a chrstian and thats why you were pondering not stating.
    I came from Atheism to Islam then deeper into Islam than most muslims go.
    I won't waste your time with why the Qur'an is the real message because I am sure you have heard it all before. I will just relate to you the results of my long intellectual, scriptural and spiritual journey with islam, religion and God very breifly.
    We were created to know God. Know as in experience him even if we don't beleive in him (V 51.56). How do you experience God if you don't know him or even beleive in him unless he is everything around you ? We are all manifestations of Allah in varying degrees, we each have The merciful, the compassionate, the Just and so on in us in varying degrees and it is those degrees that dictate the kind of characters we are. Prophets/messengers of Allah are direct manifestations of Allahs attributes/names.
    The purpose of religion is to make us better worshippers of Allah. The higher the concept of Allah you hold, the higher form of worshipper you are. The more total/abstract or above need/limits/restrictions a concept of God you have, the higher a worshipper you are.
    Some insist on a physical tangible seeable entiry that they can point at and say = that is God. Pagans did it, star/sun/moon worshippers did it. Some can live with a more advanced/sophisticated form like Man or Mythical beast. Some are even higher who hold the view that God is ON and uncomprehendable but is seperate from Creation. This is the highest yet but still limited/ Most mopnotheistic religions are of, or at least think they are of that view. The truth, in my opinion is, the highest and truest concept is what the Islamic prhase 'La Iallaha Illa Allah' really means: - There is nothing in Existence EXCEPT Allah.

    .

    Leave a comment:


  • Moayidd
    replied
    Originally posted by bushbadee
    Because they are basically pagans.
    Who are basically Pagans ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu.Bakr
    replied
    Yusuf Ali is the most popular. Ibn Khathir is the best for interpretation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu.Bakr
    Different translations? Such as?
    Ali, Asad, and one printed by the Saudi govt that someone brought me from Mecca. I have Pickthal somewhere downstairs, and I also have it on my computer. I use the USC MSA online database when I want to look up something specific.

    Any other recommendations? These are the ones that have been recommended to me over the years.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu.Bakr
    replied
    The former Christians I was referring to were actually 2 close friends of mine. If you wish I can give you their contact details so you may discuss religion with them to a further extent.

    And if that is not enough, I have contact details of about 10 other brothers and my fiance who are also reverts.

    They all know the bible and Quranic text in great detail so they might be able to be of great assistance InshaAllah.

    It is upto you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu.Bakr
    They are questions directed to the Christians, from a former Christian.
    Interesting, in the real world (not cyberspace), I have a couple of good friends who were raised Muslims, and are now Christians and other friends who were raised Christian who are now Muslim. Makes for interesting conversation.

    I take it your former church did not have adequate answers to your questions when you were a member of that church. What church were you a part of (what denomination), if you don't mind me asking?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu.Bakr
    replied
    Originally posted by MAsood
    And I do keep a few different translations of the Qu'ran handy
    Different translations? Such as?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu.Bakr
    MAsood you come across as an open minded person. You have only spoken about researching the Christian faith. I mean no offence to the bible but the stories about the prophets are also included in the Quran. We believe the Quran is more valid and is 100% the word of God, this is why it has not been changed.
    Yes, I understand your belief certainly. I was raised Muslim, of course. And I do keep a few different translations of the Qu'ran handy, and I do frequently cross reference those in my studies of the different Christian churches.

    Again, I appreciate listening to (or in this case reading) Muslims points of view on these matters. Thanks.

    You give me too much credit by saying I am open-minded. :) You'll see from other threads on this site, that I do have strong opinions on other things. But this issue I can tell you sincerely I am open-minded about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu.Bakr
    replied
    Originally posted by MAsood
    I'm not sure if those questions are directed at me.
    They are questions directed to the Christians, from a former Christian.

    Originally posted by MAsood
    someone who has been trying to revert me back to Islam. And of course, my family are Muslim and a lot of my friends, so I have a general interest in Islam.
    Your loss :)

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu.Bakr
    replied
    MAsood you come across as an open minded person. You have only spoken about researching the Christian faith. I mean no offence to the bible but the stories about the prophets are also included in the Quran. We believe the Quran is more valid and is 100% the word of God, this is why it has not been changed.

    As I have said before -

    According to the bibles, Prophet Noah is said to have become drunk and stumbling down naked while his son sees him, so he curses his son and all of his descendants. Prophet Lut is made drunk by his daughters than commits incest with them. Prophet David see's a man's wife, commits adultery with her than sends the man to the front lines of the battle so he may be killed and so he could have the man's wife. Prophet Solomon, in his old age is encouraged by his wives to worship idles, which he does. These are the stories of the prophets in the Christian bibles. My point is, we 100% refute anything that is in it.
    I have heard a priest say that when it comes to historical facts, he prefers the Quran over the bible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mace
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu.Bakr
    I guess the question is asked once again, Why would God come to the Earth? Jesus was called a Prophet in the Gospel, MANY times.

    Also, another question I have is why would God need to come to Earth? You guys say that God needs to feel the pain that us humans do, this implies God is not complete and He does not have full knowledge.

    You say God died for our sins, fulfilling the sacrifice traditional to Judaism. I dunno how you can say that God came to Earth to be killed. There is too much wrong with that statement to even start on.

    Also, the infamous John 3:16 says says that God sent his only son because he loved the world so much.

    The first thing this verse shows us is that Jesus was sent by God, not that he was God. Second it tries to say that God is showing us He loves us by sending him; this can be understood in a few ways.

    Their is much proof in the bible which says that we are accountable for our sins, than what's with Jesus dying for them?

    And what about the original sin? You say everyone is born with sin because of Adam. So Jesus has to die for us to clear that sin. Yet earlier in the Bible it says that noone is responsible for the sin of their ancestors. It seems like you are making things up to suit yourselves.

    Jesus says about God in John 5:37 "The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form."

    I think you can guess where I'm going with this. Now if I was standing in front of you and saying "You have never seen Abu Bakr and never heard his voice, what would you think?

    Anyway, may Allah guide us all.
    I'm not sure if those questions are directed at me. If so, I should point out I'm not Christian. Christianity is something I have been studying for a few years now. But I am certainly not a scholar (I have a day job :) ) I could copy answers from my notes to your questions. But that's sort of meaningless these notes are not things that I necessarily believe. But I would refer you to the writings of Thomas Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo. I found Augustine's books to be pretty remarkable works.

    Again, I'm on this forum because I have a few friends who have read this forum and pointed me to it. One person, frankly, is someone who has been trying to revert me back to Islam. And of course, my family are Muslim and a lot of my friends, so I have a general interest in Islam.

    Leave a comment:

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